VM still output rate ALC verses Water

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VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Yummyrum »

Well if you’re like me , you’ve probably read more than a few times that a VM still will slow down towards the end and that this is due to Alc vapour being heavier than water and therefore that at the branch , or Tee , the water will not want to fall down hill into the condenser.

Now that part has always intrigued me . Surely , a Vapour Management still simply splits vapour regardless of its constituents , ….. it is proportioned dependant on the physical size of the port verses the column diameter .


Well its test time . :ebiggrin:

This is part one .
I am going to compare a typical 30%ABV charge to plain water in my VM and see what happens .

So first off , i want to see in Pot still mode how much vapour the boiler is creating from a 30% ABV charge .

I have removed the RC and capped the top . The VM valve is held wide open with a cable tie so no accidents .
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Once up to temp and drawn off about 300mls

take off rate (averaged over three readings ) is pretty damn close to 7l/hr ( thats a 2400w element )

OK ,now I slip the RC in the top , ball valve is still wide open …. Theoretically a 1:1 reflux ratio as I have a ball valve that equals the reducer Tee .
Poured all the collection from previous run back to boiler so same charge again. :egeek:

Measured output is 3.56 l/h ( again , average of three samples) ….. surprisingly pretty close to the 1:1 theoretical . :econfused: :econfused: :eugeek: :eugeek: :eugeek:…. That totally surprised me


Now the water run .

Pot still mode .

Collection rate was so close to 3l/h …. I’m calling it that .

Clearly , it takes more effort to boil water than Alcohol . So , the amount if vapour produced is less . …. Less than half that of Alcohol . And this also verifies why we see a gradual decline in takeoff rate as a run progresses .

Now the reflux mode .
Again , same setup as the first alcohol test with the valve fully open .

So based on what I got from the Alcohol run I would have predicted close to 1.5l/h .

Interestingly , the take off was 695ml/h …. I’ll call it 700ml/h .


This turned out to be less than half of what I expected . :think:

There does indeed seem to be less output from a VM when only water is in the boiler . It does not stop . … but it’s less .

The big question in my mind is , is it due to the gravity thing or something else :confusion-shrug:

If the split vapour out the tee went UP into a PC instead if down into a PC …. Will that change things ?
That is what I want to investigate next .

In summary from todays experiment:

Alcohol …7000ml/h in pot mode …… 3560ml/h valve wide open .
Water …..3000ml/h in pot mode ….… 700ml/h valve wide open .
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Rum Agol »

I think it could be due to the nature of the 2 different vapours. Ethanol vapour is denser than water vapour so this could account for the greater amount collected.
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by bluefish_dist »

Interesting results. I am really surprised that water output rate is half of the alcohol/water mix. I have never looked at the actual values of water vs alcohol for vapor creation. My observations have been that a vm will distill water, but they work better with alcohol. So they don’t really shut off as many claim, but instead slow down.
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Sulaiman »

I think that you are just seeing the effect of latent heat of evaporation,
100% ethanol 846 J/g
100% water 2256 J/g

ie 2.666 times more ethanol per minute than water at the same heating power.
At intermediate ethanol concentrations the rate difference will be between 1 and 2.666
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by NZPete »

That's surprising. The conventional wisdom is that if the vapor is turbulent, the max takeoff rate is determined by the cross sectional of the takeoff arm. If the vapor isn't turbulent, the head pressure (weight of vapor between takeoff and RC) comes into play. Given the reduction down to 1" and an input of 2400w I would have thought the vapor would be well and truly turbulent.

Numbers don't lie though!
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Yummyrum »

Rum Agol wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:22 pm I think it could be due to the nature of the 2 different vapours.
Indeed , they are behaving in different ways .
bluefish_dist wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:31 pm I am really surprised that water output rate is half of the alcohol/water mix.
Me too bluefish , I knew it was lower but not that low .
bluefish_dist wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:31 pm So they don’t really shut off as many claim, but instead slow down.
Yes that was interesting too . I’ve never bothered run so low after a run to find out and certainly never run straight water in VM either . So it was interesting to see that theory debunked .
Sulaiman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:47 pm I think that you are just seeing the effect of latent heat of evaporation,
100% ethanol 846 J/g
100% water 2256 J/g
Thanks for that Sulaiman . Yes that certainly explains the difference in vapour production between water and the alcohol / water mix in the boiler .
NZPete wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:18 am That's surprising. The conventional wisdom is that if the vapor is turbulent, the max takeoff rate is determined by the cross sectional of the takeoff arm.
It really is Pete , thats whats got me puzzled about this .
The Alcohol follows the Vapour Management model and with a 1:1 port verses column diameter , the vapour splits pretty much 1:1 .

Its the water vapour , which isn’t following the model .
It is basically splitting 1:3 .( 1 part come out and 3 parts go up to the Reflux condenser)!

You read over and over that the reason is that water vapour is lighter that alcohol vapour and
that the water vapour doesn’t want to fall down to the product condenser.

But if Alcohol vapour is heavier , then surely you would expect the opersite to happen at the start of a run , IE , with 1:1 vapour split , the alcohol would favour the port rather than go up to the RC . ….. but that does not happen .

So what is it about the water vapour ?

Yo debunk the water doesn’t want to flow down hill theory , I’d like to next try a PC that is uphill ( probably going to be more like a LM head with a fluid lock ) but the idea is that if it a gravity thing , then I should be able to get close to a 1:1 collection like I got with alcohol , if not , then theres something else going on with water vapour that won’t let it split like it should .
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by kimbodious »

What is the difference in the volume of ethanol vapour and water vapour at the same temperature, ah but it won’t be the same temperature anyway?
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Sulaiman »

If you set the reflux condenser water flowrate to get 1:1 with ethanol/water vapour,
then for water alone the RC will be less effective,
again due to latent heat of vapourisation ;)

To confirm or disprove, measure the temperature of the water leaving the RC for ethanol/water and for water only.
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by NZPete »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:28 am
Rum Agol wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:22 pm I think it could be due to the nature of the 2 different vapours.
Indeed , they are behaving in different ways .
bluefish_dist wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:31 pm I am really surprised that water output rate is half of the alcohol/water mix.
Me too bluefish , I knew it was lower but not that low .
bluefish_dist wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:31 pm So they don’t really shut off as many claim, but instead slow down.
Yes that was interesting too . I’ve never bothered run so low after a run to find out and certainly never run straight water in VM either . So it was interesting to see that theory debunked .
Sulaiman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:47 pm I think that you are just seeing the effect of latent heat of evaporation,
100% ethanol 846 J/g
100% water 2256 J/g
Thanks for that Sulaiman . Yes that certainly explains the difference in vapour production between water and the alcohol / water mix in the boiler .
NZPete wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:18 am That's surprising. The conventional wisdom is that if the vapor is turbulent, the max takeoff rate is determined by the cross sectional of the takeoff arm.
It really is Pete , thats whats got me puzzled about this .
The Alcohol follows the Vapour Management model and with a 1:1 port verses column diameter , the vapour splits pretty much 1:1 .

Its the water vapour , which isn’t following the model .
It is basically splitting 1:3 .( 1 part come out and 3 parts go up to the Reflux condenser)!

You read over and over that the reason is that water vapour is lighter that alcohol vapour and
that the water vapour doesn’t want to fall down to the product condenser.

But if Alcohol vapour is heavier , then surely you would expect the opersite to happen at the start of a run , IE , with 1:1 vapour split , the alcohol would favour the port rather than go up to the RC . ….. but that does not happen .

So what is it about the water vapour ?

Yo debunk the water doesn’t want to flow down hill theory , I’d like to next try a PC that is uphill ( probably going to be more like a LM head with a fluid lock ) but the idea is that if it a gravity thing , then I should be able to get close to a 1:1 collection like I got with alcohol , if not , then theres something else going on with water vapour that won’t let it split like it should .
I guess the difference may be that due to the reduced volume of water vapour the flow of water ISN'T turbulent, which means it rises due to gravity. I wonder if you increased the power to a level required to produce 7l/h if the flow would then be turbulent and evenly split?
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Yummyrum »

NZPete wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:50 pm wonder if you increased the power to a level required to produce 7l/h if the flow would then be turbulent and evenly split?
Great idea Pete :thumbup:
That would be an easy test . Just not sure my Reflux condenser can handle that amount of extra heat .Only one way to find out .
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Yummyrum »

Sulaiman wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:42 am If you set the reflux condenser water flowrate to get 1:1 with ethanol/water vapour,
then for water alone the RC will be less effective,
again due to latent heat of vapourisation
I’m using a VM .
1:1 reflux ratio is set by the physical port area verses the area to the reflux condenser above .It has nothing to do with coolant flow rate though the RC …. Thats CM talk

OK , if you are talking about over cooling of head , fair enough …. But .. that’s not happening . :ewink:, not that I'm aware of
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by kimbodious »

I dunno about this. Looking outside I see plenty of clouds of water vapour now that we are nearing the Wet Season in the Tropics. I think that you are only getting excess steam forced out the offtake because it has nowhere else to go.
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Yummyrum »

kimbodious wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:39 pm . I think that you are only getting excess steam forced out the offtake because it has nowhere else to go.
How so?

The Reflux coil above the takeoff port will condense all the steam that arrives at it and if it can’t condense it , it passes through it and out the top . There is no excess that forces it out the takeoff .

It goes out the takeoff simply because it finds a path out , just the same as the rest of the vapour that continues up to the reflux coil does .
Thats how the whole vapour management ( or proportioning) works . That is why a VM still can only have a mimimum of 1:1 reflux ratio , because the area of the takeoff port can only be as big as the column area .
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Setsumi »

Looking at your potstill comparison it shows that for the same energy input water release less vapour than the low wines. So Sulaiman's first comment makes sense.

In terms of the reflux output, both ethanol and water output is lower than the potstill. It shows that reflux return uses a lot of energy. And in an unpacked column all reflux return ends back in the pot. And remember the return will be cooler, so in the water experiment you have a bigger deficit to overcome before it will return to vapour. Or so it seems to me.
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

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Setsumi wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:39 pm In terms of the reflux output, both ethanol and water output is lower than the potstill. It shows that reflux return uses a lot of energy. And in an unpacked column all reflux return ends back in the pot. And remember the return will be cooler, so in the water experiment you have a bigger deficit to overcome before it will return to vapour. Or so it seems to me.
Thankyou Setsumi

I think you might be onto something here . I was neglecting to factor in the reflux action in the column . :|
So it well maybe that the takeoff port is doing a 50:50 vapour split, its just that there isn’t as much water vapour making it to the top .

Certainly worth concidering . I guess I could prove it by removing the packing . If its energy being lost due to refluxing then without packing , with the valve wide open, the output should be half what it is in Pot still mode .
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Setsumi »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:59 am
Setsumi wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:39 pm In terms of the reflux output, both ethanol and water output is lower than the potstill. It shows that reflux return uses a lot of energy. And in an unpacked column all reflux return ends back in the pot. And remember the return will be cooler, so in the water experiment you have a bigger deficit to overcome before it will return to vapour. Or so it seems to me.
Thankyou Setsumi

I think you might be onto something here . I was neglecting to factor in the reflux action in the column . :|
So it well maybe that the takeoff port is doing a 50:50 vapour split, its just that there isn’t as much water vapour making it to the top .

Certainly worth concidering . I guess I could prove it by removing the packing . If its energy being lost due to refluxing then without packing , with the valve wide open, the output should be half what it is in Pot still mode .
Yes, without packing the water charge output should be better but i do not think it would be half than the potstill because of the cooling that the reflux does. Unless you can keep your reflux cooling to just below where water vapour condenses to keep returned reflux as close to vapourising as possible.
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

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Setsumi wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:23 am Yes, without packing the water charge output should be better but i do not think it would be half than the potstill because of the cooling that the reflux does. Unless you can keep your reflux cooling to just below where water vapour condenses to keep returned reflux as close to vapourising as possible.
That should be easy to organise , not so sure how much effect it would have , but only a few minuates to find out .

Thanks again Setsumi .
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Yummyrum »

Got some time today .
Repeated the Packed column with water test .
In pot mode ( RC removed wnd top capped) , the takeoff rate was 2.97 l/h …. Id call that 3 l/h and what I got lastvweek.

With the RC fitted back , I pulled 900lm /h …. hmm better than last weeks test .But still less than a 50:50 split .

So the thinking is that perhaps there is energy being lost by refluxing pure water in the packing so in reflux mode , there is less vapour actually reaching the top of the column giving the illusion of less than 50:50 vapour split .

Well the takeoff was 1.14 l/h
I was thinking this was a brake through….it certainly was getting closer to the theoretical 1.5l/h U had hoped for .

Then I looked hard though the top window.
EE350B47-0FCF-4C22-9749-B390DD372F26.jpeg
I realized that the vapour going up has to effectively go through an aperture if it's own … namely , the holes under the collection cap . Doh .

So I removed the cap .
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Ran the still again .
Waiting to see collected output … waiting … waiting .
Nothing…. WTF .

There was a rain cloud pouring off the RC and straight down the reducer section and not a drop come out the output port .

Seems all the water vapour went straight up to that RC and none wanted to go out side outlet :roll:

These VMs sure are a strange beast .
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Rum Agol »

You read over and over that the reason is that water vapour is lighter that alcohol vapour and
that the water vapour doesn’t want to fall down to the product condenser.
The Reflux coil above the takeoff port will condense all the steam that arrives at it and if it can’t condense it , it passes through it and out the top .
Yummy youve removed the packing and capped the top and still there is no output at the take off, but you are seeing plenty of condensate coming off the RC coil. It seems the RC is able to condense all the water vapour arriving at it at the power input used. Did you retry the experiment with a 30%ABV charge?
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

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Rum Agol wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:53 am Yummy youve removed the packing and capped the top and still there is no output at the take off, but you are seeing plenty of condensate coming off the RC coil.
That was two experiments without packing.

First was to remove the RC and cap the top and measure how much product was being produced and able to be collected . (To get a base line on which to determine the RR when in Reflux mode )

The second experiment was to remove the cap and drop in the reflux condenser coil to determine what reflux ratio was happening with water vapour .

It was when I realised that the Hood under the Reflux coil might be causing issues and I removed it . Thats when I got no output at all .
Rum Agol wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:53 am Did you retry the experiment with a 30%ABV charge?
No , out of time and patience .
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by kimbodious »

@Yummy, great work and write up! I fully intended changing my thoughts based on your results because I trusted your methodology. That cap on the vapour tube threw a curveball!
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Setsumi »

So the cap creates vapour turbulence? And that helps to split vapour between take off and RC.
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by shadylane »

Yummyrum wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:06 am
These VMs sure are a strange beast .
That's a fact.
VM's seem to have no respect for theory of operation. :lol:
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Saltbush Bill »

shadylane wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:27 am
Yummyrum wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:06 am
These VMs sure are a strange beast .
That's a fact.
VM's seem to have no respect for theory of operation. :lol:
Good reason to go back to good old reliable LM......slow but steady. :thumbup:
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by shadylane »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:38 am
Good reason to go back to good old reliable LM......slow but steady. :thumbup:
Also, a LM doesn't need a product condenser.
It only needs a product cooler.

Now back to the VM stills.
LM's are too boring. :lol:
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:38 am
shadylane wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:27 am
Yummyrum wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:06 am
These VMs sure are a strange beast .
That's a fact.
VM's seem to have no respect for theory of operation. :lol:
Good reason to go back to good old reliable LM......slow but steady. :thumbup:
They work perfectly well with Alcohol in them …. and at the end of the day thats all that matters .

My curiosity here is why they don’t beyond tails .
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

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kimbodious wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:52 pm @Yummy, great work and write up! I fully intended changing my thoughts based on your results because I trusted your methodology. That cap on the vapour tube threw a curveball!
I hope my ramblings here aren’t screwing your views too much Kimbo . You have your CCVM operation down pat . :thumbup:
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

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Setsumi wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:33 pm So the cap creates vapour turbulence? And that helps to split vapour between take off and RC.
Quite possibly Setsumi . Not that I know a lot about turbulators , but I would have imagined they would have had to be before the vapour split area rather that past it .

But for sure , what ever the reason , that hat seems to have caused some serious change . Incidentally , its only there because of the LM/VM collection area . If it was purely a VM still , it would bot be required .

I am curious though if I had a straight 2” column and tee and not the dual reducer style if the results would be different .
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by kimbodious »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:54 am
kimbodious wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:52 pm @Yummy, great work and write up! I fully intended changing my thoughts based on your results because I trusted your methodology. That cap on the vapour tube threw a curveball!
I hope my ramblings here aren’t screwing your views too much Kimbo . You have your CCVM operation down pat . :thumbup:
Ha, my views have been screwed for a long time now. :lol:

To be honest, I haven’t run my CCVM this year, I have too much stock and not enough demijons for extra. Old mate has borrowed my CCVM set up and is having a great time operating it. We figured that there is no point both of us setting up our own CCVMs when we use them so infrequently. I guess we would use a CCVM more if we were running washes through it instead of just low wines.

Old mate set up his pot still on the same modular design as I use, that meant that he could just swap a couple of things about and clamp on my CCVM, too easy!
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Re: VM still output rate ALC verses Water

Post by Setsumi »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:57 am
Setsumi wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:33 pm So the cap creates vapour turbulence? And that helps to split vapour between take off and RC.
Quite possibly Setsumi . Not that I know a lot about turbulators , but I would have imagined they would have had to be before the vapour split area rather that past it .

But for sure , what ever the reason , that hat seems to have caused some serious change . Incidentally , its only there because of the LM/VM collection area . If it was purely a VM still , it would bot be required .

I am curious though if I had a straight 2” column and tee and not the dual reducer style if the results would be different .
Lucky for the experiment that your LM requires the hat.... myself has become intrigued by craft distillers mentioning of LM take off.... but that is another discussion.

Yes, it would interesting to see results in a straight diamter VM... my thinking is that the reducers on both sides of your take off area speed up vapour in the take off area and then the vapour slow down in the coil area. This creates a suction in the take off area resulting in low ethanol vapour shooting past take off in your VM.... or in other words it increases reflux ratio :think:

That may explain the old thinking that VM stop producing at end of runs.... sort of, because there are many contradicting this... maybe those contrsdicting it do not have restrictions in the take off areas... or have something to create more turbulance?!
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