High Ester Rum

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OtisT
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

distiller_dresden wrote:Beautiful Otis! What was the toast finish on the wood for that barrel you had the rum in? I need to figure out what I am going to do for 2 BadMo barrels...
These I toasted myself at 400 F for 2 hours on the inside only. I’d call it a medium toast.
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Re: High Ester Rum

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Saltbush Bill wrote:
OtisT wrote:There is also something new that may be caramel,

Otis I doubt you would have been disappointed had you let it oak longer, I believe the caramel would have developed further given time,that seems to be the case with mine anyway.
I know, that was a really tough call to pull it from the barrel now. I’m still focused on experimenting a lot versus production volume, and I may make a few bad calls along the way. My biggest concern was over oaking with the new oak barrel and hiding all that sweet rum taste. I also figured I had more than enough volume to try a few different things with the batch. It does taste good now, and I’ve got a few friends that are owed some of my juice. ;-).

All that said, I did put half back in with some fresh make, triple distilled rum. That all should continue to develop, at a slower pace, and hopefully I will get all that caramel (or whatever it is) eventually. Time will tell. Thanks, Otis
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Shine0n »

I had some from early 2016 and man that shit was oaky as hell, fast forward to Jan 2018 and is one of my favorites. Nice vanilla up front and caramel on the back end.
It was also done on oak at 400 for 2 hours, that has seemed to be the best temp for the size domino's I make.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Oldvine Zin »

OtisT wrote:HER 1 Update - 14 weeks in the barrel

After three months I sampled my first batch of double pot stilled molasses rum (HER 1) that was in a toasted new american oak Badmo barrel.
It smells wonderful. I still smell the base of my molasses rum with all sorts of sweet fruitiness. The first few new smells that hit me were Vanilla and Butter. The Vanilla hits me first thing, while the butter seems to come and go. I can lightly smell the toasted oak underneath the heavier scents. There is also something new that may be caramel, or similar. Just can't quite name it. Any hint of tails or dunder that was in the barrel cut is no longer detectable.

It tastes a lot stronger of oak/toast than it smells. I would loved to have put this in a once used barrel, but I only had new. I don't what to over oak this so for me it's enough. I decided to pull the rum now, before too much more oak flavor gets in there. 6.5 liters at 65%. ( I was both lightly sampling and topping off this barrel over the three months.)
IMG_1057.JPG

I bottled some up to share and will figure out what to do with the rest at a later date.

Otis
Came home to a surprise package - Thanks Otis!! I'll try some tomorrow

OVZ
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

Oldvine Zin wrote: Came home to a surprise package - Thanks Otis!! I'll try some tomorrow

OVZ
I hope you enjoy it. I don’t often have folks who know distilling try my product, so please be brutally honest if you want to give me any feedback on it. In the long run it will help me make better stuff.

Otis
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

OtisT wrote:
Oldvine Zin wrote: Came home to a surprise package - Thanks Otis!! I'll try some tomorrow

OVZ
I hope you enjoy it. I don’t often have folks who know distilling try my product, so please be brutally honest if you want to give me any feedback on it. In the long run it will help me make better stuff.

Otis
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

OtisT wrote:
zapata wrote:Sweet, all around success then. Love the labels!
I totally stole the idea from a scotch clearing house someone here on HD posted about.
I can see that guy anytime in the mirror / the idea does work for any kind of our elements, yeah :)

har druckit för mycket
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

Hey Otis, thinking about your comments RE your barreled rum...

It kind of occurs to me that maybe you felt that it was/could've been reaching for, in your personal opinion, getting more oaked than you wanted, or you weren't sure at least. Would you in the future/next time maybe wait to barrel up your rum until the barrel had seen another spirit/been used for something else first, and maybe a fresh/first barrel for the rum was too soon?

Right before I get my first two BadMo barrels and I have 90oz of white 120 rum that's fresh, and 60oz that's been on an oak domino and a maple domino for a couple weeks, I was going to mix them and put them into a BadMo but am wondering this and thought your input would be an important part of this decision process.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

DD. You are correct in that I did feel my rum in a new barrel had gotten enough oak, but I also feel it had not gotten enough time. I knew this was a risk putting it in the new barrel, but I have what I have and I work with that. I’m learning as I go. So, if I had a once used barrel, I would have used it for my rum. Also, a lighter toast new barrel may also have worked better. I’m new to this, so I’m still learning what my preferences for matching spirits with wood.

I think your plan of putting in part new make with part domino aged spirit into the badmo is fine. Just as long as your jars contain something good, go for it. I have done that with other spirits with success.

I would not simply put any crap in a barrel just to “use” it. My recommendation is that if you have a new barrel, make a proper ferment and spirit that needs/wants that style of new barrel, and age it proper. If it’s a bourbon barrel, make a bourbon. In a few years you will have something nice to drink and then you can make something that wants a once used bourbon barrel. This is a long game.

What I did to address polishing HER1:
I have two issues to “fix” with my batch of HER. 1) Some of the HERum I pulled was diluted for bottling. I received some feedback that it was it was definitely high in esters, but maybe not in a good way. The unique taste/smell is at this time, unidentified. I have smelled/ tasted enough of it that I am ok with the smell/taste, but that may just be acquired acceptance. I think it may need to be tamed/thinned in flavor a bit. 2) Feedback was that more time on oak may work this out.

What I did to address the issue was to blend/dilute my pot stilled HE spirit with some cleaner triple distilled new make. I pulled out half of the volume of the barrel aged rum and replace it with Tripple distilled new make that is smoother. This will remove some of the oak, and slow down the polishing so hopefully I get the age I want w/o too much oak. Time will tell. I hope this addresses some of the “new barrel” issue.

I put the other half of my HER that came from the new barrel into a twice used bourbon mini-barrel. Not sure how long I will leave it in there, but I’ll be checking every week or so and will see where it goes. Better/worse? Time will tell.

Otis
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

I'm glad for your input; I may hold off on putting that new make rum into a barrel because I don't want to over-oak it. I am definitely going to pick up a mid-bottle of port to soak a barrel with, putting if face-down (instead of a water fill). Then I'm making a double batch of scotch with Golden Promise malt and White Labs scotch whisky yeast, which I've heard a lot of good about, or the Scotch ale yeast, which also makes a fine scotch. That'll fill the barrel that was port-soaked, and I'll leave that at least a year, and I plan to use THAT barrel for a great rum age once I drain and proof the scotch down. I figure the scotch/port and the slightly used oak should make for a wonderful character in a new make rum, and my rum game a year from now should be significantly improved to the point of intermediate, at least (I hope!).

I'd love to taste your high ester rum, like an airline bottle lol. Although maybe I wouldn't like it? I don't know, I just tried Hamilton black which is apparently related to Worthy Park or from there in some way... Reviews online say 'grassy' and 'olives' and even licorice, which of course licorice, but to me it tastes like all dunder and it's awfully hard to drink. I have a bottle of it and I think I'll use it to up the ABV in my thumper like I would use feints for rum runs. It's nothing like any rum I've had before, and I have no idea how people get 'grassy' out of straight dunder. I wish I could taste the rum before they mixed dunder in, there seems something behind the dunder, but that is SO overpowering I can't pick it out.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by WeegieDistiller »

Has anyone here tried using different types of yeast for rum other than your standard brewers/bakers yeast?

I've picked up some brett yeast from the local homebrew shop while stocking up on supplies and might give it a go.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

Yeah do that! Almost none of us shooting for esters are using bakers. Good rum yeasts suggested by "The Distillers Guide to Rum" are White Labs sweet mead yeast and 1116. I want to try 483EDV but can only find it to order from NZ. Saison yeasts Otis has used.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by WeegieDistiller »

I will give it a go then. I was curious about the profile from The Yeast Bay website. Pineapple and tropical fruit aroma/taste followed by the typical barnyard funk... I might split it intl 2 batches - fancy vs feed grade molasses.

I have used lallemand rum yeast before which I reckon is the same strain as the EDV493, I can get it for around £40 per Kg! It does make quite a nice rum but needs to ferment between 30-35°C and in Scotland that is a bit tricky to maintain without upgrades.

A friend who works at a local Whisky Distillery managed to blag a kilo of their yeast for me to try as well. Again I think it's a lallemand strain.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

Def give it a go - that sounds like a typical Jamaican ester profile! I picked up a wrap heater for my hot ferments. They also make basically heating pads, but those aren't controllable and no range.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071R ... UTF8&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I use this on a 13 gal food grade plastic barrel. It doesn't wrap all the way, but then I wrap it in a blanket. It's perfect
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Timoun222 »

Hello!
I m making some pure sugar cane rum and some molasses rum with a pot still (double distillation).
I’m doing it in south east Asia so I have some cane sugar available to make my rum!
I have a few question but it’s regarding the high ester rum. Last year I did some tests of high ester rum, spontaneous fermentation, using my clear Dunder (the one left over after all my stripping runs from molasse washes). I did a few tests changing the proportion of water, molasse and clear Dunder but the proportion which went well was :
30 L dunder
45 L water
25 KG molasse
(No yeast, open lid, I ve just added some piece of crushed cane that I I had after my press). The density at the begging was 1.090 and about 1.040 after 10 days and didn’t change after that. I assumed that the fermentation was done. It took a few run to obtain a small amount of high ester rum but it the smell and the taste were very funky and fruity!

I’d like to do it again this year but I think that I may have done some mistake last year.

Here are my questions now :

- should I add sugar to my wash ? (I didn’t put any)
- should I try to start an infected dunder ?
I’ve seen so many recipes here but I don’t want to put any fruits or whatever. I was thinking about adding some lees (dead yeast in my fermentation tanks) in the clear dunder or in the infected dunder?
- right now I don’t have any dunder from molasses because I only did this year stripping runs from pure sugar cane. The dunder from the pure sugar cane fermented is it the same (quantity of acid…, taste)?

Sorry that s a lot of questions I know but I’m very excited to start my new experiences with high ester rum!

Thank you
Julien
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Bolverk »

Timoun222 wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 1:57 am Here are my questions now :

- should I add sugar to my wash ? (I didn’t put any)
- should I try to start an infected dunder ?
I’ve seen so many recipes here but I don’t want to put any fruits or whatever. I was thinking about adding some lees (dead yeast in my fermentation tanks) in the clear dunder or in the infected dunder?
- right now I don’t have any dunder from molasses because I only did this year stripping runs from pure sugar cane. The dunder from the pure sugar cane fermented is it the same (quantity of acid…, taste)?

Sorry that s a lot of questions I know but I’m very excited to start my new experiences with high ester rum!

Thank you
Julien
If you have access to fresh cane juice I'd use that over sugar, but yes you can add sugar. At least in the Hampden process they only use 10% molasses the rest of the sugar comes from the cane juice skimmings. Really it depends on how much molasses flavor you want.

I'd make a muck pit, take some of your stillage, add a bit of the old yeast trub, and some cane trash and let it sit, keep the pH around 4. The natural yeast and bacteria living on the cane will inoculate the pit. You can inoculate it with some vinegar mother, lactobacillus and or clostridium bacterium if you want to get things moving faster. (Add this muck to the boiler when you do your spirit run, or if you have a thumper/retort add it there)

There are so many recipes because there is no right/wrong way to make high ester rum... virtually anything goes in rum.

Sorry, I dont understand your last question.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

Timoun222 wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 1:57 am Hello!
I m making some pure sugar cane rum and some molasses rum with a pot still (double distillation).
I’m doing it in south east Asia so I have some cane sugar available to make my rum!
I have a few question but it’s regarding the high ester rum. Last year I did some tests of high ester rum, spontaneous fermentation, using my clear Dunder (the one left over after all my stripping runs from molasse washes). I did a few tests changing the proportion of water, molasse and clear Dunder but the proportion which went well was :
30 L dunder
45 L water
25 KG molasse
(No yeast, open lid, I ve just added some piece of crushed cane that I I had after my press). The density at the begging was 1.090 and about 1.040 after 10 days and didn’t change after that. I assumed that the fermentation was done. It took a few run to obtain a small amount of high ester rum but it the smell and the taste were very funky and fruity!

I’d like to do it again this year but I think that I may have done some mistake last year.

Here are my questions now :

- should I add sugar to my wash ? (I didn’t put any)
- should I try to start an infected dunder ?
I’ve seen so many recipes here but I don’t want to put any fruits or whatever. I was thinking about adding some lees (dead yeast in my fermentation tanks) in the clear dunder or in the infected dunder?
- right now I don’t have any dunder from molasses because I only did this year stripping runs from pure sugar cane. The dunder from the pure sugar cane fermented is it the same (quantity of acid…, taste)?

Sorry that s a lot of questions I know but I’m very excited to start my new experiences with high ester rum!

Thank you
Julien
Hi Julien.

Adding processed sugar will dilute the flavor of your rum. If you want less rum funk/flavor, then add some sugar or less funk.

I had a fun time experimenting with infected dunder/backset making high ester rum and whiskey. I found the key to getting a good infection was managing PH. Read up on that if you want to speed things up.

Half the high ester spirits I made with infected dunder had some off smells that ruined those batches for me. There are much better threads than this one for learning about doing high esters with more control. For anyone new to rum I would highly suggest learning to make a quality rum without all the funk before chasing infections.

As for differences in the two types of backset used in a muck pit, I don’t know the answer to that.

Best of luck to you.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Timoun222 »

Hello!
Thank you for your answer.
But what is the purpose to do infected dunder just to put it in the spirit run? I know that yeast uses acids to make ester right ? So if use the infected dunder in my fermentation tank what is the role of the infected dunder to create esters?
Cheers!
Julien


Bolverk wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:08 am
Timoun222 wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 1:57 am Here are my questions now :

- should I add sugar to my wash ? (I didn’t put any)
- should I try to start an infected dunder ?
I’ve seen so many recipes here but I don’t want to put any fruits or whatever. I was thinking about adding some lees (dead yeast in my fermentation tanks) in the clear dunder or in the infected dunder?
- right now I don’t have any dunder from molasses because I only did this year stripping runs from pure sugar cane. The dunder from the pure sugar cane fermented is it the same (quantity of acid…, taste)?

Sorry that s a lot of questions I know but I’m very excited to start my new experiences with high ester rum!

Thank you
Julien
If you have access to fresh cane juice I'd use that over sugar, but yes you can add sugar. At least in the Hampden process they only use 10% molasses the rest of the sugar comes from the cane juice skimmings. Really it depends on how much molasses flavor you want.

I'd make a muck pit, take some of your stillage, add a bit of the old yeast trub, and some cane trash and let it sit, keep the pH around 4. The natural yeast and bacteria living on the cane will inoculate the pit. You can inoculate it with some vinegar mother, lactobacillus and or clostridium bacterium if you want to get things moving faster. (Add this muck to the boiler when you do your spirit run, or if you have a thumper/retort add it there)

There are so many recipes because there is no right/wrong way to make high ester rum... virtually anything goes in rum.

Sorry, I dont understand your last question.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Bolverk »

Timoun222 wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:18 pm Hello!
Thank you for your answer.
But what is the purpose to do infected dunder just to put it in the spirit run? I know that yeast uses acids to make ester right ? So if use the infected dunder in my fermentation tank what is the role of the infected dunder to create esters?
Cheers!
Julien
The bacteria in the muck (infected dunder) create carboxylic acids, when you mix these acids with alcohol in a low water environment, you get esters. By putting the muck in the spirit run you are putting those acids in a higher alcohol/low water environment and adding heat making it more likely that the esters will form and carry over in your distillate.

Yes, the yeast will create amino acids that will form esters (Ehrlich pathway) but it's in a much lower concentration so if you want the upper end of normal just under pitch your yeast and ferment hot, but if you want more esters than just the yeast can produce then you need an alternative source of acids.

You can put the muck in the stripping run, but it won't be as effective.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Timoun222 »

Thank you so much guys!
Eventually I’ve decided to start an infected dunder but without adding any fancy stuffs and just use what I had:
I’ve just used the stillage (from a pure sugar cane stripping run) mix with dead yeast (from my fermentation tank) and some pieces of cane trash (bagasse). The pH is still quite low though. It’s around 3.5. The mix is in an open plastic barrel and after 2 days I already have some action at the surface (see picture below).
I will try to raise the pH till 4.5 with some calcium hydroxide perhaps. Let’s see.
Cheers
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Bolverk »

Looks good already. Does it have any smell coming off it yet?

Traditionally the bottom of the muck pits would be lined with marl clay (clay made from slacked lime) it would keep the pH from dipping below 4.5. You can use some crush oyster shells in a cotton bag (like the ones you can get for loose leaf teas) hang the bag so it's about halfway down the muck to achieve the same pH buffering effect.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by NZChris »

Be very careful if you use calcium hydroxide. It's very reactive compared to marl or shells. Accidentally go too high and I doubt you will want to use it.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Timoun222 »

Yes it smells like very ripe fruit (I’d say very ripe pineapple).
I’ll try to see if i can find some oyster shells here. Thank you.
How I can know that the pit is “ready” to use ?
I’ve just started a few days ago so I have plenty of time…
Cheers
Bolverk wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 9:03 pm Looks good already. Does it have any smell coming off it yet?

Traditionally the bottom of the muck pits would be lined with marl clay (clay made from slacked lime) it would keep the pH from dipping below 4.5. You can use some crush oyster shells in a cotton bag (like the ones you can get for loose leaf teas) hang the bag so it's about halfway down the muck to achieve the same pH buffering effect.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Bolverk »

Timoun222 wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:06 am Yes it smells like very ripe fruit (I’d say very ripe pineapple).
I’ll try to see if i can find some oyster shells here. Thank you.
How I can know that the pit is “ready” to use ?
I’ve just started a few days ago so I have plenty of time…
Cheers
Feed store would be a good place to start, worst case you can buy it on Amazon.

Hard to say... there are a lot of variables and its whatever your preference is. Id give it at least a month and reevaluate from there. The longer it goes the more acids will build up (to a point) and the more potent it will be.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by NZChris »

Any shells will do, even egg shells.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Timoun222 »

Hello!
Just to give an update regarding my dunder pit…
Everything seems to be ok as the smell is still like very ripe fruit (as I said it’s really like a very ripe pineapple smell). Things happen on surface, it changes a bit every day. I ve found some egg shells that I will clean, dry and mix to rise the pH till 4 or 4.5. I’ll see if it works.
Should I mix the pit at some point?
Cheers!
Julien
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Bolverk »

No you don't want to disturb the pelicule if you can avoid it. Just leave it alone until you start to see the pelicule start to sink, that'll be an indication that your pH is starting to get too low.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Timoun222 »

Hello,
Just a quick update as it has been 3 weeks now since I’ve started my dunder pit.
As mentioned, I’ve put some egg shells powder (I did it by myself) in a bag inside my barrel. The pH hasn’t changed after 10 days, it’s still around 3,5…
The smell is still ok but I have a few insect larvae near the surface :wtf: but I presume this is still not bad…
Cheers!
Julien
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Bolverk »

The previous pic looked better.

Egg shells will work to help buffer the solution, but you'll need a lot to correct it.

I'd pull out about a half gallon of the liquid and mix in some pickling lime (you can get in the canning section of the grocery store or on Amazon). Keep doing this until the pH is up around 4.5, then add the oyster shells.
Last edited by Bolverk on Fri Feb 09, 2024 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by NZChris »

There won't be much bacterial activity at low pHs.
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