Semi- fluidized bed/ semi- aquatic state/ semi- flooded Etc.

[MereCashmere]

From where I stand looking at this thread I see a very small minority who say running hard and in a slightly flooded state is an excellent move.
To the other side I see a large group of very confused newbies scratching there heads and wondering what the hell is right and wrong.
And then there seems to be a large group of long term and experienced distillers who's opinions are similar but different. They seem to be saying that it over complicates things and that if there is any benefit at all its not worth the extra trouble, others saying that it plain out doesn't work and is a waste of time.
My own experience tells me to go along with the nothing good comes from pushing to hard or flooding a still group.

Nail on the head. Exactly why I started this thread, actually. So much misinformation and so much differing opinions on the matter; I wanted a place we can hash it out and get to the bottom of it.

[shadylane]

There is a spot that columns have the highest ABV.
It's best not to run that hard for neutral spirits.
It's a balance between boiler power, reflux and take off.
You can run lots of power and reflux for highest ABV.
But you're going to get thirsty without any take off for drinking.

[elbono]

I see a large group of very confused newbies scratching there heads and wondering what the hell is right and wrong.

I'm one of the confused newbies, trying to figure out how to run my 2" packed column ccvm and understand what is happening inside that opaque copper pipe. I'm playing with spp currently but use stainless scrubbers too. A BIG question is what the target operating state is, I know the ultimate target is something good to drink.

My understanding of this thread is the descending liquid will "boil" at some point on the way down and moving this point toward the top of the packing produces more output. So I have three areas in my packing fading from one to the next, bottom mostly rising vapor some falling liquid, middle boiling mixture, top mostly falling liquid and some rising vapor. Is this correct or is it boiling everywhere and the abv is different? I really wish I had transparent copper.

I've read a lot of threads about flooding but not sure exactly what it is. If I see the reflux boiling on top of the packing is this "flooding"? This thread seems to say no, just almost flooded.

I see a gradient of temps from the bottom to the top of the packing that I affect with power input. I'm getting pretty good at keeping these stable or moving them either up or down and can keep the boiling action inside my sight glass for an hour or more. What information does this gradient tell me besides the abv at that point?

The wetter the packing, the more interaction between vapor and fluid, the more passive reflux created and flavor passed along. No dif than deeper flooding of a plated colunm.

For neutral, the drier (the top area of the packing, taller the column) the cleaner the vapor and less flavor passed along.

What is the difference between running with the boiling area 1/2 way up the packing and taking out 1/2 the packing and running with boiling just above the top of that? Is it only that the liquid and vapor have more contact as they pass each other?

[bunny]

I see a large group of very confused newbies scratching there heads and wondering what the hell is right and wrong.

What is the difference between running with the boiling area 1/2 way up the packing and taking out 1/2 the packing and running with boiling just above the top of that? Is it only that the liquid and vapor have more contact as they pass each other?

One thing for sure, if you take half the packing out you also take out half the number of theoretical plates with it.

[StillerBoy]

What is the difference between running with the boiling area 1/2 way up the packing and taking out 1/2 the packing and running with boiling just above the top of that? Is it only that the liquid and vapor have more contact as they pass each other?

One thing for sure, if you take half the packing out you also take out half the number of theoretical plates with it.

Right on.. you have learn to understand why packing is used in a reflux column.. very good first step in developing understanding of vapor behaviors..

And one has to remember that different packing used provide different theoretical plates, along with how compressed the packing is during the usage..

Mars

[elbono]

Yes I understand most of what you're saying.

But if I run at a power setting that drives the "boiling" up 1/2 way the top half of the packing is full of rising vapor and falling liquid. Are you telling me that further distillation is happening there?

To use the analogy of a plated still, isn't this like the upper 1/2 of the plates having no liquid?

[drmiller100]

There is a spot that columns have the highest ABV.
It's best not to run that hard for neutral spirits.
It's a balance between boiler power, reflux and take off.
You can run lots of power and reflux for highest ABV.
But you're going to get thirsty without any take off for drinking.

I agree with this. In the spirit of trying to explain packing, ENOUGH packing is also required.

ANY packing will work. Some packing works better for some applications than others.

Copper mesh works. Marbles can work. Rocks can work.

For a given heat source, and column diameter, and feed rate and packing material, you need ENOUGH packing height.

One example is I found 36 inches of 1/2 inch marbles works for 4000 watts on a 3 inch column. 28 inches works allso, but that seemed the absolute bare minimum for fast product rate.

36 gave me a little extra.

If you are after neutral and don't have ENOUGH packing height you have to run too much reflux to get neutral at a good rate.

[drmiller100]

Yes I understand most of what you're saying.

But if I run at a power setting that drives the "boiling" up 1/2 way the top half of the packing is full of rising vapor and falling liquid. Are you telling me that further distillation is happening there?

To use the analogy of a plated still, isn't this like the upper 1/2 of the plates having no liquid?

If you have packing, boiling beer, and reflux you have liquid in the packing.

Liquid is boiling all up and down all the packing. Hot beer at the bottom, cool 95 percent at the top.

I've had lots of runs flood. I experimented with it a bit on purpose.

For neutral it ruins the run.

[drmiller100]

I see a large group of very confused newbies scratching there heads and wondering what the hell is right and wrong.

I'm one of the confused newbies, trying to figure out how to run my 2" packed column ccvm and understand what is happening inside that opaque copper pipe. I'm playing with spp currently but use stainless scrubbers too. A BIG question is what the target operating state is, I know the ultimate target is something good to drink.

My understanding of this thread is the descending liquid will "boil" at some point on the way down and moving this point toward the top of the packing produces more output. So I have three areas in my packing fading from one to the next, bottom mostly rising vapor some falling liquid, middle boiling mixture, top mostly falling liquid and some rising vapor. Is this correct or is it boiling everywhere and the abv is different? I really wish I had transparent copper.

I've read a lot of threads about flooding but not sure exactly what it is. If I see the reflux boiling on top of the packing is this "flooding"? This thread seems to say no, just almost flooded.

I see a gradient of temps from the bottom to the top of the packing that I affect with power input. I'm getting pretty good at keeping these stable or moving them either up or down and can keep the boiling action inside my sight glass for an hour or more. What information does this gradient tell me besides the abv at that point?

The wetter the packing, the more interaction between vapor and fluid, the more passive reflux created and flavor passed along. No dif than deeper flooding of a plated colunm.

For neutral, the drier (the top area of the packing, taller the column) the cleaner the vapor and less flavor passed along.

What is the difference between running with the boiling area 1/2 way up the packing and taking out 1/2 the packing and running with boiling just above the top of that? Is it only that the liquid and vapor have more contact as they pass each other?

You are doing great!!!! Keep going!!!!

I would encourage you to go learn about the chart and understand the implications. At the bottom You have 10 percent in the boiler.
At the top you want neutral. What is azeo? You cannot get more than 95 percent.

If you have 10 percent, and want 95 percent how many times do you have to boil/condense?

Is there a scientific term for a flooded reflux still? Yes there is. They call them the messmakers unless you plug the atmospheric vents.

Then they call them widow makers.


We all learn differently. I see the old timers chiming in. Most of us are saying the same things in different ways trying to help.

[drmiller100]

What is flooding?

[StillerBoy]

Yes I understand most of what you're saying. the key word is "most", lots to learn yet..

But if I run at a power setting that drives the "boiling" up 1/2 way the top half of the packing is full of rising vapor and falling liquid. Are you telling me that further distillation is happening there?

No such thing happens.. vapors interact with all the packing, not half of the packing..

If "boiling" refer to some kind of flooding half way up the packing, no that does not happen..

First semi flooding and flooding are two different behaviors.. semi flooding (1/4 - 3/8" level above packing) only takes place at the top of the packing, and is in balance with the power setting.. flooding is when the vapors keep pushing up past the semi flooding level, the power is to high and the balance is lost with the refluxing activity..

And hears where it becomes interesting, flooding above the RC can also happen at that location, yet the semi flooded level above the packing is not flooding or in balance with the refluxing.. so how can that happen, cause the vapors are over powering the RC, due in large part to too low of water flow to the RC or the water temp feeding the RC is to warm..

Managing either one is about understanding power management, and being properly setup in power management..

Mars

[StillerBoy]

What is flooding?

I certainly do not agree with some of the stated comments in the video..

The video states: "flooding is difficult to control or almost impossible to control"..

That statement is really misleading, as all one has to do is reduce/lower the power setting used.. really simple, but one has to have understanding of how and why such does happen..

Mars

[drmiller100]

Yes I understand most of what you're saying. the key word is "most", lots to learn yet..

But if I run at a power setting that drives the "boiling" up 1/2 way the top half of the packing is full of rising vapor and falling liquid. Are you telling me that further distillation is happening there?

No such thing happens.. vapors interact with all the packing, not half of the packing..

If "boiling" refer to some kind of flooding half way up the packing, no that does not happen..

First semi flooding and flooding are two different behaviors.. semi flooding (1/4 - 3/8" level above packing) only takes place at the top of the packing, and is in balance with the power setting.. flooding is when the vapors keep pushing up past the semi flooding level, the power is to high and the balance is lost with the refluxing activity..

And hears where it becomes interesting, flooding above the RC can also happen at that location, yet the semi flooded level above the packing is not flooding or in balance with the refluxing.. so how can that happen, cause the vapors are over powering the RC, due in large part to too low of water flow to the RC or the water temp feeding the RC is to warm..

Managing either one is about understanding power management, and being properly setup in power management..

Mars

There are a LOT of experienced people who have never had success with flooding of any kind, ESPECIALLY if it goes over the reflux coil.

Is there ANYONE who has repeated your success?

In other words, I think you are full of crap.

[StillerBoy]

There are a LOT of experienced people who have never had success with flooding of any kind, ESPECIALLY if it goes over the reflux coil.

That was explain why and how, but I guess it was either missed or were not focus on understand what was stated..

Is there ANYONE who has repeated your success?
In other words, I think you are full of crap. yeah.. maybe I'm so in your view/mind, but the facts is that it does work, and as stated throughout this whole thread..

Yeah.. many of them right here is this forum, and work it quite well, and had guided other to do so, not an impossible thing to learn or do either..

Unfortunately, one has to learn to read or listen, not just scanning or think they are listening, as the poster of the previous video, but to do so with understanding, and from there, learn to put in practice, gain experience, not just pretend one has experience in using a reflux column..

Mars

[kimbodious]

to drmiller100,
I get greatest efficiency and highest purity when I run my CCVM with a stable level of bubbling condensate on top of the packing. I have had to adjust the amount of packing to ve able to achieve this and minimise the risk of flooding.

[elbono]

No such thing happens.. vapors interact with all the packing, not half of the packing..

If "boiling" refer to some kind of flooding half way up the packing, no that does not happen..

First semi flooding and flooding are two different behaviors.. semi flooding (1/4 - 3/8" level above packing) only takes place at the top of the packing

I call it boiling because that's a one word decription of what it looks like to me. What I mean is in the pic oatmeal posted about 2/3 of the way down in the second page of this thread.

I was thinking this was happening somewhere down the column if I lower the power input. Good to get that misconception out of my thinking. I guess it is more of how actively the reflux is occurring throughout the column and at higher power we drive the almost violent activity to the top? New thought exercise, oh boy!

I am getting to where I can run high power at the start of a run and by watching the temps in the column bank it back before the semi-flooding (I didn't say boiling this time!) gets to the top of the packing. Then I gradually up the power to get it to the top of the packing. Once there it will cycle from about 1/2" to 2" above the packing on its own. Water temp, drafts, something else changing? I haven't gone down that rabbit hole yet.

The temp at the bottom of the column will rise gradually at the start of a run then rise quickly for a minute or so and then resume a gradual rise. The temps further up the column will do this in succesion. I bank the power back when the second probe does this, I have a five probes in the column. The third and perhaps the fourth probe will do this before my power adjustment takes full effect.

The big step was learning not to overcorrect. This is a fairly sluggish process. I had seen 1 to 2 minutes as a reaction time, I think it's more like 5 to 10 minutes to see the full effect of a power adjustment.

flooding above the RC can also happen

Thank goodness I haven't managed to do that. It would be cut the gas, grab the extinguisher and start praying time! I definitely wouldn't enjoy cleaning up ABC extinguishers make a big mess.

My RC is hefty, 6' of 1/2" csst formed into a dimroth. The same amount of csst in a U configuration is my PC and can handle anything my burner can throw at it on a stripping run when I use it on the pot still. The water from the RC dumps on the driveway within sight and starts steaming at about 60c so that's my cluebat to tell me I haven't been watching that temp probe closly enough. Hopefully I'm safe.

THANKS!

[Saltbush Bill]

I get greatest efficiency and highest purity when I run my CCVM with a stable level of bubbling condensate on top of the packing

Kimbo to get things perfectly clear, does that mean that you choose to run that still that way all of the time.....or just that you can if you want?

this and minimise the risk of flooding.

Does "minimise the risk of flooding" mean that it is still tricky to run that way and needs constant supervision or it can still easily flood?

[elbono]

You are doing great!!!! Keep going!!!!

I would encourage you to go learn about the chart and understand the implications.

Thanks I've learned a lot and have even more to learn.

If "the chart" is this I understand it and use it frequently when looking at temps during a run. All with a grain of salt, thermometers lie!
"A man with a watch knows what time it is, a man with two watches is never quite sure" I use a total of seven probes when running the column so I'm a long way from sure.

[drmiller100]

No such thing happens.. vapors interact with all the packing, not half of the packing..

If "boiling" refer to some kind of flooding half way up the packing, no that does not happen..

First semi flooding and flooding are two different behaviors.. semi flooding (1/4 - 3/8" level above packing) only takes place at the top of the packing

I call it boiling because that's a one word decription of what it looks like to me. What I mean is in the pic oatmeal posted about 2/3 of the way down in the second page of this thread.

I was thinking this was happening somewhere down the column if I lower the power input. Good to get that misconception out of my thinking. I guess it is more of how actively the reflux is occurring throughout the column and at higher power we drive the almost violent activity to the top? New thought exercise, oh boy!

I am getting to where I can run high power at the start of a run and by watching the temps in the column bank it back before the semi-flooding (I didn't say boiling this time!) gets to the top of the packing. Then I gradually up the power to get it to the top of the packing. Once there it will cycle from about 1/2" to 2" above the packing on its own. Water temp, drafts, something else changing? I haven't gone down that rabbit hole yet.

The temp at the bottom of the column will rise gradually at the start of a run then rise quickly for a minute or so and then resume a gradual rise. The temps further up the column will do this in succesion. I bank the power back when the second probe does this, I have a five probes in the column. The third and perhaps the fourth probe will do this before my power adjustment takes full effect.

The big step was learning not to overcorrect. This is a fairly sluggish process. I had seen 1 to 2 minutes as a reaction time, I think it's more like 5 to 10 minutes to see the full effect of a power adjustment.

flooding above the RC can also happen

Thank goodness I haven't managed to do that. It would be cut the gas, grab the extinguisher and start praying time! I definitely wouldn't enjoy cleaning up ABC extinguishers make a big mess.

My RC is hefty, 6' of 1/2" csst formed into a dimroth. The same amount of csst in a U configuration is my PC and can handle anything my burner can throw at it on a stripping run when I use it on the pot still. The water from the RC dumps on the driveway within sight and starts steaming at about 60c so that's my cluebat to tell me I haven't been watching that temp probe closly enough. Hopefully I'm safe.

THANKS!

Are you getting 95 percent out the top?

What percentage is in your boiler?

How much packing? Whatvkind?

[drmiller100]

You are doing great!!!! Keep going!!!!

I would encourage you to go learn about the chart and understand the implications.

Thanks I've learned a lot and have even more to learn.

If "the chart" is this I understand it and use it frequently when looking at temps during a run. All with a grain of salt, thermometers lie!
"A man with a watch knows what time it is, a man with two watches is never quite sure" I use a total of seven probes when running the column so I'm a long way from sure.What kind?
What this chart shows is 10 percent beer boils to 50 percent vapor. Condense that. Now you have 50 percent beer.
Boil that and you get 75 percent ish.

As you get closer to 95 percent it takes a LOT of boil/condense to gain the last 3 percent up 95.

If the last boil on top is super magical special it is still one boil.

Flooding is bad. People who run flooded columns don't get 95 percent.

[drmiller100]

You are doing great!!!! Keep going!!!!

I would encourage you to go learn about the chart and understand the implications.

Thanks I've learned a lot and have even more to learn.

If "the chart" is this I understand it and use it frequently when looking at temps during a run. All with a grain of salt, thermometers lie!
"A man with a watch knows what time it is, a man with two watches is never quite sure" I use a total of seven probes when running the column so I'm a long way from sure.What kind?

What this chart shows is 10 percent beer boils to 50 percent vapor. Condense that. Now you have 50 percent beer.
Boil that and you get 75 percent ish.

As you get closer to 95 percent it takes a LOT of boil/condense to gain the last 3 percent up 95.

If the last boil on top is super magical special it is still one boil.

Flooding is bad. People who run flooded columns don't get 95 percent.

[elbono]

What this chart shows is 10 percent beer boils to 50 percent vapor. Condense that. Now you have 50 percent beer.
Boil that and you get 75 percent ish.

As you get closer to 95 percent it takes a LOT of boil/condense to gain the last 3 percent up 95.

If the last boil on top is super magical special it is still one boil.

For that thought process I like this one better. Same info just easier for me to understand.

Flooding is bad. People who run flooded columns don't get 95 percent.

As I said I don't really know what people mean when they say "flooded". What I have called boiling on tóp of the packing I think is what is called semi-flooding in this thread. When I run this way two different hydrometers measure my output at 96-97 abv or higher after temp correction. They're amazon bought so I don't see that as gospel but it's the best I'm willing to pay for.

Are you getting 95 percent out the top?

What percentage is in your boiler?

How much packing? Whatvkind?

Better than 95 by a bit.

I've done the most testing with shady sugar shine washes that by specific gravity were around 10%, again not gospel truth all my instrumentation comes from amazon unless I build it myself.

I've got the same results with corn/angel yeast ferments that by corn content should be about 10% but it's hard to tell with angel. The output seemed to agree with 10%

I'm currently using stainless spp from Piotr (still4you). I don't remember exact dimensions but it's small and made from 0.25 mm wire. I bought 1 liter but I think I got more like 1.2 liter. The height is what ever that fills a 2" type M pipe. It's way less height than recommended by most for a 2" column (around 20:1 I think, I'm about 12:1) but I'm head space limited so I bought spp.

Can't get over 95%? Cow patties according to my instrumention.

Is it difficult? Not really, I can do it without extreme measures and I've been running a column about 6 months. Any kind of a still about a year.

Is it worth the effort? Haven't got an opinion yet.

Does it affect purity (not abv, taste)? Not by my senses but they're way to unsophisticated to be called authoritative. Take my opinions on purity with a whole box of salt.

[StillerBoy]

If "the chart" is this I understand it and use it frequently when looking at temps during a run. All with a grain of salt, thermometers lie!

Be mindful that the chart you make reference is for vapor behaviors while operating a pot still, and should not be used as a reference in the operation of a reflux column..

Then I gradually up the power to get it to the top of the packing. Once there it will cycle from about 1/2" to 2" above the packing on its own.

What is the setup of your controller, as the issue with the cycling indicate a power management.. the minor power cycling comes from two area, where one is located on the grid line and its strength, and the cheap components used ie pot(s), SSR, meters..

The amount fluctuation described above should not be allowed to take place, but should be managed to control the behavior between 1/4 - 1/2", as any level above that will serve of no use and possibly reduce purity, as I've never experimented or experienced running above the level quoted..

Mars

[StillerBoy]

Can get over 95%? Cow patties according to my instrumention.

Is it difficult? Not really, I can do it without extreme measures and I've been running a column about 6 months. Any kind of a still about a year.

Is it worth the effort? Haven't got an opinion yet.

Does it affect purity (not abv, taste)? Not by my senses but they're way to unsophisticated to be called authoritative. Take my opinions on purity with a whole box of salt.

There you go, it's really quite easy, once the understanding is understood..
You're almost there, just need to correct the cycling semi flooded levels and under control..

Mars

[elbono]

I like the chart I posted as you posted this for reflux thinking, from Odis I think? The simple one is still good for thinking about a single temp at a particular time and location. I try to use my time sitting by the still thinking about what is going on in there. They had transparent aluminium on Star Trek I want transparent copper so I can see what's going on!

My fluctuations are almost certainly not grid/controller related.

I run on propane, replaced a 0-20 psi regulator with a 0-5 psi one and got much less touchy response. Maybe a bit too far though it takes about 75 min to get to operating conditions at full blast. I wish I could find a real multiturn 0-15 psi regulator like I've seen here recently maybe SBB's? Aussies get the good stuff @#$_&*"'!.

Even though my burner is very close to the bottom of the keg boiler I think drafts affecting the flame is the likely culprit. I've started taking measures to eliminate that. Could be water or something else though.

If I ever go electric it could end up looking like cranky's saturable reactor control panel. I'm a geek that runs best on 480v AC but I can run down to 2.5v DC.

Electric plan:
1. Run 240 supply to basement/garage
2. Buy TIG welder
3. Learn how to TIG weld
4. Modify keg for electric heat
5. Build controller for heater, probably microcontroller triggered PWM scr or ssr with true RMS reading multiple time per second. Put in an enclosure that looks like the apocalypse happened in the 1950's

It'll be a while but I like building stuff I'm just that kinda geek.

I'm in the final round of the nightly product quality control session so I'll cya'll on the flip side.

[drmiller100]

[
>>>>>>Better than 95 by a bit.

That is MIRACULOUS!!!!!!

And an indication you are pretty ignorant about distillation

[elbono]

[
>>>>>>Better than 95 by a bit.

That is MIRACULOUS!!!!!!

And an indication you are pretty ignorant about distillation

I am definitely fairly ignorant about distillation. I do know how to follow instructions. I follow the instructions on how to read my hydrometer and correct for temperature. This tells me my product is 96-97 abv. Can't reach 95%? BULLSHIT!!!

[shadylane]

......But if I run at a power setting that drives the "boiling" up 1/2 way the top half of the packing is full of rising vapor and falling liquid.

What your describing sounds like puking, puking starts at the bottom and works its way upwards.
Flooding starts at the top and works down.
The top of a column has the most liquid because the RC is pissing on it.
That's were flooding will start at then move downwards

On a side note.
Puking can also cause a column to flood because the rising puke impedes the downward flow of reflux.
When it happens, shit goes wrong real fast.

[cranky]

Flooding is bad. People who run flooded columns don't get 95 percent.

Because of the way this was quoted I'm not sure if drmille wrote that or elbono but I take issue with that statement.

If you look back at the video I posted on page 2 of this thread you will see how I run my big CM. Some would call that a "flooded" or "semi flooded" state. I have 11-12 gallons of low wines in my boiler, start taking off with the column nearly full and the liquid level gradually drops throughout the 5 hr run and every jar except the first and last is 95+%. The hearts are clean and pure and perfectly neutral. So when I see people making statements like that I have to say they aren't doing something right and didn't bother to figure out how to do it right because in my personal experience in a 6hr total run I get 15 bottles of vodka and a half gallon of slightly flavored but not "ruined" product that far exceeds most store bought vodkas.

Now this thread seems to me to have become too convoluted, branched off into too many directions and is trying to throw in flutes where they don't really belong as well as how to run several different column types to the point I personally find most of the useful info on the original topic is far too difficult to sort out. Not to mention asking for a consensus around here is akin to herding cats. So I will likely stop following this thread.

[shadylane]

It sounds counter intuitive that a restriction might help.
I'm thinking the difference may be due to the size of the boiler to column fittings.
My 18ish gallon boiler has 4" tri-clamp outlet connecting the 4" packed glass column and I can't get the column to flood uniformly like your 2" boiler outlet adapted to a 4" glass column.

On my column any signs of flooding is detrimental to making neutral spirits.
The column works best when the packing looks wet, due to the reflux draining down and the rising vapor is invisible except for blowing a few bubbles in the reflux.

The way I run my column for neutral.
The foreshots/heads cut is easy, run max possible boiler power and reflux, while slowly dripping off the nasties. Then go, slow and steady for the hearts.
As the run progresses, the output will slowly decrease.
That makes timing the tails cut easier, due to the slower output.
And watch really close for the tails cut on a sugar wash run for neutral.
When the compressed tails finally gets out of a packed column it happens fast.
Towards the end of the run, Ya better be using small jars and changing them often.