5.2 ph stabilizer to buffer dunder

[zapata]

5.2 ph stabilizer is supposed to be a buffer sold in brewshops. It is supposed to "lock in ph" at exactly 5.2 ph, hence the name. Should be perfect to keep infected dunder from crashing.

Nope.

I took .5 cup of fresh uninfect dunder, ph 4.6. Added the recomended dose of 5.2 and...nothing. Doubled the dose, nothing. Quadrupled the dose, 4.8. Added enough for 4 gallons of mash, finally got to 5.0.

Brew forums are full of accounts of this product not working and explanations of how it cant possibly work for mash ph. But I had it laying around so thought I'd give it a go. At least some of the forum posts led me to believe it might stabilize at 5.8. Nope, its garbage, save your money.

[der wo]

PH stabilizers are mixtures of tasteless strong bases and strong acids. They work only, if there are comparatively not much other acids or bases in the wort/wash/dunder/whatever.
I think such a product works well for mashing AG. But when it ferments, you would need a much higher dosage to keep the pH up. And for dunder even more. BTW most beers have a pH under 5. If the stabilizer would work also while fermentation, it would have bad effects on taste. A not enough acidic beer tastes boring.

[StillerBoy]

Thanks der wo for the info..

It has been the same for me with my experience with the product, and also with oyster shells.. I had better result starting my wash/mash at a Ph of 5.. the Ph within the first 24 hrs, is much more stable, requires less cc to bring up..

Mars

[der wo]

Yes. But with calcium carbonate there is also the slow solubility in only little acidic liquids. This is why I wouldn't compare those two methods of pH control.

I guess pH 5.2 is phosphoric acid + caustic soda. Boiled down until it's dry. Then you have a salt, a combination of different sodium hydrogen phosphates. Which salts exactly, depends on the ratio between acid and base. Or probably they buy for cheap two of those salts, mix it and pack it in small boxes and sell it for 100 times the price.

[zapata]

My understanding is it is made from sodium phosphate, so yeah, caustic soda + phosphoric acid... whatever, it doesn't work.

I have to say I'm not surprised, it never worked for mashing grains either. But I've got the tub, had to try.

[der wo]

But generally this is how it works to keep a pH stable. But for such acidic stuff like dunder or even more with infected dunder you simply need much of such chemicals compared to beer mashing.
The best way would be first to rise the pH of your dunder to 5.0-5.5 with a strong base. Then make a mixture of a strong acid and a strong base with the same pH and add it to the dunder.

[Shine0n]

But generally this is how it works to keep a pH stable. But for such acidic stuff like dunder or even more with infected dunder you simply need much of such chemicals compared to beer mashing.
The best way would be first to rise the pH of your dunder to 5.0-5.5 with a strong base. Then make a mixture of a strong acid and a strong base with the same pH and add it to the dunder.

Very interesting there, I'd thought that but that's where it stayed, in my thoughts.
I'm still yet to use acid for esterification, I don't know why maybe I'm getting good results the way I'm doing it or maybe it's another rabbit hole to follow down into. I'm already nuts deep in the hole I'm in lol

I'll just keep reading this thread in the background somewhere and chime in as necessary if I think I have some knowledge to toss about.

[zapata]

So I have learned 2 things today.

Anecdotally 5.2 works a little bit to prevent ph above 5.8, and does little to nothing to keep it from going more acidic. This has to do with pk values, which I only sorta understand.

A custom buffer can be created using mono and dibasic sodium phosphate at several ph values, within no more than 1 from pH 2.15, 6.86 and 12.32:
https://info.gbiosciences.com/blog/bid/ ... o-it-right" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
And even a calculator:
http://Www.aatbio.com/resources/buffer- ... 5-8-to-7-4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

So it should be possible to make a ph 6ish buffer.

I imagine raising the initial ph of dunder with a reasonable base (say NaOH or calcium hydroxide) and then letting the buffer handle the newly minted carboxylic acids during aging.

The only question is if there is a drawback to the relatively high concentration of sodium or phosphate this would cause? Either for bacteria or yeast for those that include dunder in their ferments. Initial research only indicates phosphate is eaten by yeast. And I have a heard a general, "hand wavey" statement that yeast dont like too much sodium.

As an aside I read 1 forum where someone finally found use for their tub of 5.2 - as a high phosphate plant ferilizer!

[butterpants]

5.2 stabilizer from Five Star is shit and virtually noone brewing uses it. I really love most of their product lineup but 5.2 is junk.

[der wo]

zapata,
NaOH is very effective. It doesn't need much. I would consider it safe for yeasts or bacteria in those amounts. But anyway also I use calcium hydroxide. Less effective (you need more of it), but tasteless, and a bit more calcium does not harm.
And phosphate should be safe also. Yeast nutrient DAP contains much phosphate, much more than nitrogen, which is the reason to use DAP. We use DAP for nitrogen, but in fact we add more than twice the amount phosphate (and a bit uranium BTW. Most sources of phosphate contain much uranium ). Anyway traditionally not phosphoric acid but sulfuric acid is used.

Also without acids it's possible to control the pH of the dunder. Yeast and bacteria will only produce acids, no bases. So you can simply rise the pH at the beginning with calc hydr and then control it every week and perhaps add a bit more. And a pH drop is way less a problem than a pH rise. Low pH will only slow down the bacterias, high pH can cause rotten meat smell.


ShineOn,
zapata wants to control the pH not for esterification but for giving the bacteria a good environment. The use of strong acids for catalysing esterification and for buffering the dunder pH are two different things. Anyway you can do both at the same time by using sulfuric acid.

[Yummyrum]

I've been saying it for a while but when doing Rums with 100% Molasses ( no sugar ) and typically 10% Dunder there is sweet bugger all pH drop from start to finish and absolutely no need to adjust pH .

Molasses contains so much minerals and addition of acids and bases during the extraction of sugar in the refinery that it is like a huge pH clamp and takes a shit load of either acid or base to budge it . Like had been mentioned , buffers are generally only applicable to sugar washes where there is basically water and a pinch of acid AKA the teaspoon if citric acid and possibly the local calcium in the water to balance out .

Molasses and derived from that , Dunder , will have a whole lot of clamp built in that a buffer tablet wont have a shit show in hell of shifting .The Dunder will dominate the pH of the buffer ..

[der wo]

yummyrum,
it depends what you want to make. Of course there are enough buffers in molasses for fermenting a molasses water wash without added sugar without a pH crash. And perhaps you can even ferment pure dunder with added sugar (you may get problems with the high SG, but probably not with the low pH). Because our normal yeasts can easily stand low pH levels. But bacteria are more sensible (this is why many of us acidify mashes or washes before fermentation), at least the bacterias we want in infected dunder. Here the best pH is around 5.5. For reference: My 100% molasses ferments are at pH 5 before fermentation, pH 4 after fermentation (without added buffer) and fresh dunder is at 3.5. A dunder pit at 3.5 will get an infection, but way slower than one at 5.5, and perhaps different bacterias will work. Of course I remember your beautiful dunder pictures with the thick pellicle, and I believe you, that you managed this without any pH treatment. But according to own experience and according to pdfs for example from Arroyo, I know it works better or at least much faster with a higher pH. I had dunders and nothing happened for a week, and then after solving a bit calcium hydroxide it needed only one day to form a pellicle. But perhaps a bit higher temperature would have started it too.
I think zapata wants to infect his dunder. This is why he thinks about pH treatment. If he only wants to use fresh dunder in a Rum wash, he doesn't need to do anything.

[zapata]

Derwo has it.
My last rum I didn't bother with a pre ferment ph check because I know it's fine for yeast. When I pitched some microbes mid fermentation I did check it, and it was low for them at 4.8 or so. Dunder ended up at 4.7 so hardly any drop. A few tablespoons of calcium hydroxide easily brought the dunder up to 5.5 for infection with lacto, butyric and propionic bacteria.

Currently any desired buffering would only be to maintain the dunder pit without monitoring the ph, especially when I get off the rum kick and go back to whisky for a while. I kniw it will survive swings, many of these microbes survive stomach acids fine. So it's a proposed refinement, not a necessity.

At the same time, a buffered wash would make co-fermentation more productive for both bacterial (Arroyo) and yeast (Bryan Davis) produced esters.