Distilling Beer, without hops.Will the beer style translate?

[BrewVegas]

Everything that I have read about distilling beer speaks to the problems caused by the oils from the hop additions. Has anyone tried to pot still a beer like a hefeweizen, then dry hop it...maybe a little orange zest? I'm curious as to how any of the flavor profiles translate after distilling.

[astronomical]

Quite a few horror stories, but, most involved making neutral. Are you trying to distill homebrew? If you're doing all grain you could always make a sugarhead from the spent grains and dry hop afterwards as you suggest.

I suggest you try mascerating some hops in your UJSM and see how you like it. I'm gonna try it myself. Sounds interesting and its cheap.

My confusion is this. Shouldn't citrus mascerate distillations do the same thing? Shouldn't anything with a lot of oils or bitter flavors do the same thing?

I see a lot of comments about it making the still smell, but, I don't see much about it effecting the flavors of spirits.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 1&start=15

Seems like you just shouldn't try and turn beer into vodka... 5 gallons of 5% yields 1 liter before cuts and losses. Waste of my time unless it was intended to be whiskey or I think it'll turn out good.

[NcHooch]

Hey Brew ,
I'm havin a hard time imagining what you're shootin for, but you gotta know that what comes out of the worm will bear no resemblance to the wheat beer you started with, right? It'll have a very light taste n smell, will be clear, and likely around 70-90 proof (in a single run) ...basically a wheat whiskey. Adding hops? ....since you're not boiling, you might not get many IBUs (bittering) , maybe just flavoring ... I don't know, never heard of hopped whiskey

You're heading in uncharted territory , let us know how it goes.

[Durace11]

Corsair makes a hopped whiskey called Rasputin, haven't tried it but sounds "interesting". The description sounds like they run the unhopped wash in the still with a gin basket filled with hops to add the hop flavor and probably to avoid the hop oils in the boiler.

[Odin]

Courages, very courages, BrewVegas!

The topic comes up every now & then. Most here don't like it. I made some "beer brandy". Not from heffe, but from a 10% Gulpener Gladiator. And yes, you can normally taste the beer back in you drink. If you use a good beer at least. I tasted some Gulpener Gladiator back after distilling, but what really struck me, was when I smelled it: unmistakenly Gulpener Gladiator.

I have pot distilled & fractionated (CM) beer. The fractionated version is off course lighter in taste, which can be good, because pot distilled ... brings over a lot of taste. I ended up blending them and that gave me a nice drink.

Did some Irish stout (I think it is called) too. Came out all right. At least to my taste!

Never had that hops problem, or maybe once, when I distilled a 4.5% beer. The taste concentration (including hops) came over a bit too intense. A higher abv beer works better, if I recall. I tried 8% and 10% with good results. A 12% beer gave me less taste then expected.

Never added hops after distilling, though.

A few German distillers make "bier brand", actually.

Odin.

[BrewVegas]

Last weekend I brewed a Blue Moon clone for the wife (Nelo's #4 attempt: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxL7TXS ... n_US&pli=1 and that got me thinking about the additions like coriander, sweet orange peel, bitter orange peel, dry hopping etc. I've had some success with sweetfeed and just love how the flavor transfers from the grains.

I may start off with a similar grain bill as to the recipe, and treat it like a sweetfeed recipe (sitting on the grains in the bucket for flavor) with no mashing for conversion. Probably try the S04 or a WLP300 yeast, then play around with spices and work backwards from there.

*EDIT - Fixed the link

[Odin]

Sounds allmost like your making a gin/genever. Couldn't open your link ...

[BrewVegas]

Link is fixed, thanks. You know, I didn't think about it like gin. Maybe I can add them to the basket on my still. That's the cone shaped part in the pic below. If I add hops to this basket, do you think I will have the same problems of never removing the smell as if they were in the boiler?

[Prairiepiss]

Wouldn't distilling a beer without hops give you a malt whiskey? And really all you would be doing is dry hoping a malt whiskey.

I don't think a dry hoping of a whiskey will give you the same results as distilling a hoped beer. I could be wrong?

[heartcut]

One possibility would be to boil some hops in water for an hour and use the hopped water to cut your spirits. You'd get the IBUs and if it sucked, could avoid sliming the whole batch.

[danbass]

I have another related question since this thread might get the eyes of other homebrewers who enjoy this hobby. You always hear that you want to put high quality material in the boiler to expect high quality results. I'm a frequent homebrewer and one of my main beers that I keep on tap is an imperial red (30+ gallons brewed and served in the past 7 months or so). However, I know that what it tasted like in primary 2 weeks in is going to be vastly different than after a proper secondary 6 weeks in.

I've read that you should put the wash in the boiler after primary fermentation has finished, and while that makes sense for a lot of recipes, does that hold true with more complicated all grain mashes? I finally have everything together that I need to get started, plan on doing a water and then a vinegar batch this weekend, and a sugar wash next. However, I brewed 10 gallons of an unhopped variant on my favorite beer just expecting to age it for the regular 6 weeks. Should I plan on doing this soon? It's a high gravity beer (1.07) and is still puking out the airlock with 5 gallons of headroom, so I have some time to learn my system, but I'm concerned that I wont be able to do my sugar wash and that I'll be learning cuts on my first all grain wash.

My other option is I have a 500+ full beer bottle collection displayed in my basement. Part of that collection is ~3-4 cases of duplicate bottles that were bound for the curb/sink/recycling. Is there any value to dumping all of those in to a boiler to learn my cuts with no expectation of having any usable results at the end?

[Odin]

A beer has hops in it. If you distill it part of that taste comes over as well. Why add hops later? I don't get what it is you are after ...

Or do you want to make a beer without hops and distill that with hops? Mr. P is right: distilling a beer without hops is making a whisky. No more, no less.

Odin.

[RumBrewer]

Mr. P is right: distilling a beer without hops is making a whisky. No more, no less.

Odin.

a lightly hopped, oaked whiskey could be a wonderful thing! Maybe stick 1 or 2 hop cones in a gallon of whiskey for a week or so! Won't be bitter, but sure will pick up a nice floral hop nose. Maybe stick with Nobel Hops?

[BrewVegas]

Hops are used for three reasons: aroma, bittering and flavoring. In a typical boil, bittering hops are added for the full 60 miniutes, flavoring hops are added in the last 15-30 minutes, while aroma hops are added in the last 5 minutes/flame out or dry hopping.

The aroma hops is what gives you that great hoppy smell when you stick your nose is a glass of good beer. This is what I would be trying to achieve with a "Beeriskey"...pronounced [Beer-skee], along with some additional flavor & color from some of the speciality grains from the recipe. Some may suggest, just make a neutral then mix it with some beer, but that is not what I am looking to do.

Has anyone tried to use a spirit run (diluted to 40%) for steeping grains? How about making a simple wash like sweetfeed, but not using sweetfeed, instead 4" of 2-row in a bucket with sugar, then using that as your wort from which you steep the speciliaty grains, spices and hop additions as converted for the Beeriskey recipe. My goal is to create a spirit with flavor, color and aroma similar to a specific beer profile. I don't want a beer spiked with likka. So, the steeping grains, spices and hops would have to be adjusted from the original beer recipity for the subtility that I am trying to achieve in the spirit. I think I found my next experiment .

Thoughts?

[Durace11]

Sounds like you want to macerate beer grains in neutral to create a beer liqueur. One thing I would be worried about would be tannin extraction from the husks of the grain. I'd say go for it but start small incase it comes out bad.

Also, as mentioned above, fortified beer would probably translate better into "Beeriskey"...which can be broken out into "Beer is Key"!

[Odin]

I am a person that likes beer a lot. Well, actually less than before. Since now I drink likker more (and beer less). Anyhow, I have some beer buddies. We have like 25 years of experience in drinking beer together. When I told them I started distilling, they were very suspisious at first. Home distilling is not a common practice over here. And the state hammered it in: "if you do you will get blind!" What wan my friends over is that I distilled a few of the beers we usually drink. In the beginning they didn't "find" the beer in the likker. But when I presented them with another "BeerBrandy", made from another beer we drink, all of a sudden they could. One beer was more spicey and that came over in a nice way. One of my best Dutch friends is living in Poland most of the time (ex-wife, kid, you know the drill - or can imagine it). He takes my vodka to Poland now!

Okay, where is the beer in vodka? Don't know. Just felt like telling you.

Have a nice weekend (or: "weekeinde" as we say over here). I made my second gen of UJSSM bases on 100% malted rye. First run was a disaster. Gross. Hope this one will be better.

Odin (sipping on a Carlsberg beer right now and expecting to "down" two or three Leffe Brown Belgium Abbay Stout beer before the evening is over).

[BrewVegas]

Thanks and have a great weekend, too!

[johnny108]

I used to make beer schnapps out of a pilsener that tasted just like the beer. The trick I learned from a German Schnapps book was to distill only the clarified "wine" or "beer" you wish to capture the flavor from- NOT the yeast. Otherwise- the flavors that the yeast will create in the finished spirit will "cloud" the flavor of the "wine" you are trying to concentrate the flavors from. (for whiskey/brandy- these yeast products are a part of the flavor as the spirit ages.)
There was one extra step that made the beer schnapps even better- PERFECT trub separation. And I mean PERFECT! I'd make a 5 gallon all grain batch- but only ferment maybe half of that- but the wort was crystal clear. Then I clarified it just as perfectly before a single run in a potstill. If you can do this- you can even taste the "grain-like" flavor of the base malt.
When I tried the same trick as an unhopped whiskey (perfect clarity)- it tasted like a "grain schnapps"- like someone had soaked 2-row in a neutral spirit. Good schnapps- but bad whiskey.

[Stillbrewin]

I think I would just experiment by doing an all grain no hopped beer, ferment it, distill it, and try flavoring it with one of these. http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/cata ... ?q=hopshot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Stillbrewin

[GuyIncognito]

Dry-hopping whiskey works, but you need to consider the hop type and amount carefully. The Corsair guy's book is like 50% about hopped whiskeys (http://www.amazon.com/Alt-Whiskeys-Alte ... 846&sr=8-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow). I thought his book was like 80% worthless/redundant shit, 10 % poorly edited shit, and 10% interesting ideas which were written up poorly. Using hops in a gin basket also works and some gin recipes I’ve seen call for them.

Clarifying the beer before distilling is important, but because the beer hasn’t been boiled and has no hops it will go sour much faster than your average homebrew. I think you’ll find unhopped, unboiled ‘beer’ won’t survive a 4 week conditioning period like you would normally use. The easiest way I’ve found is to do a 15 minute boil with a whirlfloc tablet, and/or after fermentation put the carboy in the fridge for 2 days to drop all the trub out of solution.

Good luck with steeping grains, but I don’t think you’ll have much success due to tannin extraction as someone else mentioned. Adding boiled and hopped unfermented beer wort to whiskey seems like it would work the best, sort of a like a pineau des chartres but for grain.

[BrewVegas]

Thanks for the link and heads-up on the review. I think I'm going to make a wort with the base malt of the beer only, ferment and possible run through a filter, then do a stripping run. Once I make the collections I will dilute to 40% then steep in the speciality grains and spices. To avoid extracting tannins I'll be sure to keep it at the correct temp for a limited amount of time. I'm just waiting for some carboys to open up.

[GuyIncognito]

I think that the high proof of the spirit will extract undesireable flavors from the specialty grains, but I guess you never know for sure until you try. I would start with a pretty small test jar though. I think the idea as a concept has promise, when brewing beer I'll drop a shot of scotch into some of the unboiled, unhopped wort and it's pretty damn good on a cold brewday.

[whiskeyD]

I just wanted to add a little here. This is Darek, the author of the book Alt Whiskeys that GuyIngognito is ragging on and the owner of Corsair. In my experiments dry hopping whiskey at barrel proof is very different than dry hopping beer. Because whiskey is such a better solvent than beer, it really amplifies the grassy and resinous off flavors people dislike about dry hopped beers if you use too much. It also strips the flavors much faster than a beer and takes far less hops, I mean a LOT less than dry hopping a beer. I think 1/10th of what you need is pretty realistic(pellet hops, not whole). Too much and it quickly begins to taste like bitters. If you are into high IBU Craft Beer, and love IPA's and really want to push the bitterness, then this may be the best technique for you. It does not take much dry hopping to ruin the whiskey, so just be very conservative. On the flip side, it take very little hops, and hops are expensive. This is a way to have a big flavor impact for much cheaper than brewing the beer normally, adding hops in the boil, and then distilling. This is especially true for some of the newer hops like Citra and Galaxy that are very citrusy, and pretty rare and expensive. The unusual citrusy flavors really pop with some of the newer hops, if you are into that style. So I would not toss a bunch of hops in a barrel without first doing some small tests before hand.

Dry-hopping whiskey works, but you need to consider the hop type and amount carefully. The Corsair guy's book is like 50% about hopped whiskeys (http://www.amazon.com/Alt-Whiskeys-Alte ... 846&sr=8-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow). I thought his book was like 80% worthless/redundant shit, 10 % poorly edited shit, and 10% interesting ideas which were written up poorly. Using hops in a gin basket also works and some gin recipes I’ve seen call for them.

Clarifying the beer before distilling is important, but because the beer hasn’t been boiled and has no hops it will go sour much faster than your average homebrew. I think you’ll find unhopped, unboiled ‘beer’ won’t survive a 4 week conditioning period like you would normally use. The easiest way I’ve found is to do a 15 minute boil with a whirlfloc tablet, and/or after fermentation put the carboy in the fridge for 2 days to drop all the trub out of solution.

Good luck with steeping grains, but I don’t think you’ll have much success due to tannin extraction as someone else mentioned. Adding boiled and hopped unfermented beer wort to whiskey seems like it would work the best, sort of a like a pineau des chartres but for grain.

[NcHooch]

Thanks for stoppin in Darek ... Small world. ....and thanks for clearing that up.

Alcohol is definitely a much better solvent of hop oils than beer, and I could see how even a single pellet of Cascade could overpower a bottle of whiskey.

Now yall got me wondering about this hopped hooch

[Durace11]

Clarifying the beer before distilling is important, but because the beer hasn’t been boiled and has no hops it will go sour much faster than your average homebrew. I think you’ll find unhopped, unboiled ‘beer’ won’t survive a 4 week conditioning period like you would normally use.

I've fermented unhopped, unboiled "beer" for three months with a loose fitting lid and no airlock and had no problems with it souring or becoming infected, the only thing guarding it from infection was my cat. Also, some people would like a little sour taste in their whiskey so a little sour might be a good thing to add to the flavor profile. I know some of these guys have done "no boil" double digit generations on UJSSM/Sweetfeed and still not gotten serious infections.

As far as a perfect translation from beer style to hops, some beer styles are meant to have a level/style of hops to define the style. That's where the translation becomes hard to do IMO.

[GuyIncognito]

Hi Darek,

I like your products a lot and think you are working on some very interesting stuff, which I guess was why I was disappointed in the book. Maybe other people will get more mileage out of it than me, it certainly wasn't the worst book on distilling I've ever read but my money would have been better spent towards a bottle of Triple Smoke...

[troyhageman]

I'm new here and just flipping through the posts but this caught my eye. I am an avid home brewer (home made rims system active temp control fermentation you name it) and I made a still to dispose of beer I didn't like. Depends on the still you’re running, if you are running a pot still the beer style will come through. If you try and run say Scottish ale (1080 sweet malty) you will get a whiskey with that character. If you run a wheat beer you will get a lot less flavor. The hops are lost completely and don't pose any issue to flavor or still. Don't worry about the hope oils they don't boil so they stay in the hopper.

The beers I have run through the still I have dumped from corny kegs into a rubber made trash can (food grade) and added 10lbs white sugar ( 1 lb per gal) and pitched with wlp099. I have aerated this well because the beer was previously carbonated so contained no oxygen. This was strictly to up yield. Aged in oak it makes very respectable whiskey.

[whiskeyD]

Guy,

I wrote the book I wish I had when I was trying to start a distillery and first learning. The point of the book was to be a 'whiskey cookbook' of alternative recipes one could use to make good and unique whiskey, hopefully award winning whiskey. I was not repeating other technical distilling books, I was trying to capture what I thought tasted good and different.

Below is the list of awards that came out of the recipes IN THIS BOOK, I'm not sure what else I can do besides sharing all my award winning recipes. These recipes were competing internationally and judged by some of the top whiskey judges in the world.

Award winning whiskey recipes from the book

Triple Smoke
Gold, 2010 San Francisco World Spirits Competition
Silver, 2010 American Distillers Institute Awards
Gold, 2010 International Review of Spirits Awards, BTI
Bronze, 2011 American Distillers Institute Awards
Gold, 2011 MicroLiquor Spirits Awards

Graniac 9 Grain Bourbon
Best of Class, Best of Category, and Gold, <-- beat 240 other spirits to win the top award
2012 American Distillers Institute Awards

Wry Moon
Double Gold, 2010 San Francisco World Spirits Competition
Silver, 2010 American Distillers Institute Awards

Rasputin Hopped Whiskey
Platinum, Best of Class, 2009 World Beverage Competition, Switzerland <- beat 90 other whiskeys to win the top award
Bronze, 2010 American Distillers Institute Awards
Bronze, 2011 American Distillers Institute Awards

Quinoa Whiskey
Silver, 2011 New York International Spirits Competition
Bronze, 2012 American Distillers Institute Awards

Rymageddon
Silver, 2012 American Distillers Institute Awards

Wormwood Wit Barrel Strength
Gold, 2010 American Distillers Institute Awards

Pumpkin Spice Moonshine
Bronze, 2011 San Francisco World Spirits Competition
Bronze, 2011 MicroLiquor Spirits Awards

Oatmeal Stout Whiskey
Silver, 2012 American Distillers Institute Awards
Bronze, 2011 American Distillers Institute Awards

Oak Smoked Wheat Whiskey
Silver, 2012 American Distillers Institute Awards

Triticale Whiskey
Bronze, 2012 American Distillers Institute Awards

Cherrywood Smoked Whiskey
Bronze, 2012 American Distillers Institute Awards

PreProhibition American Whiskey
Silver, 2012 American Distillers Institute Awards

100% RYE
Silver, 2010 International Review of Spirits Awards, BTI
Bronze, 2010 American Distillers Institute Awards
Silver, 2011 American Distillers Institute Awards
Gold, 2011 MicroLiquor Spirits Awards

Nashville Bourbon (Cherry Wood Smoked Bourbon)
Silver, 2012 American Distillers Institute Award

Citra Whiskey
Best of Category, Gold, 2012 American Distillers Institute Awards

Elderflower Bohemian Whiskey
Bronze, 2012 American Distillers Institute Awards

Czech Pils American Malt Whiskey
Silver, 2012 American Distillers Institute Awards

Hopmonster
Silver, NY International Spirits Competition Awards

Like I said, not sure what else I can do besides giving away my award winning recipes and ideas. As a print on demand writer through Amazon, I make less than a buck per book, Amazon gets the bulk of your money. Mail the copy of your book to my address at Corsair, and I will happily mail you a check in the amount you bought it for.

--Darek

Hi Darek,

I like your products a lot and think you are working on some very interesting stuff, which I guess was why I was disappointed in the book. Maybe other people will get more mileage out of it than me, it certainly wasn't the worst book on distilling I've ever read but my money would have been better spent towards a bottle of Triple Smoke...

[GuyIncognito]

I appreciate the response, you're being considerably fairer and civil than I was in my original post. I'd like to edit my post to something more even-minded but can't seem to figure out how to do it. Hopefully everyone reads on from my comment to see your response, and I apologize for my unnecessary hostile tone.

[Durace11]

Mail the copy of your book to my address at Corsair, and I will happily mail you a check in the amount you bought it for.

--Darek

I'd rather mail you a copy and get a signed copy back, is that possible?!? Or, how about a distillery tour and book signing, informal, of course.