My infected Rum

Anything to do with rum

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der wo
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

It's the patent also I write about. There are many papers pf Arroyo, but this is the patent "The Production of Heavy Rums".
Sorry, I don't find anything there similar to what you write. So please try to find it again and quote it.
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kiwi Bruce
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by kiwi Bruce »

Here is another paper, this time from a man named F.I. Scard...not seen this before. He says that that the Jamaican Rum Distillers have a special yeast (wild from the sugar cane itself) Schizosaccharomyces Pombe,

https://www.bostonapothecary.com/wp-con ... m-1920.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Shi#y pdf but worth taking the time to struggle though the bad type.
A little from the paper :-
"What might be called the beneficient bacteria of rum, which cause the distinctive flavour, are the acetic acid organism, which produces acetic acid from the alcohol, and the butyric acid organism, which gives from the presence of organic matter peculiar to sugar cane molasses, butyric acid—the same body which gives the characteristic flavour to rancid butter....
During distillation the acids mentioned above combine with the alcohol, forming what are known as “esters” or compound ether, and it is these esters which impart the flavour to rum and give it stimulating properties....
The object of adding sulphuric acid to wash is the produce a certain acidity, thus putting an obstacle in the way of the putrifactive bacteria, which feed on yeast cells, at the same time helping the development of the butyric ferment, which requires an acid condition for its development. It is the ester formed from this acid which gives the “pineapple” flavour to Jamaica rum. Its presence is essential to all rums, as without this ester the spirit ceases to be rum....
The reason why Jamaica rum contains so much of this body, and is consequentially so valuable, is as follows: The yeast which provides the fermentation in sugar-cane distilleries is derived from the cane itself. The ordinary variety consists of round cellular bodies which grow by budding—that is, one cell buds out from another. This variety, unfortunately, will not flourish when the acidity gets beyond a certain point. When this point is reached—and the production of acetic acid soon brings it about if the fermentation is slow—alcohol production ceases. But in Jamaica there is an especial yeast which will grow in a highly acid medium. Unlike the other yeast, it is rod-shaped, and multiplies by splitting up. The presence of this yeast, therefore, enables the fermentation to be prolonged, and substances such as bottoms, dunder, &c., to be used in the wash, which are favourable to the development of butyric acid....
Then there is this little gem!...
Rum and whisky.jpg
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papapro
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by papapro »

der wo wrote:
papapro wrote:Last weekend I read the whole arroyo patent on heavy rumes, It states thatbackset/dunder is dropped to the pit and has low concentration of sugars probably those unfermentable and this creates wash of 3.5 % max.

...there is mention low wines are @ 40% and then deluted.
Could you quote it, papapro? I didn't find it in the pdf. I searched for the numbers "3.5" and "40" and didn't find it. And it doesn't sound right for me. I don't think a dunder pit has 3.5% alcohol. And I don't think they dilute low wines. Or perhaps, but with dunder, not with water.
Der wo there is no mention of 3.5 % mash but he did tell us that the wash must not have more 6 grams of sugar in 100 ml of wash
to create the esters so my understanding is 6/100ml= 60g/1l 60 grams devided by 17g/1liter that gives me 3.5%
max. then at the end is mentioned that can be added to the low wines. Now Higher alcohol content + low ferment of 3.5% I think that was the procedure.
I could be wrong but it it worth to try.

This patent has about 8 pages and very fine print it is hard to read it so it takes time to digest the info.

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Re: My infected Rum

Post by zapata »

Rum is alchol + special attributes, in the same way that whisky is alcohol + those bodies which cause it to ne whisky
Ha! An obvious statement is one which states things that are obvious.
Related to schizo pombe, I've been looking for a strain for a couple years and can't find a commercial one. Pombe is also used for sour african beers and every so often a homebrewer returns with some but I havent been able to catch a trade yet. It is readily available commercially from scientific suppliers as it is often used in genetic engineeeing, but obviously a proven beverage strain would be preferable. Honestly I just want a yeast named schizo.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by kiwi Bruce »

papapro wrote:There is no mention of 3.5 % mash but he did tell us that the wash must not have more 6 grams of sugar in 100 ml of wash
to create the esters so my understanding is 6/100ml= 60g/1l 60 grams devided by 17g/1liter that gives me 3.5%
max. then at the end is mentioned that can be added to the low wines. Now Higher alcohol content + low ferment of 3.5% I think that was the procedure.
I could be wrong but it it worth to try.
So your talking about an isolated bacterial fermentation (or two of them:- one acetic and one butyric acid) in a very low ABV wash of 3.5%(still with the active Yeast) and this dual fermented brew is then added to the beer or low wines, with sulfuric acid, to bring about the esterification in the pot of the still, upon distillation. How much of this dual fermented brew do you think is required, per liter of the main body of the Rum run? 5% would be 50ml/liter or 6.5 ozs/gal, is this enough?
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kiwi Bruce
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by kiwi Bruce »

zapata wrote:
Rum is alcohol + special attributes, in the same way that whisky is alcohol + those bodies which cause it to be whisky
Honestly I just want a yeast named schizo.
I was trying not to read between the lines on this one but...Isn't he saying that each one has it's own "thing" going on, thus implying that whiskys flavor is also reliant on a bacto fermentation?

and schizo is a great name for a yeast!
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der wo
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Aren't we all a bit schizo?
But in Jamaica there is an especial yeast which will grow in a highly acid medium. Unlike the other yeast, it is rod-shaped, and multiplies by splitting up. The presence of this yeast, therefore, enables the fermentation to be prolonged, and substances such as bottoms, dunder, &c., to be used in the wash, which are favourable to the development of butyric acid....
But to get the bacterias working you have to ensure (with lime) that the pH doesn't drop too much. So why using a low pH tolerant yeast? Other more detailed sources don't have this information about pH tolerance. But they write that the good attribute of Schizo is the high osmotic pressure tolerance. But on the other hand also with normal bakers yeast it's possible to make a all molasses wash with 10% alcohol. Of course this will not be OG 1.077 and FG 1.000 but it will be something like OG 1.140 and FG 1.063. But at least for my cheap bakers yeast it was no problem.
But of course, a such different yeast will produce a different taste too probably.
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der wo
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Here a better copy of the Arroyo patent:
ProductionOfHeavyRums.pdf
(136.56 KiB) Downloaded 132 times
The maximum initial total sugars concentration of 13 grams per 100 ml has been selected to the benefit of the bacteria, as most bacteria of the propionic and butyric groups do not tolerate the sugars at much above 6 grams per 100 ml., and are also inhibited by alcohol concentrations of 8 percent by volume, or above. Since 13 grams per 100 ml. does not yield over 8 percent by volume (probable yield, 7.0 to 7.5 percent), a safety factor is provided regardless of the yeast action. Since the total sugars are reduced to about 6.0 grams per 100 ml. at bacterial seeding, the consequent alcohol concentration will not exceed 4 percent by volume, and the bacteria are then well able to proceed with their own work and in the symbiosis.
The fermenting mash is firstly corrected in pH value to a reading between 5.5 an 5.6, if necessary.
When the percentage of alcohol by volume is about 3.5 to 4.0 percent and the grams of sugar per 100ml of mash have a value below 6.0 grams, the conditions are ready for the incorporation of the bacterial footing to the fermenting mash.
So they first establish a pure yeast fermentation and then when the osmotic pressure has got down a bit and also the abv is still tolerable they incorporate the bacterias.
In case higher alcoholic concentrations are desired than may be expected from the amount of the initial sugars concentration in the mash, the sugars percent may be augmented by introduction of thick mash to the fermenter, with gentle stirring or agitation of its contents, when the total sugars concentration in the fermenter has dropped to a value between 2.0 and 2.5 grams per 100 ml. of mash.
To keep the osmotic pressure low they don't use all molasses from the beginning, but add it step by step.
Those portions of distillate which have been collected in the "head products" receiver, being the first and third fractions, may amount to 10 to 15 percent of the total alcoholic liquors distilled. They may be stored in special receivers until enough has been accumulated to permit a separate further distillation. When so collected, they are first diluted to an alcoholic concentration of about 20 percent by volume, and then the foregoing distillation procedure is again effected thereon,
The only passage where something gets diluted. They dilute the feints with water and do an all feints run.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by ElCubanazo »

DerWo, Shine0n, and anyone else who may know:

Is it okay to use baking soda instead of pickling lime to increase pH? I noticed the pellicle had started to sink and the smells change at a pH of around 4.5 and thus decided baking soda was a good idea since it's in my home and pretty basic. Now the "pit" is at about 7 or 7.5
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der wo
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

4.5 is low. 5.5 would be perfect. So you much overdosed the soda.
In theory lime is better, because it doesn't contain sodium, which hinders the bacterias. In practice perhaps it's all right, I don't know.
I once had a pit smelling rotten. You can read about earlier in this thread. It was probably due to high pH, but I am not 100% sure.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by ElCubanazo »

Yeah I saw that you'd mentioned that wh en I was skimming the thread. I'll report back if I too get the "rotten meat smells" you reported.

Do you recommend I just let it sit and take it's time to recover? Or should I just start a new pit after my next strip?
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der wo
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Sorry, I didn't try out all optional mistakes like rising the pH over 7 ;-)
Probably I would slowly lower the pH with an acid to 5.5.

You can always test your dunder by mixing a small sample with alcohol. The flavor will tell you if it's good or not.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Worm_Drippinz »

Love this thread!!!!


What an awesome read fellas!


It took me a while but it was totally worth it.

Thank you to everyone that kicked in on this thread, AWESOME!!!
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by ElCubanazo »

Just for the record: after making the pH too high at about 7.5 I poured about 2/3 of it out, added a little more fresh dinner, watered down (pH about 5.8), and added fresh potatoes.

Several days later, new pellicle developed, looks different than before. My first pellicle was a yellowish color, this one is super white and smells much much more pineapple than the previous. Should make a fine addition to my spirit run.

Planning on saving a gallon or two in the fridge either for spirit runs or to jumpstart the pit again! DerWo or anyone else please let me know if this is not advisable!
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

my pellicle has had 2 different colors, redish when I initially did the infection, then let the pH drop and the pellicle fell.
Then white as snow when I used pickling lime to raise the pH up back to 5.5ish

The smell was also different as it was more mellow the second time around, did not have the overpowering vomit smell as before (just a little) but somehow sweet at the same time.

I say keep it! Run it! enjoy it!!!

The 3 gallons I have of the potatoes infection is aging on oak and I couldn't help myself from drinking the 1 gallon white rum.

Thing was that the white rum had not a bit of pineapple smell at aging proof but when I added ice to the spirit it boomed with pineapple and dunder funk 《- = good funk!

I'm not sure how this will age out on oak but I'm betting it's going to be good and alot better with some serious time on oak, I may never take the oak out and as it gets drank I may add some more new make to it to see where it goes.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by raketemensch »

Be forewarned — baking soda will foam like a mother#@$&er. Not fun to clean up.


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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

I've not tried that yet but thanks for the warning.

How big of a mess???

I'm not sure I would use baking soda because of the sodium but instead use pickling lime.

I don't have it down to a science yet but it works well and fast, be careful of how much because it can cause the pH to rise well above 7 before you know it.

I use a teaspoon (leveled) per gal of dunder, I use hot ass water to mix really well then dump in and mix again. this ratio has worked out pretty well so far and hasn't raised it above 6 as of yet, I've dipped into the dunder and don't know the exact volume but I'd start with a half or 3/4 teaspoon per gal to be safe.

I don't know for how long the pH keeps at that point because I only check it now every 3-4 weeks, now I've let the pellicle drop and has been aging for a while now and seems to get sweeter each time I check it.

I'm glad to see people get out and try different things to improve our likker, best part is if I don't like it I can rerun it to clean it up, I've done that a few times too, lol
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by raketemensch »

I probably had 5-8 gallons of foam come roaring out of a 32-gallon barrel... Shop vac, towels.... it was horrible.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

A little update:

The all molasses Rum is now 9 months on oak. It has a mild fruitiness, no glue. And a bit "vegetal sickness" somewhere between Appleton and Hampden. I don't know if you understand. I mean a flavor reminiscent of the taste when you have fever and the vegetal flavor of dunder. I am very happy with it, but now I am searching for something different.

The dunder sugarhead with the heavy dunder infections and the sulphuric acid in the process is after 8 months on oak still undrinkable. Way too much synthetical fruit flavor, very onedimensional. And an unnatural very thin watery mouthfeel, like if ethanol were not the base but another alcohol. And no molasses flavor. Even adding sugar and overoaking wouldn't make it drinkable probably. I don't think I will use it at least for blending someday.

My Rum story continues here:
viewtopic.php?t=70404
It's about getting more acetic esters instead of butyric and lactic ones.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by raketemensch »

I love how on the rest of the internet a topic from 8 months ago would be locked, archived or considered dead, but here it’s essential to finish experiments and learning from others.

That’s really interesting, do you think it was the acid that made it “one note?”
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by butterpants »

With an estery/infected dunder rum are you guys still oaking on toast not char and very high ABV (over 65%) but then diluting down to 40% for drinking?
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

raketemensch,
you mean the sulphuric acid? And "on note", you mean why it's onedimensional?
I think the dunder was full of butyric acid and after the addition of sulphuric acid and pouring it into my washes and low wines, I got a large amount of ethyl butyrate. I know the smell of pure ethyl butyrate. It is said to smell like pineapple, but pure it smells extreme synthetical. Using sulphuric acid brings out much more esters, much more than I thought.
And fermenting active dunder with added sugar didn't work well too. Although I prepared the pH, the yeast didn't ferment well. Probably because of the predominance of the bacterias and perhaps because of toxic substances they have produced. So I got not only too much esters, but also not much alcohol. Less alcohol means more esters per alcohol.

butterpants,
Rum is mainly aged in ex Bourbon barrels. In charred american white oak, which is used for a few years maturing Bourbon. But Rum doesn't have rules here. You can use what you want. Many here like a toast without a char. I like light toast + light char, also for grain spirits.
While Bourbon is not allowed to barrel at over 62.5%abv, Rum is sometimes aged with a higher abv, up to 80% AFAIK. But also here is no rule and 62.5% would be normal.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by butterpants »

Der Wo I guess I was just wondering if estery/funky rum needed different oak ageing treatment than a standard rum.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

I don't see a reason to age it different. And I have never heard, they use a somehow different barrel for high ester Rum.
BTW there is also white high ester Rum.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by butterpants »

copy that!
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by SaltyStaves »

Did you get a pH reading on the sample with H2SO4?

I have a few samples here, one was 30ml low wines, 20ml infected muck and 5 drops of acid. It has a very pleasant, but synthetic strawberry aroma. The addition of the acid gave it a pH of 1.6
This was way more than I'd add before a spirit run, naturally, but compared to samples I've been more careful with, its less natural and it has held its aroma over several weeks.
Other samples with weaker acid additions have lost some of the esters and the dirtiness of the muck has began to reassert itself.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

No I didn't. Because I don't think it makes sense to measure it. How low the pH will be after adding a bit sulphuric acid depends mainly on the buffer capacity of the muck. How much lime for example you used to keep the pH in the mild sour range.
Ph under 2 sounds very low. 5 drops are around 0.25ml. Into 50ml means 5ml per liter. 5 times more than what I would do (without feeling sure about it).
Strawberry sounds interesting. I noticed you wrote this already in another thread. But I don't know, why you got this. Strawberry aroma seems to be more complicated than pineapple or banana.
Probably it makes a huge difference when exactly you add the sulphuric acid and if you store it then well sealed or not. I have decided first to add it to the muck and keep it sealed and then I add the muck to the low wines just before distilling. In theory I give esterification of higher alcohols in the muck a headstart this way.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by SaltyStaves »

I just wondered if there was a correlation between the acidity and the synthetic fruit?
The samples I have with more sensible levels of acid, are more natural and have more than one dimension (unlike the strawberry sample).
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

I think it's onedimensional, because it overpowers the other flavors. Not because the sulphuric acid destroys something.
If the main acid you got is for example butyric acid, you will have mainly butyric esters. And then it probably also depends on what alcohols you have, only ethanol or also a relative high amount of higher alcohols. Only ethanol and only butyric esters -> only ethyl butyrate. And if the flavor is so strong that it overpowers the other flavors (like the molasses flavor), it's onedimensional. Sulphuric acid helps the esterification. So it can cause onedimensionality. But I think the real mistake is not adding sulphuric acid, but to use too much infection and perhaps too onedimensional infections.
I expect a better Rum with using less infection but sulphuric acid, instead of using much infection without sulphuric acid, because sulphuric acid reduces the amount of unesterified acids and higher alcohols.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

Jesus der wo, I just read through this whole thread...

You are a mad scientist genius man.

I have an, I don't know, take away question?

Last page quote from you-
Adding infected dunder to the low wines:
pros: totally safe. Extreme efficient because of the high abv.
cons: The bacterias die immediately. The acids of the dunder turn to esters by a chemical reaction, that's all. I am not sure if this is everything or if there is something missing.
I run a thumper; it seems like my best option with infected dunder with that whole options and the one I quoted is to put infected dunder in my thump charge with low wines for best shot at esters?
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