My infected Rum

[der wo]

I run a thumper; it seems like my best option with infected dunder with that whole options and the one I quoted is to put infected dunder in my thump charge with low wines for best shot at esters?

I would put the dunder together with the low wines into the boiler. Then the acids have two chances (boiler and thumper) to convert to esters. And the thumper would either start empty or with a small amount of low wines without dunder. If you use sulphuric acid, I would use it in both, boiler and thumper.

[distiller_dresden]

Well my boiler is typically my wash, so my thumper is wash and whatever I add.

In this case I was thinking infected dunder in the boiler with wash, then wash in the thumper with infected dunder, as well as some feints from my previous rum run to up the ABV of the thump charge somewhat. I only charge my thumper with 32oz typically, and that's what (gallon thumper) the guy who made my still setup for me recommended. Do you think I could push the liquid more?

Usually when I'm done with a 5 gallon (full) run the thumper feels about 2/3 or 3/4 full of liquid.

Typically I run my wash through once and I'm done. When I make my cuts I save the heads and tails, obviously separate from hearts, then my heads and tails are added to the next pot run of the same. So since I haven't done rum since the last time I did rum, I have a jar of rum head and tails waiting for another rum run.

Sulfuric acid, I've followed somewhat Otis' thread, and read all what you've done with it; I don't even know where I'd get it. I guess it's to be respected, understood, and not feared.

[der wo]

You can buy battery acid, it's 30% sulphuric acid and 70% water.

For me your distilling protocol sounds not clean enough for Rum. But many here do it like you.

Putting the dunder into the thumper is very effective because of the high abv there. You will get many esters with only little dunder. But I fear you also get some not so good things, because from the thumper it's only a little step to the product cooler. So I think it's better to produce the esters in the boiler, although it's less effective.

[distiller_dresden]

What do you mean not clean enough? No offense taken; I'm wondering. You think I have opportunities for unwanted infections?

[der wo]

I mean not refined enough. Not enough distillations. The abv of our hearts is too low with a single run with thumper IMO. Rum hearts at 65-70% are not clean enough IMO.

[distiller_dresden]

Oh okay. If it is getting off topic, which I am particularly aware of, of late...

Perhaps you could PM me your interpretation of how you would rum with my setup? I promise der wo this is with pure interest and curiosity, not snark. I have a 5 gallon pot still, 1 gallon thump keg, all of it is copper and connected with copper.

[der wo]

The project of the thread is finished. I don't have a problem, when it moves off topic.

I would strip without the thumper. For example from 10% wash to 25% low wines. Or from 7% to 20%. Then grow the dunder. One day before the stripping run add sulphuric acid to the amount of dunder you want to use. Eventually add also a bit vinegar. If you have Rum feints, add them. Seal it. Then pour the undiluted low wines and the dunder into your still with thumper. A small amount of the mixture into the thumper (that there too is a good sour and sulphuric environment for esterification). Then distill slowly and make cuts of course.

Or experimental:
Use the thumper also for the stripping run. After stripping you will have not only low wines and dunder, but also lees (the dunder of the thumper). Make two pits, one with the dunder and a second with the lees plus added nutrients. A lees pit would be a great experiment.

[distiller_dresden]

I like this advice; thank you!

As to my lees; under normal circumstances, I was wondering what 'lees' would be for me. I guess I should be adding my lees to my dunder pit, I hadn't been doing that. That would definitely help to water it down as well, and add a little more to it as I typically had been adding some molasses to my thump with my wash and feints.

Hey, I don't think I ever read your results; how was the taste of that 375 Hampden?? What was it like?

[der wo]

All those words like "lees" or "acid" or "trash" have different meanings in each distillery unfortunately. I now used the word lees, because it's shorter than "the dunder from the thumper". And in some distilleries they use this word in this way. But lees can also mean the yeast sludge from the bottom of the fermenters for example.

The Hampden is very complex fruity (much pineapple, not much banana) and gluey, has what I describe as "vegetal sickness" (see what I wrote about my infected Rum result a few posts before), dundery but not tailsy, enough oak, but not overpowered by the wood. It's the "LROK". There is another bottle named "HLCF" with even more esters. This is the maximum you can buy worldwide probably. The LROK is at 90€, the HCLF 140€ per bottle high abv. Similar ester counts you get from Forsyths. More banana, not dundery. Same price level unfortunately.

[distiller_dresden]

I recently tried to buy some Hampden's anything, went to three different liquor stores, the biggest in Fort Wayne, where I live, they didn't even carry Hampdens. I didn't know what to buy then, so I got my old go to the ron rum even though it's got added vanilla and glycerin, I do like it's deep dark brown rummy taste. I was SO damned disappointed I would have bought anything Hampden's they had just to try a Hampden's. Damn bastards.

My stillin' buddy, my dad, I have him interested in oaks now, and he was so interested he was trying to buy a bottle of the Chivas they did on Japanese oak, from 2013, but damn if the only place in the U.S. it's available is some liquor store in MN. Can't ship to IN, so we either die without trying it, or have to justify a 20 hour road trip to MN lol...

[der wo]

Also in my country you find such Rums only in online shops.

Edit:
There are also online shops, which sell small samples in non-original bottles. In my country you can buy private samples very easy on ebay. This way I have enjoyed about 50 different Malt Whiskies the last two years without becoming an alcoholic or going bankrupt. I seldom buy whole bottles meanwhile.

[DetroitDIY]

Sorry gang, read through a few pages months ago, but not all 7, so I suspect the answer's in here somewhere but I'm going to ask anyways.

Making my first batch of Purgirum. 2 gal blackstrap, ~4 gal water, yeast bomb, yeast. Added in 3 gallons of infected dunder (infected "naturally") that has been growing in some form for the past 2 years. I did nothing to knock out the infection, just dumped it in and mixed it a bit as is. Most of the top infection funk went into my fermenter. Added a heater blanket and got some action, but nothing like everyone describes on the Pergirum thread. It's been a week now and the SG is still very high (didn't take a careful reading). I have not checked the pH. I'm guessing the established infection is dominating and may have wiped out the baker's yeast I dumped in.

I'm planning to boil the whole mess for 20 minutes or so and then re-pitch it with the baker's yeast. Please give a shout if you think this is the wrong move and may mess things up more.

Thanks,
DetroitDIY

[distiller_dresden]

Wow Detroit DIY - I don't have the answer, der wo certainly may, he's a darn alchemist! Sounds like a funky rum in the works though!

Der Wo - I was wondering (this may not be the place) if you could prepare a post that summarily lists out the process for making lime salts with intent of, obviously, making high ester rums (a la Hampdens)? Like supplies, steps, and then how best to use the salts for results - all in one post (or would that be it's own whole new thread?). Myself and JohnsMyName (who I think has contacted you via PM) are both committing to sulfuric and infected dunder and the whole nine yards to produce some funk. We both also got hold of a brick of 493 EDV, which makes significant esters, particularly over 90F ferment, and produces less heads.

[DetroitDIY]

Yes, I was hoping Der Wo would chime in.

Forgot to mention that I had also added 4 lbs sugar, and that when I looked today, there was an infection layer covering the entire top of the bucket (20 gallon trash can). Boiling tomorrow if I don't hear back.

[WeegieDistiller]

Detroit, you didn't mention Ph of the wash after adding the infected Dunder? You might have enough acids or bacteria in there to make it difficult for the yeast to get a footing.

[distiller_dresden]

Detroit, you didn't mention Ph of the wash after adding the infected Dunder? You might have enough acids or bacteria in there to make it difficult for the yeast to get a footing.

This. With all that dunder I imagine your PH could possibly be quite low. You want it at least 4.5-5 for the yeast to get working well. Check PH and get it in range if necessary, then repitch yeast also if necessary. I think typically you'd add infected dunder after 36 hours so that everything has a chance to get rolling, the yeast have reproduced to a good level, and they have a good foothold.

If your PH is not 4.5-5 I would get it there, then repitch yeast, since now the infected dunder has had a chance to get a foothold. If you get the PH (if that's the issue) balanced I think you have odds of making quite a funky ass rum, once yeast get rolling. Your process inadvertently matches Hampden's process pretty closely - their mash is started with 1/3 infected dunder in it. Hell once it works off you may find it's funkier than you even wanted, and use it for blending or barrel/domino aging can reduce funk to reasonable levels usually.

[JohnsMyName]

Good comments from the other guys. I’d def check acidity. Another thing that can cause issues is gravity. The osmotic pressure can over whelm the yeast. Are you sure it was black strap and not fancy grade? Also how much extra sugar did you add? Molasses washes put a lot of weight on yeast cell walls, plus adding dunder in place of water compounds this. Only stuck rum washes I’ve had were due to this and I use dunder in every one, that said I wait a day or 2 to add dunder. I’d try thinning a bit with water, oxygenating and over pitching some yeast you make happy in starter first.

[DetroitDIY]

OK, good feedback.

I checked the pH: 3.55. I have Calcium Carbonate powder… have to research a bit how much to add to raise the pH of 10 gal from 3.55 to 4.75… or I could just weigh out a bit, toss it in, and check.

Yes, I used Organic Blackstrap Molasses (stop laughing!). I used 4 lbs Organic Cane Sugar (I mean it!) a la Costco.

I was short on baking yeast, and mine was old, about 8 months past date. I pitched it with roughly 1/3 C of the old yeast. Then a day later added in a good ½ C of fresh purchased yeast.

I’ll use the CaCO3 to raise the pH to 4.75 and then add in another 2/3 to 1 C fresh baker’s yeast.

Thanks gang… really appreciate the support.

[distiller_dresden]

Yeah you definitely need to raise that PH - I think you'd be hard pressed to find charts or something - as you said you need to add 1/4c at a time and check PH after 10 minutes and a stir. Until you get to 4.75 (good). Then maybe add a gallon of water, and repitch yeast.

Usually a gallon of blackstrap and 4lbs sugar is perfect, about 8%abv. You may not need add water, but I would add water and 4 more pounds sugar, use dark brown. That way you have 2 gal blackstrap and 8lbs sugar. 1 gal and 4lbs is perfect for a 5 gal wash, you're just doubling it. Bring the volume up to 10 total gallons if you have room, before you adjust PH (water will raise it some, water is usually around 7.5-8). Then add 4lbs dark brown, stir in.

Then pitch 1/2c of yeast. Hydrate it first in like 16-20oz warm water (about 95F) with about 1/4c brown sugar mixed in. Let it sit half hour, then stir and then pitch that yeast - gives them a head start and I think at that with 10 gal, the extra sugar (for 8 total) and your PH balanced to 4.75 you will be running quick. That's gonna be some grand rum, methinks!

Don't forget to re-aerate the wash when you pitch.

[DetroitDIY]

Thanks Dresden, I'll work with it.

The recipe already has 2 gal blackstrap, 4 lbs sugar (called for brown but I only had the "white"... my understanding is brown is white with molasses added back in, soooo... what's the difference when I've dumped in 2 gal molasses?), 4 gal H20, 3 gal dunder, nutrient bomb, and yeast. Already 10 gal. But I can add whatever I want. It's in a 20 gal fermenter ... err... trash can.

I'll add a bit more water, and creep up with the CaCO3. Wasn't sure how long t let it react before measuring the pH, but it looks like you're thinking 10 min. I can stir vigorously each time. I did not airate much a all the first time. I was thinking that since I was already dumping in so much yeast (1 C ilo 2 little packets), that I didn't want it to do much aerobic growth. I also wasn't thinking to grow up a colony first, though I have all the equipment to do that properly for a 5 l pitch. Funny... I know to do that for my meads, but was being lazy for the rum.

I'll give it some attention tomorrow, re-pitch it, and hopefully report back with good feedback.

Here are a few pics... Two of the infected dunder (2 yrs in a bucket in the shop... smells very sweet and tasty), and two of the infected rum wash (also smells very sweet and tasty now).

[DetroitDIY]

Started adding the powdered CaCO3, and blending it with a long mixer attachment on my drill. Here were the doses and the resultant pH of the 11 gal wash:

Initial pH 3.54
Added 1/4 C [46 g] CaCO3, mixed it up, waited 5 minutes and...
New measurement was pH 3.60
Repeat same steps and measured pH 3.71
Repeat same steps and measured pH 3.78
Repeat same steps and measured pH 3.85

That made 1 C [186 g] Calcium Chloride, and the pH had gone up about 0.3. Wanted to get to 4.75; 0.9 more to go. I figured the rate of change would not be linear, but decided to add 3x as much as I had just added anyways and hope that it would end in the ballpark. Also, I didn't want to burn through my medium small bottle of the powered CaCO3, so I went the to local farm store and bought 50 lbs crushed oyster shells (which will make the chickens happy too).

I dumped in 400 g crushed shells, and blended the contents. But that did very little good as the shells wouldn't dissolve nearly so quickly... just swirled about the bottom due to the vortex. I mixed for a good 10-15 minutes and measured some, but rather little rise in pH.

Took the last 200 g crushed shells that I had planned to add and first dumped some in my mortar and pestle. Ground and ground, made some dust but it was ugly work, and I think I was damaging the surface finish of the pestle so stopped and just dumped in the last 200 g in it's partly powered state. Mixed it up again. Then notice that my mixer, which was galvanized steel, was losing the finish due to the acidity of the was I was mixing (and letting it rest without cleaning it off). Stopped using that and have since replaced it with a stainless Jiffy one.

I added 2 more lbs sugar and 2 more gallons water.

I re-activated a cup or so of bakers yeast in a large erlenmeyer flask with 5 liters water on a stir plate. After 20 minutes, I pitched that into the wash. Fortunately it started fermenting, even though I hadn't given it time for the pH to raise. That brings the total volume to 14 gallons. Wrapped a heater pad on the side of the fermenter wtih a towel around it.

Checked it about 4 days later and the SG was still about 1.050, I did not measure the OG. Temp was at 30 C. Not much fermenting action that I noticed at that time. I measured the pH and it was something like 4.15 (not positive on that). I sprinkled on another half cup yeast and stirred it in with a paddle. Still heard some CaCO3 chunks swishing around down there. Just checked on it today and it seems the ferment is going again. I'll check the SG in the next day or so and see how it's doing.

It seemed like when I first pitched this wash, the infection was winning. Then after adding the CaCO3 the first time, it seemed the yeast was fighting back. Now again, after having added more on top the other day, there's some, but I'm thinking less vigorous yeast action.

By the way, the dunder bucket that I used for this wash, where I pored off all the top mold funk when I added it in... I took a peek in the bucket of the remains the other day and it had a brand new replacement carpet of mold on it, and it smelled nice and sweet. Let's hope all this works out. I've got a 15 gallon barrel to get filling.

[NZChris]

I did nothing to knock out the infection, just dumped it in and mixed it a bit as is. Most of the top infection funk went into my fermenter.

That is recipe for a very random array of results, including many not so desirable ones. Heating it enough to sterilize it would have been better.

Not getting the OG doesn't matter if everything goes according to plan, but if it doesn't, it makes diagnosing any problems much more difficult.

Large pieces of CaCO3 are great for buffering an active wash, but CaCO3, whole or ground, is not ideal when pH is already out of control. Hydrated lime, Ca(OH)2, is better.

[DetroitDIY]

Thanks NZ. First time attempting to work with an infection. The more conventional washes in the past hadn't given me such fits. Round 2 should go differently I expect. Picking up some some Active Lime shortly.

[distiller_dresden]

In the future, you should siphon off dunder from below the infected pellicle and use that to infect the wash, and do it after about 36 hours of yeast activity to let it get hold -- plus you'll start off with a PH around 4.75-5 so you'll be in a perfect position to let everything run very well. I'll say if you heat the infected dunder you'll only get flavor from what it had, you won't get creation of more esters and the funky flavors that can come from the infections (like creamy or pineapple, for example). If you want to keep going for esters and development of other flavors, you'll want to use it infected, and I think if you wait 36 hours to let yeast establish you'd be okay. There's lots of us using infected dunder, just make sure your dunder is healthy and smells good/pleasant.

I do hope this works out because I think there is an opportunity for this to be a really estery, funky rum. Would love to try it if it comes out, because I think it has lots of promise -- just hard to know with having the 'breaks' that you did and having added the pellicle. Although it does look like a Hampden fermentation!

[SaltyStaves]

There's lots of us using infected dunder, just make sure your dunder is healthy and smells good/pleasant.

I do hope this works out because I think there is an opportunity for this to be a really estery, funky rum.

If your dunder smells pleasant, it will not contribute funk or complex esters to your rum. The bacteria that create those characters are anything but pleasant.

[distiller_dresden]

I disagree with this a bit; I've had perfectly infected dunder that made great batches of rum. When the PH got too high it started to smell unpleasant, but I lowered the PH again (more acidic) and the smells returned to pleasant. I suppose it could matter what one considers unpleasant, but I like the turned soy sauce/chocolate/tropical fruit smell of the infected dunder I've had.

[SaltyStaves]

I disagree with this a bit; I've had perfectly infected dunder that made great batches of rum. When the PH got too high it started to smell unpleasant, but I lowered the PH again (more acidic) and the smells returned to pleasant. I suppose it could matter what one considers unpleasant, but I like the turned soy sauce/chocolate/tropical fruit smell of the infected dunder I've had.

We are not talking about the same things here. High pH, which gives a rotten flesh aroma is a completely different matter and should be avoided.
I'm talking about baby vomit and faecal aromas in the dunder that turn into fruity esters when combined with alcohols.

[distiller_dresden]

Hey Detroit, how did that infected wash cook out? Haven't gotten any update on that...

[DetroitDIY]

Just came in from making cuts on my 4th run of the infected rum.

First one was a struggle as you all saw. But I though it ended up nice. I'm still lacking on the powers of olfactory description... it smelled nice. Honestly I can't say that I smell anything funky... but we'll see. Ran 13 gallons wash. Kept 1600 ml at avg. 74 ABV, put back 540 ml into feints: 75% retention. Overall, a low yield I though from that wash, but as I said... I struggled.

Second wash was 9 gallons plus maybe 1 gallon rum oils. I added the infected dunder on day 4 after pitching the was this time, worked much better. Kept 2975 ml at avg. 82 ABV, 1390 ml into feints: 68% retention. Better total yield, but less percentage kept. Smelled good.

Next I made a monster wash in one of the 55 gallon fermenters I recently built.

Ran something like 12 gallons this Saturday morning. Kept 3050 ml at avg. 78 ABV, 1295 ml into feints: 70% retention. I put back some early tails, but kept some mid tails. Partly fiddling with my flute and learning how to run it. My early tails were lower ABV than my mid tails due to rookie technique.

Ran another 9.5 gallons wash plus ~1.5 gallons old rum feints I had from 2 years ago on Sunday evening... just finished making those cuts. Kept 3620 ml at avg. 84 ABV, 3945 ml into feints: 48% retention. Guess this is the effect of adding a lot of feints... higher yield, but the feints are accumulating some, so less total retention.

I still have some 3 gallons feints, a mixture of 2 years ago and some fresher. I've got another run or two of wash left to go. I've got (4) 5 gallon buckets mostly filled with dunder and the infection in all of those, just beginning to ripen up. I keep the lids on my buckets, but this time I left them a little cracked. I'm thinking that a bit of O2 is good for them, but don't really know. With my old dunder pits (the ones I had siting for 2 years) one was much more interesting looking and smelling than the other. That interesting one had what I expect was a lower quality seal on the bucket, while the less interesting had a better seal (gasket included). So I'm thinking that a bit of interaction with the atmosphere may equal more interesting (tasty) to my mind. We'll see. The pennecilli (or whatever it was) seemed to re-develop pretty quickly on top of my fresh dunder between washes 2 & 3 when I made a point of transferring to infection. Hoping that will happen again.

All that said, I'm nearly through the 15 gallons of blackstrap molasses I had on hand. Need to look into a cheap local supply. Also in the process of landing a chuck of panela.

At present I have just under 3 gallons of keeps at an ABV of 84.5. I'm planning to cut it all down to 55 and dump it into a 15 gallon barrel I had used for mead a year ago... rehydrating the barrel this weekend too. I'm planning to fill it all up and forget it for a year or two . Not sure if I'll stick with infected blackstrap only, or blend in some un-infected panela.

I appreciate all the help folks on this thread gave me with my first difficult infected wash . Seems to be running smoother now.

Catch you later,
DetroitDIY

[distiller_dresden]

Are you combining all the cuts together? If there's esters they'll develop once you get some oak in contact with it to contribute its acids via aging. Rum should always be aged with oak, imho.