Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by Skál »

Skál wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 11:04 pm
shadylane wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:57 pm For neutral, I do strip runs, dilute then redistill with a packed column.

Anyway, here's how I'd do a 1 run and done with my column.
Max boiler power is limited to the wash wanting to puke, I figure 90% of that power is good.
The take off rate is adjusted for what I want out the spout.
There's a fuzz of boiling alcohol on top the packing, but nothing I'd call flooding or even semi flooding.

BINGO...do you touch power input? Or have u in the last?
Andy yeah better make a new post. I'd delete all if I could but can't . Its derailing a great thread.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by Skál »

shadylane wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 11:17 pm The power and/or take off rate are adjusted as needed during the heads and foreshots.
Once the hearts begin, I normally don't make any more changes.
The take off rate will slowly decrease as the boiler runs out of alcohol and the tails appear.
nice still online. Tricky in UK. What boiler charge do you have ? If you can equate to a 50 ltr keg shady?
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by shadylane »

I don't want to hijack this post about running a column to its limits.
Here's the build for my boiler.
viewtopic.php?f=88&t=57812

Edited, blame me I'm drunk as normal. :lol:
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by kimbodious »

Once I get to late heads on my CCVM reflux column, I do not change the settings for the water flow to the reflux condenser or “the valve” (position of the bottom of the RC). I manage the still from there on by tiny increases of power.

Flooding is bad (like in the article shared by Andrew_90) but running a fluidised bed on top of the packing is not necessarily flooding. If your fluidised bed is spilling over the offtake that is definitely a bad thing even when it is just droplets or spray.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by Yummyrum »

kimbodious wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:04 am
Flooding is bad (like in the article shared by Andrew_90) but running a fluidised bed on top of the packing is not necessarily flooding. If your fluidised bed is spilling over the offtake that is definitely a bad thing even when it is just droplets or spray.
Nice Kimbo :thumbup:
I think that is the delineation … or perhaps the line in the sand …that needs to be drawn between the two . IE ,fluidised bed and flooding .



I’m sure the line in the sand will move from person to person , but I for me , holding a steady state of fluid bed is a delicate balancing act that doesn’t accomplish much other than higher anxiety and stress levels I don’t need .

Runaway fluidisation quickly leads to flooding . And flooding leads to splatering and puck like behaviour outthe collection port.

The remedy for runaway fluidisation is reduction of power .
Small reduction can take bloody ages …. Read …. Several minutes 5-10 , until the fluid slowly drops .

Killing the power will cause a sudden collapse in the column . Then you might want to re equalise.

If you want to experiment with fluidised beds , be prepared for a quick kill . (Switch off the power to the boiler )
When you are more experienced , you’ll figure a medium power reduction .

Personally … fluidised beds suck shit and not worth the bother.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by MereCashmere »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:51 am
First thank you for joining the convo! Big fan of your work :clap:

Are you able to still pull off 97+ without the fluid bed?
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by MereCashmere »

Thanks all for joining!

Andrew and Shady feel free to continue your respective convos here! I don’t feel that your topics were derailing this thread at all; in fact I think they were adding to it!
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by StillerBoy »

kimbodious wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:04 am Once I get to late heads on my CCVM reflux column, I do not change the settings for the water flow to the reflux condenser or “the valve” (position of the bottom of the RC). I manage the still from there on by tiny increases of power.
This is where I differ in my process.. at the late head, I've already started the reduction in take off, and increased only very slightly in power.. this is done from the point of view that the late heads and early tails require more time in equilibrium to achieve their highest purity..
kimbodious wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:04 am Flooding is bad (like in the article shared by Andrew_90) but running a fluidised bed on top of the packing is not necessarily flooding. If your fluidised bed is spilling over the offtake that is definitely a bad thing even when it is just droplets or spray.
From experience in having setup multiple viewing points and observed the vapors behaviors at those points during a run, there is no flooding occurring in the packing throughout the column, even with a 1" fluid level at the top but prefer a lower level..

Fluids coming out or over the top of the condenser during a run does not mean that the whole column is being flooded.. it only indicates that the condenser is being overpowered by the vapors, which is stop by increasing water flow..

It has been my experience that running the column with a fluid level above the packing, has made operation of a still simpler and more enjoyable, and has shorten the run time overall.. after all, let's not forget that we are to be in attendance of the still at all time, so why would it be such a bother ..

Mars
Last edited by StillerBoy on Thu May 19, 2022 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by Yummyrum »

MereCashmere wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:45 am
Yummyrum wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:51 am
First thank you for joining the convo! Big fan of your work :clap:

Are you able to still pull off 97+ without the fluid bed?
I don’t recall ever getting 97+ .
95.5% is more than good enough for me . And if it tastes OK , I’m happy with 95% .


Maybe those with a rock solid Mains supply might enjoy a day of watching a fluidised bed .
My supply varies so much , its like driving in the snow .
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by kimbodious »

Yummy makes a good point about constant operating conditions for trying to maintain a fluidised bed. It would be extremely difficult to manage with fluctuating power and coolant supply or with an uninsulated column.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by zapata »

Andrew_90 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:23 pm I had always wondered about this as my crude understanding of a column operation is that there the vapor rises to the top, gets condensed by the RC and then drops back down to be reheated and to repeat the cycle. Eventually when the ethanol particles are light enough and have shed enough of the "wash liquid" the ethanol then passed into the PC and is condensed.
Does it help to remember that vapor interacts with liquid reflux throughout the entire column? So rather than vapor rising to the top to be condensed vapor is constantly being condensed by exchanging energy with liquid. It's not that it rises to the condenser repeatedly (though some molecules undoubtedly do), but that it does so in the column before it ever reaches the condenser.
So the article asides, should there be an uninhibited flow of vapor or should the vapor be fighting it way past descending product. Or perhaps alternately put, should the vapor be rising under convection or by pressure. It is the pressure that causes the bubbling.
All stills are driven by pressure, not convection. Every liter of water vaporized is 16,000 liters of vapor (ethanol is slightly less by volume but roughly equal on a molar basis). Anyway, that expansion creates pressure that drives all flow in a still, everything is being pushed by the constant expansion into the fixed volume of the boiler, not rising on currents like a hot air balloon. Keep in mind we are talking about the pressure of an open pipe, so it is minuscule, but it is actual pressure. At the same time, interaction between liquid reflux and rising vapor is the foundational aspect of reflux stills. Whether that interaction is "fighting" or not is pretty much what we are discussing and it should be obvious that it isn't settled. Take all plated stills for example, the rising vapors have to "fight" against the liquid. Obviously works. Take a mildly run not flooded, not semi-aquatic reflux still, there is no fighting, plenty of vapor/liquid is interacting in smooth counterflow on the packing surface. Obviously works too. Hence this conversation.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by bluefish_dist »

I would argue that the pressure is not exactly minuscule. When running plates, I found that if the downcomer was too short it would not work. I think the pressure drop per sieve plate is around 2-4” of h2o. Never checked it, but a 3” downcomer did not work and would blow by the plate.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by Yummyrum »

bluefish_dist wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:19 am I would argue that the pressure is not exactly minuscule. When running plates, I found that if the downcomer was too short it would not work. I think the pressure drop per sieve plate is around 2-4” of h2o. Never checked it, but a 3” downcomer did not work and would blow by the plate.
Querying that bluefish .
There are many plated stills with downcomers that have caps on them as fluid locks that are maybe less than 1/2” of water in the trap .

My own plated still has the downcomer/weirs run ti the plate below that has maybe less than 1/2” from bottom of downcomer to height of fluid .


In no particular order and quite a few dodgy looking designs with Silicone stuff that should not be there … point is , they all work . … and nothing like 3” of water trap needed to prevent vapour bypass to plate above .
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by bluefish_dist »

Yummy, I believe that the trap pool depth is not as important as the length of it below the plate. On my plates the trap depth is shallow, just a normal pipe cap. But if the downcomer was 3” it would not seal and bypass the plate. If I made them 4.5-5” long they worked well. Bubble cap downcomers are shorter, so I may be wrong. While I never measured it, I think you could measure the pressure drop across a plate or for the packing in a column.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by shadylane »

Sieve plates and bubble caps seem to need slightly different downcomer and cup designs.

The bubble caps plates are more forgiving.
If the cup depth is deeper than the liquor on top the plate, all is good.

Sieve plates have to be run harder and therefor need deeper cups to hold back the pressure.
The downcomer also needs to be longer to hold a tall enough column of reflux.

Here's the downcomer design that work good for me.
DSCF0178.JPG
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by zapata »

It's a good point that words like "minuscule" are pretty useless in this conversation. Definitely both plated and packed stills have measurable pressure drop. But it will be in the "inches of water" scale, and not the the PSI scale. 1PSI = 27.7 inches of water. So the pressure will be tiny compared to most other non-stilling pressures that average joes are familiar with like tires, water faucets, balloons, or even just blowing hard. Regardless, it is this pressure that drives a still.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by shadylane »

zapata wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 1:25 pm it will be in the "inches of water" scale, and not the the PSI scale.
+1 on that.
Also, alcohol weighs less than water.
So, cups and downcomers need to be bigger, deeper and longer. :ewink:
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by bluefish_dist »

I was never able to get over 95.3 abv running without a fluidized bed. I was not successful in running one either. Usually if I heard anything like a sizzle from fluid in the column it quickly resulted it liquid out the top.

Imho getting to 95+ is quite hard at any decent output rate. Adding 2 ft (30% taller) of packing moved my output from 190.3 to 190.5. That was 6 ft (18 plate equiv) to 8ft (24 plates) Those last few % are increasingly hard to achieve. Just having the tools to accurately measure that proof with any accuracy is beyond what most hobby distillers have on hand. It was hard work to be able to consistently make high proof at a good takeoff rate. Took run after run and several stills/columns to get it right. Rewarding when it works well. I really wish my experience with spp was better as it is supposed to really run well allowing either more pure alcohol or a shorter column.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by shadylane »

bluefish_dist wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:14 pm
Imho getting to 95+ is quite hard at any decent output rate....
...Just having the tools to accurately measure that proof with any accuracy is beyond what most hobby distillers have on hand.
I totally agree.
Chasing after the last fraction of a percent becomes progressively more difficult to do and even harder to accurately measure. Besides, high proof has to be diluted to drinking strength.
And it's after water is added that the mistakes become obvious. :ewink:
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by Yummyrum »

This is worth a look
Has some great videos of what goes on in the packing .
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54682#p7296465
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by Oatmeal »

20210515_211608_copy_567x1008.jpg
I think Yummy and Shady have the right idea with some pictures. Words is hard!
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by StillerBoy »

Interesting video.. I've never experience the wave effect experienced by Skow.. could it be the ss scrubbies, as I've haven't experimented with them but only with lava rocks and SPP.. and I've done it a few time with lava rocks and never experience such effect..

The experience I've had using lava rocks, is that the column does not fill up with fluid/liquid, but one can see the behavior the of vapors interaction with the returning distillate, even with whatever fluid level is on top the packing..

Pictures worth a thousand words.. I've also done the same experiment using my flute column, packed with lava rocks, and got the same results all around, same power, same take off rate, same running time, as just using the top sight glass..

Mars
Setup:  2" x 35" lava rocks
Setup: 2" x 35" lava rocks
Top and Bottom sight glass - fluid level at top - no flooding at bottom
Top and Bottom sight glass - fluid level at top - no flooding at bottom
Bottom sight glass - no flooding of packing
Bottom sight glass - no flooding of packing
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by cranky »

StillerBoy wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 11:14 am I've never experience the wave effect experienced by Skow.
I believe the "wave" only happens on smaller diameter columns. I discussed that a bit in Scow's thread. I believe it's caused by the vapor swirling as it leaves the boiler and with a larger diameter column the vapor can slow down a bit, spread out and stabilize as it rises. It may also not happen depending on the design of the area of the boiler where the vapor exits the boiler.

I got a little lost reading through this thread so can't swear what I'm writing is relevant but here is a video showing how I run mine in a semi flooded state.
[utube][/utube]
If you want to run this way it certainly helps to have a glass column. I can keep the "flood" as high as I like in the column. Once dialed in if left without tweaking the heat input the "flood" will slowly subside throughout the run.

I don't try to do a one and done, my personal preference is to run 12 gallons of low wines when I set up the big column, which is a C.M. 50" long, 3.5" I.D. and I think my rock is about the size of a dime. Normal takeoff speed for me is a quart every 15 minutes at 95%. I don't try to get higher, that is plenty high proof for my needs.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by bitter »

Thanks Cranky awesome video!

I was testing my 6.5mm SPP yesterday in a 3" Boka about 51" total packing steady 172.3 to 172.4F and 3.2 LPH right from about 10% TSFFV

That is the way I image the inside the column but I cant see. I do sense a slight vibration or weight tot the column when I get things right power wise. I can maintain it if I up power near end the run. I was running full 5500 W at end the test/sac run prior to doing the TSPPV. For the TSFFV I just let it ride till temp shot up at end the run.

I would say I was running semi fluidized bed as almost puked at first at full power and had to back things off a bit with a really full boiler.

The thing that amazes me is the speed from wash, before my numbers with copper clocker with with 40% charge and ran 3 to 3.5 LPH for clean neutral. This on one run was as clean. For the copper I think I was running a fluidized bed but it was so much tweaking to keep stable and took a knack and practice. The SPP it was just a set and forget for the TSFFV run but I think I could up power as I go or decrease take off a bit part way thought to help push tales out further. I did not take cuts on this as was for learning and need enough to run more % in the boiler. for testing so Apples to Apples with copper blocker I used for years.

Realistically I don't think I need to strip and then do spirt run now with SPP I might do a strip 1 and then add wash and strip for a second run. But I like the extra sense that stripping it all and then running with clean water.. We will see after the spirt run but I expect a ton more cuts wise from this judging form the run from my usual.

Still learning how to drive the SPP I am confident I can go much faster with it from wash but was more about making good stuff than posting high numbers to me. 3.2 LPH is pretty nice.

I'm going to do some making pure whiskey Ian Smiley way and Odin also did some and see how that goes.

B
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by cranky »

A couple of things I forgot on my previous post.

#1= Rattling... There is often mention of rattling when running in an aquatic state. I think if you listen very closely to my video you can hear the sound the bubbles are making as they make their way through the column while possibly collapsing and reforming causing that "rattling" sound much like boiling water in a large pot. Now Things can get a little tricky here because you have to know the difference between bubbling because of reflux and rattling because you are pushing things so hard you are putting excess pressure in you'r boiler and creating a potential bomb!

Without getting into too many details, a few years ago a professional distillery's still exploded badly burning one person and killing another. In the post accident report it was noted that their marble packed column frequently "rattled" when they were running. I believe the last I heard the belief was that the pressure was getting so high in their boiler and column that it was causing the marbles to lift and rattle. My belief is this and several other factors were telling them their still was over pressuring but they weren't listening to what the still was saying. When running on the edge be aware of what your still is telling you and a manometer is a pretty good idea.

2=The "wave" in Scows video... To save trouble and keep things on one thread here is the video
[utube][/utube]
For the sake of context I need to explain a few things. If I recall correctly Scow used a 2" column. Larger columns like mine don't seem to have this "wave". Many people who run smaller diameter columns have noted that their column will often rock back and forth while running.

I used to run a 1.5" Boka and would run it just on that very edge between flooding and highest purity and it would rock and rattle the whole time but would produce alcohol as pure as it's possible to get...just tediously slowly. Then I upgraded to the 3.5" I.D. glass column.

While assembling my column I did cleaning runs with no packing. My packing retainer consists of a plate with a bunch of .22" diam. holes drilled in it. While doing the cleaning runs with no packing I ran it hard enough that an inch or so of liquid was held on top of that retainer plate. I observed that as the vapor passed through that bed of liquid it seemed to actually passing through in a swirl as it exited the boiler and entered the column. I believe this explains the "wave" which I think is a very fast swirl and also accounts for the rocking some people encounter. Larger diameter columns don't suffer from this because the vapor slows down slightly and gets a chance to spread out before continuing up the column.

There were some other things I wanted to mention but while typing all of that my train of thought got derailed so I'll stop here until those thoughts come back to mind.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by zapata »

Skow's column was 2" OD 1/4" wall, so 1.5" ID, a fair bit less than most "2 inch" columns.

As a bit of an aside, I propose we stop using the word "fluidized bed". That is already a specific technical word that probably doesn't apply to every scenario we are describing, if any. To me the best term is "semi-flooded". As most technical definitions of flooding refer to the excess buildup of liquid, but also ascribe a diminished rectification to the scenario. The liquid buildup is obvious, the reduced rectification is not. So semi-flooded makes perfect sense.

Actual fluidized beds may be relevant in the future, or not. But by reserving the word for literal fluidized beds, then we will know what we are talking about if it ever becomes relevant.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by cranky »

zapata wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 6:56 pm Skow's column was 2" OD 1/4" wall, so 1.5" ID, a fair bit less than most "2 inch" columns.

As a bit of an aside, I propose we stop using the word "fluidized bed". That is already a specific technical word that probably doesn't apply to every scenario we are describing, if any. To me the best term is "semi-flooded". As most technical definitions of flooding refer to the excess buildup of liquid, but also ascribe a diminished rectification to the scenario. The liquid buildup is obvious, the reduced rectification is not. So semi-flooded makes perfect sense.

Actual fluidized beds may be relevant in the future, or not. But by reserving the word for literal fluidized beds, then we will know what we are talking about if it ever becomes relevant.
I don't feel "flooded" is the right term for it when it's not detrimental and it's actually desired and stable.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by shadylane »

The videos remind me of huffing.
Looks like all that huffing and farting would upset the columns operation.
I also see liquid blowing upward through the packing instead of being redistilled.

Guess I need to dig out the 4" x 32" glass column and join the party.
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by bitter »

Unfortunately I don't have a sight glass so playing with my setup in 3" copper column by feel temp at top and listening.

The vibration I'm talkign about is not boiling up column its very subtle. These videos etc are nice to see! Its what I imagine is happening.

Will SPP its amazing how much faster and clean things are at higher speeds. form a 10% wash I can do what I need a 40% charge to do before. From the 2 runs + sac so far on SPP I can say I am running with a semi- flooded state most the time at higher output. Would really love to have a big sightglass to see whole thing!!! I find I need more free boiler space it seams as running more power than did with copper packing so its a fine line to get things to be in the right power and takeoff similar to running fast with packer but SPP much easy and more rock solid, less adjustment.. Almost set and forget.

B
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Re: Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

Post by drmiller100 »

On my Stills I use marbles. When I tune it just right I can ease up on the marbles starting to rattle.

When the marbles rattle, and I add another 20 watts, the column floods.

Yes it runs a LITTLE faster rattling a little but flooding turns into a big mess.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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