High Ester Rum

[distiller_dresden]

I'm so happy to be a part of this family here on the board, there is SO much expertise. I wouldn't know where to begin if I saw blue foggy tails coming, but I'd be assuming foggy feints and a nitrogen reaction together. This blue oil is a strange one and confuses me so I'm so very happy for you that Der Wo had expertise to apply to hopefully remedy this given all the care, time, and especially heart and soul you've put into your rum Otis. If I am worried and hoping for you, I can't imagine your own frustration and hand-wringing.

At the same time, damn, I love this hobby so much; hobby doesn't even fit right. I just f-ing LOVE this... Way of life. This zen art of practice. It is something a lifetime can still never master, but would be well-applied toward doing just that.

[CatCrap]

Sorry to hear it otis. My only advice... sleep on it... for a week at least. The solution will come to you. I'm a bit late on my response, but, just don't do anything in haste. Hey, at least you caught this NOW, right? Much worse if you'd put it down for aging for a while then discovered. Actually.. now that i think of it..

Could this issue go away with aging? Perhaps the bitterness will develop some great character after aging. After all.. time and oak can do some wonderful magical things, no?

Perhaps all is not lost. Don't recall your yield.. but perhaps set aside a pint jar with some used oak in it of the blue distilate and it could turn into something special.

Never know. Cant even guess how many times on HD i've read "It was really awful terrible likker, and i was about to throw it away. But, what the hell, i put it in a jar and hid it in a closet. Came back 2 years later and was some of the best i've had"
Often times, the worst spirit now, can turn into the best spirit later. LIke cranky says about calvados... the shittiest apple cider makes the BEST calvados.
But then i could be terribly wrong. Sorry again pal.. good luck.

[zapata]

Oh it absolutely COULD get better. Even the cloudy thing, plenty of cellulose in wood to grab those cloudy compounds. But knowing exactly how far one can push cuts and exactly how much they will improve with time is IMHO the absolute hardest part of the hobby (and likely the reason so much bad to mediocre booze is made in the world). It's ALWAYS a tough call. More so once doubt starts to take hold.
Otis, another option has occured to me, you could rerun all/most of your cuts with fresh wash, kind of a 2 1/2 x run?

[VLAGAVULVIN]

I am fairly certain it is oil and not some copper reaction. It looks like what you see in mid tails jars of a pot still run, just less cloudy white so you can see the blue of the oil.

Hey Otis, seeing is believing, n'est-ce-pas? Would you please, post a pic of your blue sorrow here?

You had: sufficient acidity + lotta copper inside, --> don't you think you could catch some copper (II) acetate?

bluish suspect

I'm too lazy to translate the guy from this vid: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dQzZX2jYrS8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
(hope, it's quite understandable as is)

[der wo]

Diluting cleans the tails, not the heads. And high ester is about heads. You loose depth and aftertaste, not fruit.

Wait, so does that mean that if we recycle a tight cut of heads (like PugiRum "Rum Oils" in the tails) we'll get higher ester in the hearts?

"a tight cut of heads (like PugiRum "Rum Oils" in the tails)" So you are writing about heads? Or tails? Or both? Sorry I don't understand. Perhaps a language problem?
Anyway,
I mean regardless of using a potstill or a reflux still, during the whole run you always collect the most volatile fraction of the boiler charge. So you will get the fruity flavors (heads) all. Even if you dilute before redistilling or if you distill 100 times. If you don't cut them of course.
But you always make a tails cut, because you will always leave something in the boiler. So every distillation will cut tails but not necessarily heads. That's why a repair run will result in less tails. (And btw I think this is the main reason why a double run without reflux and a single run with partial reflux will always taste different. You can make a similar heads concentration and cut, a similar concentrating of the hearts, but you can't copy the two tails cuts of a double run with the one tails cut of a reflux run.)
Redistilling tails will produce new esters. At least in theory. How many and which ones is hard to know before. They are produced because of their higher abv now compared to the abv of the boiler charge when those tails were distilled. Higher abv -> higher esterification rate.

[ElCubanazo]

Diluting cleans the tails, not the heads. And high ester is about heads. You loose depth and aftertaste, not fruit.

Wait, so does that mean that if we recycle a tight cut of heads (like PugiRum "Rum Oils" in the tails) we'll get higher ester in the hearts?

"a tight cut of heads (like PugiRum "Rum Oils" in the tails)" So you are writing about heads? Or tails? Or both? Sorry I don't understand. Perhaps a language problem?
Anyway,

Apologies that post was completely out of context and unrelated to Otis salvaging this run. It was more a question of how to get a high ester rum in general. What I meant, Der Wo, is that you said "higher ester is about heads". My question was, if higher ester is about heads, could we then recycle the heads in spirit runs (like the PugiRum recipe does with the "rum oils" in the tails) to try to obtain a higher ester final product.

I imagine this has been done by many people, I just never recycle my heads as they go into feints jars to produce neutral later.

[der wo]

My question was, if higher ester is about heads, could we then recycle the heads in spirit runs (like the PugiRum recipe does with the "rum oils" in the tails) to try to obtain a higher ester final product.

I imagine this has been done by many people, I just never recycle my heads as they go into feints jars to produce neutral later.

Heads are a chance. I reuse them always. If it doesn't work, I cut them again. And if the newmake turns out headsy, it will need a bit more airing than normal, that's all.

[distiller_dresden]

Hey Otis, quick question... Do you ever consider your molasses as any part of your water measure? After all it is a lot of liquid and it's not like that liquid part is used up by the yeast, the sugars in it are. I just thought of this as my last rum wash I had an extra gallon and a half after cooking off 5.25 gallons in my 5 gallon still. Should we take that into consideration when purchasing yeasts that say 'for 5 gallons', do you know/see what I'm saying? After all that's still an extra gallon of liquid the yeast has to move about within, so our say '5 gallon mash' is actually 6 gallons if you use a gallon of molasses...

[OtisT]

Hey Otis, quick question... Do you ever consider your molasses as any part of your water measure? After all it is a lot of liquid and it's not like that liquid part is used up by the yeast, the sugars in it are. I just thought of this as my last rum wash I had an extra gallon and a half after cooking off 5.25 gallons in my 5 gallon still. Should we take that into consideration when purchasing yeasts that say 'for 5 gallons', do you know/see what I'm saying? After all that's still an extra gallon of liquid the yeast has to move about within, so our say '5 gallon mash' is actually 6 gallons if you use a gallon of molasses...

Of course. With regard to yeast package directions, they are referring to the total liquid volume of your ferment after all your ingredients are in it. Water, sugar, molasses, grains, etc.

[distiller_dresden]

Huh. I guess it's just me the dummy. Until right this evening I'd never considered the molasses as a gallon of liquid. :looks down: Pfft, "Dumbass." :looks down again: Sigh, "Yeah, not the last time either."

Well, glad I asked you! Now I know, aaand...

[OtisT]

I am fairly certain it is oil and not some copper reaction. It looks like what you see in mid tails jars of a pot still run, just less cloudy white so you can see the blue of the oil.

Hey Otis, seeing is believing, n'est-ce-pas? Would you please, post a pic of your blue sorrow here?

You had: sufficient acidity + lotta copper inside, --> don't you think you could catch some copper (II) acetate?
)

Sorry, I did not take a pic of the bluish tint in my 40% rum before I re-distilled the batch.

You may be correct about the Copper Compound. I don't know how to test/prove but here is an interesting clue: I did a pot distillation of my high wines. I typically run product off of my still through a paper towel to pick up any oils and/or flakes (keeps my jars/funnels/hydrometer, etc. clean) and I almost always see light spotting of small dark flakes on the towel when I am well into tails. This run was no different until the very end, when the particles I began seeing were bright copper green. Just a small amount was deposited, but I have never seen this color before in the dozens of times I have filtered with a towel.

The dark spots on the right/top are what I normally see. The green deposits on the left are new to me, and came out just as the run ended.

Distillate Filter with green deposits

This was the first rum I have processed with compression (reflux w/packing) throughout the entire spirit run. If it was a copper compound then it was likely formed during my long 2nd distillation where I compressed (fractioned) the entire run. That's the only major difference from previous runs.

[distiller_dresden]

Hey Otis, I think Vlaga was replying and responding to my comment, that you had nitrogen in your mash, and you put literal copper in your carboy during the mash. I think that's when you picked up this, I really do. I think you did everything right, and I would just refrain from putting copper into your mash from now on because you put nitrogen in there, it's in your yeast nutrient or tomato paste or whatever you use to feed your yeast. Then it sat under high temps while your ferment cooked off; that had to have made the green deposits, it looks like oxidized copper man.

[Shine0n]

I've too had the little specks come with rum but not the blueish/green you have, this may be way out there but is it possible that some copper oxidation has happened and the oils from the tails have clung to it to pull it out at the end of the run?
Sorry to hear about the bitterness in the spirit, that sucks to work so hard only to have to scratch your head in disbelief.
I hope you find the problem and correct it soon, we work hard and put alot of time in our products and I feel your pain.
Good luck and wishing you the best in finding the solution.
Shine0n

[VLAGAVULVIN]

This run was no different until the very end, when the particles I began seeing were bright copper green. Just a small amount was deposited, but I have never seen this color before

Dear Otis: any kind of sh!t-never-happened may happen for its first time, sooner or later.

Please, check out the pics (at least) from here: https://alcodistillers.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1054" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
(and google-translate it if you wish)

Your copper chops (at the bottom of the pot?) have nuthin to do with your greenish scurf. But it looks like this incrustation was creating for quite a long period of time, like a cave outgrowth, hehe... and it was growing very close to the top outlet of your rig. And finally was swept away from this top. What's it made of, copper? Then you definitely got some copper compound. But the product was also bitter: that's still the secret for me.

I think Vlaga was replying and responding to my comment, that you had nitrogen in your mash, and you put literal copper in your carboy during the mash. I think that's when you picked up this, I really do. I think you did everything right, and I would just refrain from putting copper into your mash from now on because you put nitrogen in there, it's in your yeast nutrient or tomato paste or whatever you use to feed your yeast.

Nitro? What kind of reaction could happen there?..

And Vlaga sounds cool for me as it means 'moisture' in Russian )))

Brgds,
VV

[distiller_dresden]

I was thinking the nitrogen and copper in the 90 plus ferment in the carboy might have oxidized the copper and caused that green stuff, like you see on old copper awnings or whatever; old copper stuff basically. Not a scientist... But I've 'heard' that nitrogen and copper react?

Is it possible as the mash cooked off and got more acidic that the nitrogen formed some nitric acid and that interacted with the copper?
https://sciencing.com/type-reactions-co ... 17832.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

"With the concentrated acid, the solution will first turn green, then greenish-brown, and finally blue once diluted with water...
these complexes lend the solution a blue color...
Sulfuric acid, however, is a strong oxidizing agent. Under the right conditions, it will react with copper to release sulfur dioxide gas."

Excerpts from the article linked...did you use sulfuric in there you were planning on, Otis? Either way, I think you definitely formed nitric acid in the wash based on this...

[VLAGAVULVIN]

There's a great deal of nitrogen in dunder but it's bound within long-chained aminoacids, not simple HNO3, either weak or concentrated.

May the acetic acid be my suspect, as the usual backdoor buddy of the rum processing?

[OtisT]

I've too had the little specks come with rum but not the blueish/green you have, this may be way out there but is it possible that some copper oxidation has happened and the oils from the tails have clung to it to pull it out at the end of the run?

Ya, I have never seen this blue/green before either, but it sure is pretty. It seems logical to me that these colors only came visible by clinging to the oil at the end. This repair run I did was of higher ABV and I ran it dry to the very end (dry of alcohol.) My product was clear until the last jar. Only the last 300 ml were oily/cloudy and the green came with that oil. After 300 ml of the oil, the distillate was clear again and was almost pure water (<5%) when I shut things down.

Normally I see oil mid tails and I still get low ABV clear after the cloud. I assume because I previously compressed and removed much of the tails, there was not much of that lower alcohol to be collected. That cloud I collected at the end was likely what I was tasting in my previous bad cut. It's gone now.

[OtisT]

HER Gen 2 - Repair Run

After making a bad cut on my spirit run I decided to re-run my high wines through the pot still. They were slightly diluted because I had proofed most of the cut down to barrel strength already.

The Wash:
* I removed the first jar (1.5 liters) from the spirit run collection. I had used a lot of feints in the previous run so figured I would not miss the top 9% of highly compressed heads of my collection. My wash included 2.5 liters of heads that did not make the previous cut.
* I removed the last 4 liters of the spirit run collection. Same logic on feints, having plenty of high and low alcohols to spare. Also, I am looking to make something I can drink white so the less bottoms I have to contend with the better. My wash included 2 liters of tails that did not make the previous cut.
* I was left with ~14 liters of high wines to re-process

The Equipment:
* I switched out my element boiler for my old hotplate/boiler pan combo to deal with the small start volume and the expected very small remaining volume.
* I ran 100% pot still, no reflux

The Process:
* I pulled Foreshots again, 150ml over 1 hour then I turn the heat up a bit for a slow run. (Likely unnecessary, but did it anyway to ensure I started slow and did not run this too hot/fast)
* I collected 10.7 liters averaging about 84%

Preliminary Cuts:
* I did a preliminary run through of my cuts after airing the collection for 48 hours. I diluted, smelled and tasted my collection and if I had to make cuts today I would be keeping 4.6 liters of 84% ABV rum (43% of the collection volume).
* It does not seem as Rummy as the last run, but I find that rumminess really comes out after blending all the cuts jars together so I will simply have to be patient a few more days to see how this turns out.

Preliminary Cuts Analysis Attached:

Cuts Analysis HER2Repair.pdf

Preliminary Cuts Analysis for HER2-repair run

(268.18 KiB) Downloaded 81 times

Otis

[Shine0n]

Glad to see you have some nice rum ow to age and sip, although a little lighter I'm quite sure it will top class rum once blended and aged for a little while.

[zapata]

Maybe something useful in the links here:
https://www.bostonapothecary.com/whiskey-verdigris/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[VLAGAVULVIN]

My congratz on repairing it, too

[OtisT]

HER Gen 2 - Final Cuts

So it turned out pretty well I am happy to report and I nailed the cut this time.

I aired everything 5 days before making the cut. Not much evaporation this time of year. After 8 days, some of the 400 ml jars were only down to 350.

I made a tight cut hoping for something I can drink white. Any hint of tails was left out. I took the first fruity part of the Hearts/Heads transition and stopped when I first detected a hint of glue/juicy-fruit. I blended the cut and let that air for another few days.

Note on making cuts: I find my sense of taste more accurate than my nose for making cuts, and on both ends of the cut my taste cut was tighter than my nose cut. On the tails it was a bitter taste that came on before I smelled something objectionable. On the heads I could taste glue before smelling it, though when I tasted it I could then smell it too.

What I have now is something that has a fruity and light molasses rum smell to it and drinks smoothly. The molasses rum smell is a bit sharp, and I am wondering if that is a hint of what some call sugar bite? It's not bad at all. It tastes great too. Does not have a strong alcohol bite to it, even at 40 %. The molasses is more prominent when you taste it and with that I get just a hint of spice. There is no thickness to the mouthfeel (likely due to no tails) while the molasses still lingers a bit in the mouth.

I expect I will be bottling half of this white and I think I will put the other half on oak for a short time. I don't want the oak to be heavy, so I will wait to empty my current rum barrel (HER gen 1) and will put this rum in as that barrel's second charge.

This is not what I started out to make but it has turned out nice none the less. Once this batch has had some time to sit I will do a comparison with my gen 1 white cut.

Otis

[distiller_dresden]

Congrats Otis, I'm glad it worked for you!

So what is your final verdict, in your mind? Do you think it had anything to do with acids and oxidation on the copper in the ferment, or do you think it was something akin to that whisky ambergris, or a combination of both, or something completely different??

The bananas came back in my rums from turbo yeast after oaking, but the rum never got really rich, you can read what I 'did to it' in my rum thread. When my corn walkabout comes to completion I'm looking forward to coming back to rum with all I'm absorbing from you, and der wo, and everyone else.

[The Baker]

Otis T said, 'I will wait to empty my current rum barrel (HER gen 1) and will put this rum in as that barrel's second charge....)

How about making something of a solera of it?

Add maybe a bottleful of new stuff to the barrel. Do it again every couple of weeks until the barrel is full. Then (or later) draw a bottleful from the barrel and replace with the new stuff. And do that every two weeks or whatever. And when you get another barrel....

Geoff

[CatCrap]

Great idea, Geoff. I'll have to do some more research on the Solera method. I understand it, generally.. but would love to take a whack at it myself some day. After all.. that's how the greatest Balsamico Tradizionale is made!

[OtisT]

How about making something of a solera of it?
Geoff

That's worth considering. The barrel is currently full, so I have a little while to think about it. I just pulled a small sample of gen 1 after two months in the barrel. I was pleasantly surprised by what has happened so far, but think it needs a bit more time and I will check again next month. Right now, the sample I pulled has a very light golden color to it. I can detect a strong vanilla, and it is sweeter tasting. I can also lightly smell and taste both toast and oak.

[The Baker]

Great idea, Geoff. I'll have to do some more research on the Solera method. I understand it, generally.. but would love to take a whack at it myself some day. After all.. that's how the greatest Balsamico Tradizionale is made!

Simple.
Put a little of the new into the barrel with the old.
Leave it a while then do it again. Until the barrel is full.
Leave it a while, draw say a bottle off and replace with a bottle of new.
Leave it a while and do it again. And again. And again. And do it again.
Putting just a small amount of new with the barrel of old, the new takes on the characteristics of the old, pretty much.

Traditionally with fortified wine the new was put with the old each year. After the new vintage. But look it up, they had several levels of barrel going, one newer than the next 'lower' and so on.

Geoff

[CatCrap]

Yes exactly what i was remembering... the smaller and smaller barrels.

[The Baker]

The professional fortified wine producers just use standard big barrels, usually.
It is all about putting small amounts (in their case maybe half a barrel but it is repeated several times) into a big lot of older wine in the next barrel.
Look it up on Google ( 'solera' ) they have pictures.

Geoff

[CatCrap]

I more so was thinking of Balsamico Tradizionale. A lot of folks in Italy (maybe not alot persay) will make balsamic in their attics, and have barrels of descending size. That is vinegar, this is likker, so, we are talking apples and oranges (or grapes )