My infected Rum

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der wo
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My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

My threads My infected wheated Bourbon and My infected peated Malt Whisky get a new episode here.

My plan:
- One simple pure blackstrap mash fermented and stripped.
- The dunder will splitted in two parts for two different dunder pits. The first one will get infected with ingredients to create butyric esters and will be added to the second blackstrap mash. The other one will get infected with ingredients to create lactic esters and will be added to the third blackstrap mash.
- The dunder of the second and third strip will be added to the two pits.
- The low wines will get diluted a bit with both of the dunders and run through a short reflux column.
- Both infected dunders will get cooked (sterilized) and fermented with raw cane sugar, stripped, diluted with infected dunder and run through the short reflux column too.
- Both rums are aged with sticks separately and perhaps blended after aging.
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der wo
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

The first mash and starting the two dunder pits:

0.3l/0.37kg (per liter final mash volume) blackstrap molasses, a bit nutrients and calcium carb were solved with a bit boiling water and then topped up with cold water. SG 1.139. Fresh bakers yeast. The smell of the ferment was a bit like elderberry or cassis lemonade. The FG was 1.065. The SG-FG calc says this means 9.6% alcohol.
I stripped a little more than 1/3 boiler volume, 29% abv low wines, the abv of the wash calculated by the stripping result is 9.9%.


Then I poured the hot dunder onto calcium carb and calcium hydroxide (each 3 tbsp per 10l), let it cool down overnight. Next day I splitted it in two buckets:

1st bucket: The uncleaned backset bucket of my peated malt whisky project with still 200ml old infected backset. And I added a raw potato to increase clostridium bacterias, which produce butyric acids.

2nd bucket: A clean bucket. I added 2 tsp yogurt bacterias (Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium lactis B12, Streptococcus thermophilus), which produce lactic acids.


Now I want to wait at least one month. And hope the funk band plays loud!
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Cleco »

Bootsy Collins played funk?
Alcohol is proof God wants us to be happy.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Oldvine Zin »

Cleco wrote:Bootsy Collins played funk?
No he just dressed that way :lol:
If you fake the funk, your nose will grow.(BC)

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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Boootzilla!!!
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Vanmark »

I'll be following this with interest.

So far I have been adding live dunder two days after starting a fermentation. The fermentation is started on the old yeast bed along with some fresh yeast. Idea being to give the yeast a fighting chance. I then allow for a slow fermentation and a long rest. So far I have not noticed much, if any, effect. I still need to do a spirit run, but in the low wines it was not appreciably different from the batches without the live dunder.

I like the idea of diluting the low wines with live dunder and distilling that. I think I will give it a try next week with the low wines I have sitting around.

Also, the potato... why not just use dirt?
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Here a copy&paste from Odin on adding infected backset to the low wines:
My experience is that, when using fresh backset right of the still to start up a new generation, the backset does not add much to the taste. At least the true "sour mash" taste that sour mash whiskey has, is not obviously present in my results.My (current) conclusion is this: that the sour mash taste comes over mostly from bacterial activity. And I know many sour mash pro distillers add bacteria on the last day of their 3 day fermentation cycle.
But there may be another solution. If you want sour mash taste. Not long ago I wanted to do a finishing run, but my low wines ... weren't enough. Yet, I still had some 20 liters of hot backset from the last strip run, just finished, in the boiler. I added the 20 liters of low wines to the 20 liters of backs-set and did a potstill finishing run on that.
Result? All the sour mash taste you could look for. In fact it was too much!
So my conclusions are that sour mashing is great to create the right environment for the new fermentation cycle to start off (nutrients, ph, etc.), but that for the real sour mash taste, you need to leave some backset in the boiler. Or add some backset to the low wines prior to the finishing run. Not 50/50 as I did, but maybe 25/75. Or add bacteria, at some stage during the ferment, but my experience is that that's hard to control. Before you know it, you have a full scale infection and you can start all over again.

This is what I wrote about the potato in the "Infected Peated Malt" -thread:
vegetables grown in the earth contain clostrodia, which produce butyric acid, the esters are pineapple-like
I never heard of adding dirt to dunder. But yes, why not dirt? I don't know. Perhaps dirt works too.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Development of the two dunder pits:

The first bucket (the dirty one with old Malt Whisky backset) had developed within 2 days a pellicle, the second with the yoghurt starter needed 2 days longer. Unfortunately both infections died after a week (or slowed down?). I tried to add a bit sugar and to add a bit more calcium carb. Didn't help. Unfortunately I had no pH-meter, only pH-strips, and they don't work with such a dark liquid. So I decided to buy online a cheap pH-meter. Unfortunately shipping needed a while, so I lost two more weeks.

The measured pH was 4.6. Low but not too low. I rised it to 5.5 with calcium hydroxide, it didn't help. So I realized the problem was the high gravity. I decided to dilute it more: To 8l backset I poured 10l water. This solved the problem, the infection started again. And because of the current high temperature in my region it grew very fast.

Here current pics of the two dunder pits:
infected with yogurt starter
infected with yogurt starter
infected with an old infected malt backset bucket and raw potato
infected with an old infected malt backset bucket and raw potato
I am very happy that they look very different. So perhaps they taste different and I can learn something from the experiment.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

Very very interesting der wo, I'm going to read a little more on infections to have a better perspective on what's going on on the different flavors they impart on different spirits.
Where did you learn about them and how to purposely infect and what profiles they offer to a spirit?
I'll do some research myself but would like a direction in to where you got your information on these matters.

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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Most ideas I got from hd. This is a good read:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=56303
And in my two other threads (linked in the first post here) you can read everything about infections I did.

And search for the pdfs from Arroyo "heavy bodied rums".

And here is something: http://whiskyscience.blogspot.de/search?q=lactic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://cocktailchem.blogspot.de/2014/04 ... s-are.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Corsaire »

This is very interesting.
I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but recently I tasted Forsyth's Worthy Park Jamaican pot still rum, which was amazing. The label clearly says high congeners and man they weren't lying. I was put off by the smell at first, it had a weird smelly feet smell up front, covering up some sweet and fruity tones. The taste started with something I can only describe as funk, going over woody notes and finishing with distinctly exotic fruit flavours.
The label boasts about a 3 month ferment. Being in Jamaica I thought that the actual wash fermented out fast like a typical molasses wash, but got deliberately infected with other bacteria and yeasts. I know Brettanomyces can give beers that sweaty smell sometimes found in Belgian sour beers, so i figured the funkiness came from infected wash, where Brett and bacteria finish off some less fermentable sugers, instead of infected dunder.

Have you ever let your wash get infected after primary fermentation?
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

I mentioned those "Habitation velier" -rums here a few weeks ago:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... n#p7473869
Unfortunately not very cheap. The fermentation from the yeast is fast in Jamaica. But the bacterial work after it? 3 months, yes, they claim it, I don't know, I would think, all the alcohol would turn to vinegar this way.

An infected beer will always contain many acids, because the esterification is not complete with this low abv. When you distill it, you provoke esterification and the remaining acids will remain in the boiler mostly and the fruity esters get carried over into the distillate. So with a spirit you can choose a way greater amount of infection/acids than with beer.

A cheap rum with such fruity flavors is the Hampden Gold:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... n#p7464706

Here someone with an infected Malt Whisky. Simply by not boiling the mash and by fermenting open:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7474470
This inspires me. I will not sterilize the dunder this time before mashing, and then let the ferment open. Keep you informed...
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Corsaire »

Interesting links, it seems I've got a lot of reading to do. It dawned on me that two beers I enjoy, Orval and Wild Jo, get much (or even all) of their funkiness during bottle conditioning. In both cases a Brett strain is added to the bottle, so definately after the primary ferment has processed the easy sugars. There's no intimidating gunk layer in the bottles :)
I'll be following your updates with interest.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Corsaire wrote:There's no intimidating gunk layer in the bottles :)
In my experience the pellicle layer grows only when the ferment is open. If the mash is covered with CO² it doesn't grow. I am not sure, if it's always like this, but that's what I experienced with my infected backsets and dunders. And it explains why a brett beer from the bottle doesn't look very special.
And BTW generally I don't think I have much brett yeast working in my infections. I think it's mainly bacterias.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

I have an open ferment that's 3 months old now, no backset or anything. At the end of fermentation it got what looked to be a lacto infection, it doesn't smell like shit nor does it have maggots sooo, how long can a ferment sit with an infection and still be OK to run?

In the link of intentionally infecting I seen jed say he had a ferment a few month old, will an infection eat away at the alcohol to it becomes nothing?

This was a honey bear that neglected because of my out of town work.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

I had a ferment sit 9 months with a lacto. Best damn sugar head I ever had.

Run it!
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

Thanks SCD, makes me feel better knowing.
Honestly I'm scared to taste it but it doesn't smell like vinegar so that's promising and the infection looks pretty scary.
I'm about to start a rum ferment and I'm thinking of using a gallon of this to infect it twards the end of fermentation and let it set for a month or so to see what comes of it.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Your question touches a question I haven't solved completely:
What prevents the wash from turning the alcohol complete to vinegar? Is it the pellicle barrier, which protects the wash, because no air touches the wash?
Ethanol + oxygen -> vinegar + water
So without oxygen the vinegar bacterias will not work. But is this barrier effective enough for many months storage? I don't know.

If I want a long infection of a wash, I wouldn't touch it before I distill it. Not moving the fermenter, not dropping in a hydrometer (although it would be interesting, because when vinegar bacterias work the SG is rising).

Even if it has a strong vinegar smell, I would strip it.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

Not vinegar at all, actually it's not bad smells at all.
It just looks like it could bite you if you reached in there. Lol
I need to do a steaming of my still since it's set for 2 months, then I'll load it up and see what happens.
Would you (if you could) steam the grains in the thumper or not? Of course put the clear mash in boiler.
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Re: My infected Rum

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Shine0n wrote:Would you (if you could) steam the grains in the thumper or not? Of course put the clear mash in boiler.
Yes. This is the No.1 reason to build a thumper I think. And the reason to build the thumper not too small.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

I just finished the crossover section to use a 15.5 keg as my thumper. Previous one was 7.5 gal so when stripping I could only use 3.5 gal because of it filling up too high.

I'll steam the rig tonight to get ready for the run and I'll report the findings.
But I'll keep an open eye on this thread too because I'm going to as well infect a rum (not dunder) wash.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

der wo wrote:Your question touches a question I haven't solved completely: What prevents the wash from turning the alcohol complete to vinegar?
Not in any way shape or form an expert in vinegar but it looks like we're talking about having the correct bacteria and then time. This article suggests 30-60 days before it builds up acetic acid, which the article says is what we generally recognize as vinegar. With a 3-7 day fermentation I would not expect this process to get very far even with an open ferment and unsterilized wort. A closed ferment with sterilized wort I would expect very little if any vinegar production. For you guys with longer ferments it sounds like if it isn't infected with the correct bacteria then it won't turn into vinegar.

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Your-Own-Vinegar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

There are three methods of producing vinegar:
1. Simply a glass with alcohol and water. Sealed only with a cloth. This is the slowest method.
2. A closed container with alcohol, water and vinegar bacteria, in which is permanentely pumped pure oxygen.
3. A glass with something like zeolith, which contains the bacteria. Ethanol and water is sprayed into the glass and after a while drained empty. And after a while again sprayed.
All three methods say, that the oxygen is needed for the reaction.

I know one seller who sells a hobby reactor with method No.3. And he claims it needs 4 - 14 days depending on batch size.


SMY,
your post reads like it was impossible or extreme unlikely, that one of our washes turns to vinegar.
But we had members with washes, which turned to vinegar. And we don't know what exactly was the crucial mistake they did. I suspect oxygen contact like:
- stirring it
- taking samples for SG measurements
- and perhaps removing the pellicle, because it looks ugly.
Or were they wrong? It wasn't vinegar? Or only little vinegar? But they never found out, because they dumped it?
That's why I am unsure.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

I don't know why people's wort ended up smelling like vinegar. I am speculating that it might be that a small amount of the acetic acid is very aromatic and can be detected at low levels. The people that did think their wort went to vinegar probably got an infection of some sort. I would think it would take a few days to show up. If the bacteria requires alcohol then it takes a day or two for the wort to produce enough alcohol to feed the bacteria, and then the bacteria has to grow from there. Is it impossible? No. I just don't know how much could be produced in a few days. I would assume that the bacteria is similar to yeast, outside of the idea environment it takes longer to get started. I have no idea what that idea environment is. Fermenting wort could be perfect, it could be horrible. The bacteria does require oxygen so a closed ferment should never turn to vinegar unless the seal goes bad.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Single Malt Yinzer wrote:I am speculating that it might be that a small amount of the acetic acid is very aromatic and can be detected at low levels.
That's what I think too. Although the vinegar level is low, the vinegar smell is very dominating. And then they dump the wash instead of give it a try and strip it.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by The Baker »

I am still using a very nice vinegar (maybe 5 bottles left) that wasn't supposed to happen, from a peach or apricot run. maybe five or more years ago.

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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

...and do you remember, what you did wrong?

How did air get into the mash?
How long did it need?
Was the alcohol fermentation before normal?
Were there visual signs like a pellicle?
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Jes2xu »

Just want to say a dirty great big thank you on behalf of the noobs out there. (that and I wanted to comment so the thread is saved for me haha)

Pretty cool we get to read along with experiments like this. Dunderpits are pretty fascinating, so will be following this!
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

I just see you have a new video, silly ideas about sanitizing fermenters... :roll:
Courageous of you to post here on enemy's ground. Don't forget to sanitize your hands after posting here. :lol:
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

I have no infection to put into the rum ferment I made this afternoon, but I may by the time the ferment is finished and let it set for a couple weeks that way.

I'm still reading those threads you (der wo) so graciously provided earlier. Some very interesting things going on in there!
I haven't had luck with an infected dunder pit as I seen no real improvement or was somewhat resistant to keep at it.
I'm done with simple moonshine that's why I've progressed, now I want funky (but good) interesting type od drinks.
The last honey bear got a lacto or bret infection that turned out some fine spirit, I have a 3 month old sugar piggy back of the hbb that got infected as well and will run it soon as possible.
I plan on making a new dunder pit now since the weather has gotten hot and try different things with the new things I'm learning.
Thanks der wo for the " funk "
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