Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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OtisT
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by OtisT »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:14 am I've yet to taste a rum that even remotely reminded me of bananas, for that reason this whole thread bamboozles me..... Maybe I just have weird taste buds. :oops:
Yes to banana smelling rum, but I’ve never tasted banana in a spirit.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Corsaire »

Here's a funk forward one:

http://www.liquormojo.com.au/product/ha ... aican-rum/

SaltyStaves, a while back I asked about pitaya skins after reading about them somewhere. Unfortunately I can't remember where I read about them. You said that the alt yeast that lives on the skin can't handle conditions in a muck pit, but could they be useful in a vinegar ferment?

I'm just thinkin out loud here. Work hasn't left me with a lot of time to do research lately.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

Not too sure. The ester is highly volatile and so I just made sure it was in the retort during the spirit run so that some of it made it into the distillation, but if the acid that creates it can be added earlier and all the conditions are right, then it seems it would be possible.

But you're comparing Apples to Bananas. :ebiggrin:
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Corsaire »

Haha fair point. Must've got my esters mixed up. :mrgreen:
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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Just ordered Hampden Angel is a 14-year-old Eau de Vie de Cidre, matured for eight month in casks that previously held Hampden Estate rum. Described as, "Aromas of vanilla, pineapple, green bananas and mangoes fill the nose. The palate offers notes of strawberries, apples, crystalised orange peel and apricots."Christian Drouin Hampden Angels Eau de Vie de Cidre
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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Easiest approach to banana is through isopentyl acetates presence thru fishers via distilling. Make a high % molasses wash, about 15%, to encourage some methyl alcohols. Prepare a cane vinegar ahead of time or buy some. I have a thread around here about heavy high ester rum process. Then in your cook add about 1-2 tbslp per gal of the vinegar. Two thumps or retorts (per my method) preferred to crank the esters.

Then your barrel should be used bourbon, charred, do a 5% vinegar wash and rinse before fill to age. I have had good results this way, with both banana and red apple esters resulting. Too little banana gets you more pineapple, to me, and very little gets the apple peel tannic feel. Less apple gets more mango or cream pie, and tails inclusion gets that funk.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Corsaire »

Thanks, that will go into the notebook. I'll have to see about getting some hampden flavored calvados as well...
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by zapata »

That calvados sounds awesome. I wish I could find it in a bar and just spring for a single pour!
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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zapata wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:17 pm That calvados sounds awesome. I wish I could find it in a bar and just spring for a single pour!
Yep.
Duly noted.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by bluc »

I have definately tasted banana in rum and smelt it in the airlock also pineapple green apple and others. If the are adding cane vinegar does it need to be active to create esters or could the simply boil it first to neutralize it?
I often think of making a dunder pit behind an airlock and innoculating with specific items for specific flavour profiles rather then winging it with an open top pit..
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by bluc »

Also I remember reading that butyric when boiled will produce pineapple. When i smell puke smell in the wash i will hold in full reflux for 1/2 hour or so depenending on severity and it will create quite lot of fruity flavours. Unfortunately most come over in late heads and I dont include them.
ementaler cheese has a lot of propionic acid is described as picante. Is kinda like vomit or parmessan cheese and may be the culprit..
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by bluc »

The acetic acid does it need to be produced as part of the ferment or does it just need to have acetic acid present before distilling? Add vinegar after fermentation has ended...?
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by bluc »

Does this help?
Dougmatt wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:32 pm Is the angel yeast wa-18? It seems like that is specially designed yeast to complement wheat beer with a banana clove ester creation. Banana is likely from Isoamyl acetate which that yeast supposedly creates as a by product.

https://en.angelyeast.com/blog/distille ... yeast.html
You may have cracked the how to get banana in rum thread...blokes trying to get the ester into rum.. think it may have been dr who...
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by still_stirrin »

bluc wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:14 pm Does this help?
Dougmatt wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:32 pm Is the angel yeast wa-18? It seems like that is specially designed yeast to complement wheat beer with a banana clove ester creation. Banana is likely from Isoamyl acetate which that yeast supposedly creates as a by product.

https://en.angelyeast.com/blog/distille ... yeast.html
You may have cracked the how to get banana in rum thread...blokes trying to get the ester into rum.. think it may have been dr who...
I’m not sure that will work with molasses. German wheat beer yeasts that augment the isoamyl acetate production depend on the proteins common to the wheat germ. Obviously, molasses does not have that. However, rapid fermentations will produce esters, of which the isoamyl in one. So, you may get some of the “desirable” flavors and aromas.

Another ester common to the style is the vanillin acetate, also known as 4-O-acetylvanillin. It belongs to the class of organic compounds known as phenol esters. Vanillin acetate is a sweet, creamy, and heliotropin tasting compound.

The German wheat yeast strains will also produce the spicy, clove-like phenolic flavors. This may or may not be appropriate (or desirable) in your rums, depending on preference and how you serve the spirits. But managing the fermentation temperatures will help you control ester and phenol production.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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Description: Vanillin acetate, also known as 4-O-acetylvanillin, belongs to the class of organic compounds known as phenol esters. These are aromatic compounds containing a benzene ring substituted by a hydroxyl group and an ester group. Vanillin acetate is a sweet, creamy, and heliotropin tasting compound.

https://foodb.ca/compounds/FDB000839
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by bluc »

Ok cool thanks still stirrin and 8ball :thumbup:
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Ben »

bluc wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:36 pm The acetic acid does it need to be produced as part of the ferment or does it just need to have acetic acid present before distilling? Add vinegar after fermentation has ended...?
Just like yeast produce more than alcohol so do acetobacter. Quick look says l-ascorbic acid, dihydroxyacetone, and gluconic acid. I think those are ester producers.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by LordL »

This guy, I wish he started producing videos again! :)



I think I'm going to test this theory of not adding any dap and only add pure Leucine which you can buy as a food supplement.

That would force the yeast to produce isoamyl alcohols.. banana rum!

I'll get back in a couple of months! ;)
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Why would anyone want to add DAP to a Rum wash to begin with?......molasses washes do just fine without.
Still Behind The Bench , does do some informative stuff......he is definitely one of the good YouTube channels.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:03 pm Why would anyone want to add DAP to a Rum wash to begin with?......molasses washes do just fine without.
Let me preface with I dont agree or disagree with either method, and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just curious... Doesnt your recipe call for epsom salt for the same reason?
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Bolverk wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:42 pm and I'm not trying to pick a fight.
No one is trying to pick a fight , it was a simple comment/ Question.
Epsom Salt = Magnesium Sulphate
Yeast need magnesium for healthy ,strong, cell wall growth, I certainly don't see the addition of it changing the flavour profile of the Rum.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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So your problem is with the DAP specifically not the addition of a supplement?
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Straight Molasses , water and yeast will ferment vigorously without any additions if its kept at the right temperature......I choose to add a couple of things to mine as I think it gives a more consistent result.
Hell around here you don't even need to add yeast, leave a bucket of molasses and water outside for a couple of days and very soon it will be fizzing like crazy just from wild yeasts.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by LordL »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:03 pm Why would anyone want to add DAP to a Rum wash to begin with?......molasses washes do just fine without.
Still Behind The Bench , does do some informative stuff......he is definitely one of the good YouTube channels.

I can't make a molasses rum easily I'm afraid. Dark muscovado is what's available in cane sugar for me.
It's as close as I can get. In my hoods we only have beet molasses and that goo doesn't seem to make fine liqueur... :/

Dark muscovado on the other hand, seems to produce a quite mellow light cashasa like spirit. I'm figuring I'd just add fresh boil/ dunder to every new ferment and add feints in the spirit run to accumulate taste for a funky fifth generation rum or something... ;)

And, adding leucine as a nitrogen source instead of boiled yeast or DAP seems to force production towards isoamyl alcohols. I just have to try a couple of ferments of this anyway! :D
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:36 pm Straight Molasses , water and yeast will ferment vigorously without any additions if its kept at the right temperature......I choose to add a couple of things to mine as I think it gives a more consistent result.
Hell around here you don't even need to add yeast, leave a bucket of molasses and water outside for a couple of days and very soon it will be fizzing like crazy just from wild yeasts.
Fair, thanks for the explanation
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Garouda »

I could notice a strong banana flavour in the heads of a molasses/sugar cane natural sugar wash stripping run.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Yummyrum »

Garouda wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:16 am I could notice a strong banana flavour in the heads of a molasses/sugar cane natural sugar wash stripping run.
I’m totally with you there Garouda

It is always a conundrum . How much of the heads to add and keep the Banana or cut them out and loose that flavour . It is in the heads . If you want the fruit , you gotta keep the heads .
Barrels and aging folk .
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by LordL »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:59 am
Garouda wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:16 am I could notice a strong banana flavour in the heads of a molasses/sugar cane natural sugar wash stripping run.
I’m totally with you there Garouda

It is always a conundrum . How much of the heads to add and keep the Banana or cut them out and loose that flavour . It is in the heads . If you want the fruit , you gotta keep the heads .
Barrels and aging folk .
Maybe we want an overproduction of the banana flavour, enough for it to bleed into the hearts on a double potstill.
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