Cane molass sold as fertilizer in Europe

[Paname]

Hi, i'm from Europe too and i'm very interrested by this molasse which is also available in my country (same seller, same product on amazon).
I can buy food grade organic molasse in my country but it's 7 euros per kilo, that's why i'm looking for something cheaper.
Please Birrofilo and Der Wo, let us know if you are happy with this molasse.

[needmorstuff]

on the 1st page Der wo said

"I got it. It's ok. It's relatively clean for blackstrap. Very pleasant taste. No off flavors. Not so bitter like other molasses. Not as intense. Seems easy to make a good Rum with it. But perhaps there are molasses with more interesting flavors. I taste licorice and not much else.
According to the taste, the viscosity and the SG it's a bit thin. Perhaps 1l is 850ml blackstrap and 150ml added water. So you will need a bit more than you think.
All in all it's a very good offer."

[Paname]

Oups, thanks needmorstuff.
Did you already purchase the molasse?

[Birrofilo]

For what I understand, Der Wo tasted the molass "as is", and reports his impression on the molass.
He must still report on the final product

I am a total beginner. I have ordered my column from Austria yesterday. I am in the process of assembling my first still.
I will certainly report here my impression on the product when I begin distilling rum.

[needmorstuff]

I think we have all depleted their stock! I have placed my order but it wont be back in stock until the 2nd.
I would take der wo's "as is" over other peoples entire protocol tbh... he doesn't have to report back anything.. he's a top bloke so I guess he will but I wouldn't necessarily wait for him to do it.. take the plunge what you got to lose.

[der wo]

I will ferment it end of June or July.
This Rum will be very different, not because I use different molasses. I will be able to write a bit more about the yield then, but that's all. The taste of the molasses is good. Also the distillate will be good. But I will change too many parameters for a serious comparision.
This seller seems to be out of stock often. It's more likely he increases the price than it becomes cheaper. If I would need more molasses the next half year, I would order now.

[needmorstuff]

quick question der wo if you have time to advise me?

I have a pot still and also 1.1m of spp filled VM column so I am torn about stillin.. I could run it through the pot 3 times but I see people advocating using a
column.. trouble with my column is it takes wash to 96% with a single pass so I think it's no good for rum. Unless maybe i took half the packing out or something.

[der wo]

If your VM isn't able to produce something like 80% even with full open valve, only higher abv, then you have to cap it and run it like a potstill. Only removing the packing will not solve the problem, because then the abv drops and low abv vapor doesn't take the horizontal path. Most alcohol will endlessy flow back into the boiler.
A 96% Rum will still be rummy because of the heads flavors (except you cut them), but very flat. A pure molasses wash distills into something like the cheap white Rums for cocktails from Bacardi or Cp. Morgan this way.
You choosed small diameters for the VM branch, so you got a still for neutral spirits.

[needmorstuff]

I have a postill head.. is it better to strip it and run a spirit run or two in tgat case?

[der wo]

Yes. Potstill it. Two or three runs. IMO two runs are not refined enough. But I am just start experimenting with triple runs. My normal protocol was potstill stripping and LM spirit run.

[needmorstuff]

figured as much..

fast stripping run
fast spirit run - with/without cuts? (can it even be called a spirit run without cuts)
slow spirit run? obviously make cuts on this

[LWTCS]

Molasses sold as fertilizer in the U.S. has all the sugars removed!

It is impossible to remove all of the sugar from molasses, ask anyone who works in a sugar mill.
Id be very happy to see documented evidence that this can be done ..or hear of the methods used.
I would suggest that if it wont ferment there is another problem other than lack of sugar.

Ash content.
Most modern sucrose extraction can't really get much more below 50%

[der wo]

figured as much..

fast stripping run
middle run without cuts
slow spirit run? obviously make cuts on this

Stripping run down to total 20%abv or less.
Don't ask me where to stop the middle run...
No dilution between the runs. The spirit run charge will be over 40%.

[Saltbush Bill]

Most modern sucrose extraction can't really get much more below 50%

I'm told by the mill workers around here that using the most up to date equipment they can get down to about 46-48%.
If sugar producers could extract more they would , but they cant, its that simple.

[needmorstuff]

figured as much..

fast stripping run
middle run without cuts
slow spirit run? obviously make cuts on this

Stripping run down to total 20%abv or less.
Don't ask me where to stop the middle run...
No dilution between the runs. The spirit run charge will be over 40%.

thanks! as ever I am standing on the shoulders of giants in these parts.

[needmorstuff]

so I have been doing some reading of the tried and true, lots if not all of them add sugar.

For the price of this molasses if i get a 70l wash and don't add sugar and it's 5% once fermented out I would be disappointed as that's going to get me maybe 4-5 litres of finished rum.

But I read that you cant really get an accurate SG as the wash contains unfermentables.

So I am little torn about what to do. I could just run it and see what I get and be dissapointed or add sugar to boost the yield..

I'd rather run it with no sugar but don't want to waste my time and money. on the other hand I want a good product - but I have read some things that allude to people adding sugar for flavour also.

so yes I am quite confused

[needmorstuff]

ok it's just maths...

28kg @ 43% sugar gives a potential of 12kg sugar.. let's call it 10 due to unfermentables gives 70l wash at 8%, going to give me maybe 6l of product at 40%

If I add 8kg of demerara sugar and make 120l of wash, thats 20kg sugar, 120l wash at 9%, going to give me maybe 13-15ll of product at 40% - but as my boiler is 50l it gives me 3 generations of product (running 40l each time +10% dunder on 2nd and 3rd run) so I can add dunder back into the second and third runs.. then I can save the dunder from the last run for the future.. this will give me maybe 13-15litre of finished product to age on oak and I can compare the different generations without and with 2nd and 3rd dunder..

I like the sound of that

[LWTCS]

If you're adding sugar to 43% molasses,,I'd say your dampering back on flavor. Mind you flavor can be good or bad, too much or too little.
By that I mean that blackstrap @ 43% is going to be very,,,heavy. Heavy enough that imo needs to be collected at a relatively high abv if you want to enjoy it as a new born spirit.

What kind of sugar?

[needmorstuff]

Demerara - I read that it is the UK equivalent of turbinado sugar that people advocate the use of. I do want a good deep flavour to it but I also want to make it worth my time and money, however purity and quality of product will always trump money for me.

I am just going off what a few of the tried and true ratios seem to use.. hooks and pugis

https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/webapp/wcs ... -sugar-2kg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[LWTCS]

Ah sure.
Better you to try every possible combination and find out for yourself what's best for you.

[needmorstuff]

yes for sure.. only problem is it's 2 months on oak before I will have an inkling..

[der wo]

Two points:
- Almost every commercial Rum is made from molasses only. The heavy ones and also the very thin ones for mixing. It depends on distilling, what you get.
- Also sugar is not for free of course. Calculate what you safe in comparision to buy a second canister molasses.

[LWTCS]

Two points:
- Almost every commercial Rum is made from molasses only. The heavy ones and also the very thin ones for mixing. It depends on distilling, what you get.
- Also sugar is not for free of course. Calculate what you safe in comparision to buy a second canister molasses.

Panela is gaining traction in the craft space here in the states but most (as a whole) North American rums are just not as good as rums made in the Caribbean and down into South America. I feel like part of that is that gravities are too high for the sake of yield and also everyone seems to want to hurry hurry and rush a very young finished product (even the white) to market before it has had enough time to round out.

Panela is definitely more expensive than molasses for most here in the US. But it is also easier to warehouse in that it takes up less space than a comparable amount of,,,,,brix.

[Bushman]

Larry I use a combination of panela and blackstrap molasses. Some folks feel like just panela makes for a light rum. Since you have been a rum person from way back would like to hear your feelings about rum recipes.

[needmorstuff]

ok what I'm getting from you two experienced chaps is that all molasses is the way to go.

the sugar in the molasses costs me £2.67 per kg
the demerara sugar is £1.25

[LWTCS]

Larry I use a combination of panela and blackstrap molasses. Some folks feel like just panela makes for a light rum. Since you have been a rum person from way back would like to hear your feelings about rum recipes.

Sure. So panela is definitely lighter as none of the sucrose has been extracted.
I have also had the best luck with a mostly panela with a bit of molasses added to insure forward rum notes. In all honesty its mostly about what is available and /or how much could I afford to spend.

I did have a contact at "big sugar" a few years ago and he would save me some 50% blackstrap. IMO was way too harsh on its own accord. Ever put a copper penny in your mouth? Harsh like that.
So I found that a cup or two of that molasses blended with panela makes a very respectable finished product. But I'm starring at a little bit of rum now that I did with 100% food grade molasses and that one was ( only a shot or two remaining) pretty dern good too.

When I was really touching the rum everyday and running every week end,,,my favorite batches really came after aging the rum beer for weeks or months. My goal being to install some funk in the beer and then distill at a high purity to get the twang out. The resulting spirit had lots of that buttery quality that eventually transitioned to more floral and then finally back toward the familiar rum notes that always remind me a having a delightful tiki cocktail.

@needmorestuff, most commercial guys do use the 100% molasses.

[der wo]

BTW needmorestuff,
your linked product, "Demerara" means, that it is white cane sugar with added molasses. It's not raw cane sugar. And also raw cane sugar is normally clarified. Unclarified cane sugar is grey. Clarified is brown. Also "muscovado" or "panela" or "jaggery" doesn't mean that it is not refined. Only that it is not much refined. But perhaps it's possible to find some unrefined product.

[LWTCS]

Yeah true der wo.
Panela should be nothing more than the water has been extracted only. But some of the big sugar operators (no names mentioned please) do pull some sucrose out for what amounts to a lesser product imo.
As I recall their explanation is to create more consistency in color, flavor, and texture.
Traditional panela production is not exactly an exact science. But for me that is the beauty of it.

[needmorstuff]

If you guys were running the molasses in this thread would you just add water? no sugar?

[der wo]

Here are two pictures. Clarified and unclarified:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_sugar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
All raw cane sugar or panela or similar I have ever found to buy looks more like the clarified one. I have never seen grey sugar. Also panela or jaggery is always brown.

On the german wikipedia I find not only the same two pictures, but also more information about clarification:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vollrohrzucker" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Vollrohrzucker (auch: Muscovado oder Mascobado) ist eine unraffinierte Zuckersorte, die aus dem Saft des Zuckerrohrs durch Filtern, Eindicken, Trocknen und Mahlen gewonnen wird. Je nach Klärung ist das Endprodukt grau bis kräftig braun.
Ursprünglich wurde der Saft nicht geklärt, wodurch Mineralien, Vitamine und Aromastoffe im Endprodukt verblieben. Einige Hersteller klären den Zuckersaft mittels der Kalk-Kohlensäure-Reinigung, wonach diese Inhaltsstoffe teilweise entfernt werden.
Short translated:
Raw cane sugar is unrefined, made from sugar cane juice, which gets filtered, thickened, dried and ground. It depends on clarification, if it gets grey or brown.
Originally they didn't clarify the juice, whereby minerals, vitamins and aroma compounds remained in the final product. Some producers clarify the juice by "lime-carbonic acid-cleaning" (wordly translated, I think it means CaO-CO²-cleaning), what removes those things partially.

Here how it works (at least with beet sugar):
http://www.chemie.de/lexikon/Zuckerfabrikation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Dieser „Dünnsaft“ mit circa 14 % Rohzuckergehalt wird mittels der Kalk-Kohlensäure-Reinigung von Nicht-Zuckerstoffen getrennt, gefiltert und durch Verdampfen eingedickt. Dazu wird Kohlendioxid CO2 und Calciumoxid CaO (Gebrannter Kalk) verwendet, welches mit Wasser zu Calciumhydroxid (Gelöschter Kalk, Kalkwasser) reagiert. Das eingeblasene Kohlendioxid reagiert mit den Calciumionen zu Calciumcarbonat (Kalk), das ausfällt und dabei viele Fremdstoffe mitreißt.
The "thin juice" with 14% sugar gets seperated by lime-carbonic acid-cleaning from non-sugar compounds, filtered and thickened by boiling. For this CO² and CaO reacts with water to calcium hydroxide. The blown in CO² reacts with Ca-Ions to calcium carbonate, which falls out and carries away many other substances.