Butter Rum

Anything to do with rum

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distiller_dresden
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

Well I know olive oil was selected as it's highest in linoleic acid, which if you had pure linoleic acid, that's what you'd use instead of olive oil, as it's actually adding linoleic acid to the wash is what's doing it. (Extra virgin is the higher percentage OO)

Here it is again since it's coming up 'hot' - http://www.kotmf.com/articles/oliveoil.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

You can do an HD search and members here have tried it as well.

Here's a chart of linoleic acid in various oils/fats:
Salicornia oil 75%
Safflower oil 74.62%
Evening Primrose oil 65-80%
Melon seed oil 70%
Poppyseed oil 70%
Grape seed oil 69.6%
Sunflower oil 65.7%
Prickly Pear seed oil 62.3%
Barbary Fig Seed Oil 65%
Hemp oil 54.3%
Corn oil 59%
Wheat germ oil 55%
Cottonseed oil 54%
Soybean oil 51%
Walnut oil 51%
Sesame oil 45%
Rice bran oil 39%
Argan oil 37%
Pistachio oil 32.7%
Peanut oil 32%
Peach oil 29%
Almonds 24%
Canola oil 21%
Chicken fat 18-23%
Egg yolk 16%
Linseed oil 15%
Lard 10%
Olive oil 10% (3.5 - 21%)
Palm oil 10%
Durio graveolens 4.95%
Cocoa butter 3%
Macadamia oil 2%
Butter 2%
Coconut oil 2%
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hpby98
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by hpby98 »

Running my second batch, which was made with 30% dunder and fancy molasses

After about 1.2 liters, I’ve captured 750ml and am airing it our overnight.

Just to take a quick test of course

I plan on rerunning this batch and the original batch with blackstrap to see the difference a second run makes.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by zapata »

Dresden, I know all about olive oil and have used it myself, it made the homebrew forums many years ago. Then the scuttlebutt became that it was debunked, I seem to remember a famous pro micro brewer who used to do it eventually poopooing it.. Truly researching that to death is the aspect I meant I hadn't researched. I rarely brew beer these days, and eventually decided that aereation (or fake aereation via olive oil) simply is not that important for most washes mostly due to lack of pre boiling, as well as the potential for only moderate oxiygenation to increase esters.

Regardless, in regards to this thread, I dont think anyone who has made a butter bomb has used olive oil, so it seems an easy thing to avoid for now?

Regarding the link you shared, I read it again, and nowhere I saw does it suggest that initial wort oxidation has any effect on diacetyl. All the oxygen comments I read were a pretreatment of yeast prior to pitching not the wort oxygenation itself, or were post pitching comments. Note that in the summary table toward the end initial oxygenation is not mentioned at all.

But I did find this interesting:
The non‐oxidative decarboxylation (ed: of α‐acetolactate) into acetoin can be encouraged by heating under anaerobic conditions and by maintaining a low redox potential in the wort
Perhaps butterification is about acetoin, and not diacetyl after all?
If it hasnt been mentioned, acetoin is super buttery as well, good scents says "sweet carmal creamy green butter dairy milk fatty buttery creamy sour fatty vanilla"
And acetoin can also combine with our favorite rum acids to make things like acetoin acetate "fruity fleshy rummy grape winey" or aetoin butyrate "Creamy mouthfeel with creamy and custard-like notes".

Seems to me high pitch rates, enough oxygen to allow rapid initial growth, high temps, and a rapid fermentation ought to optimize diacetyl and precursers. Butterification as soon as primary fermentation completes to both convert precursers to acetoin, and kill the yeast so it cant reabsorb the diacetyl. At least thats my nerd story, simply following shines recipe worked for me.
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distiller_dresden
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

Shit Zapata you just made me realize something!

Check this:
The α‐acetolactate then spontaneously decarboxylates, either oxidatively or non‐oxidatively, forming either diacetyl or acetoin respectively, and in both cases releasing carbon dioxide. The non‐oxidative decarboxylation into acetoin can be encouraged by heating under anaerobic conditions and by maintaining a low redox potential in the wort
Your point about acetoin aside, the OXIDATIVE DECARBOXYLATION produces diacetyl; this means that for the slow heat up to 135F the wash WITH THE YEAST/trub in it needs to be stirred/agitated/oxygenated to produce as much diacetyl as possible!! This is a huge key! So not only during the heat up but also perhaps during the cool down, stir your pot/wash to oxygenate it because oxidative decaboxylation (heating, basically) produces diacetyl. And YES you're right; this SHOULD change the protocols I thought up, it should be HIGHLY oxygenated for butter. I read that wrong (in reverse actually).

I do however agree that the qualities of acetoin are also preferable; personally I LOVE me some tailsy rum high in acetoin because you get that long finish after you swallow and it has that caramel/creme brulee finish. Check out my own 'reproducing Privateer Queens Share' thread about reproducing such a rum, this rum is made from all tails and tastes just like such.

But here we be about BUTTAH

PROTOCOLS UPDATE:
DO NOT use servomyces!
low nitrogen (not adding "yeast" nutrients, or at least not nitro)
over pitching yeast
oxygenate!
more acidic mash environment (5.0-5.5)
dry active yeast produce more diacetyl (water only hydrate)
high temperature environment (90F ferment)
heat up to 135 as close to end of ferment as possible, and hold for 2 hours then cool (Stir often during heat up)
run wash as close to end of ferment and as soon as possible after two hour heat and cool down

maybe stuff - amino acids, probably LOTS in the 'feed' molasses and even in blackstrap, the unfermentables, but again someone said they got it with high quality molasses, and the guy with ale yeast wasn't even DOING a rum ferment; but I think there are lots of amino acids in grains?
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Shine0n »

I've never had to stir the wash, obviously something's a miss here.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

These aren't "musts" Shine, they're every possible thing that can raise the diacetyl at all through the process from pitch to distillation. It stands to reason you don't have to do all or even most of them, but I'm just trying to establish a list of everything you can possibly do to maximize diacetyl for those of us who aren't getting it yet, like myself, Johnsmyname, of HoosierShine who was religious about following your original recipe and protocol, but he was maybe a day late on heating up and cooking it past the ferment completion.

And this is just stirring for pitching, oxygenation, and then stirring for the heat up, and that stirring during the heating can't hurt because the diacetyl is produced with oxygen present, and heating a wash reduces oxygen.

For his case it's really tough so these tips are there to completely maximize every single thing someone can do and try, because he followed everything down to the brand you used of feed molasses originally...
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Pfretzschner »

Ok, I just finished my second run. This time I started with 10% dunder, fancy molasses, dark brown sugar, and Fleichman's bread yeast. I reduced the amounts by 1/3 from ShineOn's original recipe because my pot is 10 gals and I didn't want to have to run twice. The wash finished in 8 days this time and when I did the buttering preheat yesterday, I noticed I had a little pin leak in a seam of my pot. So I let the wash hold at 135 for 2 hours then let it cool back down to 100 degrees,,, then cranked it back up and ran it. I know I rushed it a bit but I didn't have time to drain everything, fix the pot, then start again. I ended up with 10 pints that were pretty hot, 76% to 61% and only a fair amount of butter. I took the middle 6, and proofed them out to 45% and it's pretty good. It still has that buttery smell when you crack the lid, but it doesn't come across as much in the feel and taste. It's good,,,, but it lacks something.

I put another wash together that was exactly how I made it the first time. I started it with ec1118 yeast, fancy molasses, and Fla. dark brown cane sugar. When the ferment slows way down, I'll shock it with the bread yeast again. Maybe the longer slowed ferment, which was almost 3 weeks the first time, made a difference too. My garage stays at about 90 degrees this time of year so that should be ideal. Also, maybe letting the mash only partially cool after the butter run, affected the outcome more than I thought it would. I really got excited because my first experience making the Buttered Rum was so positive,, so I'm going to continue to try to recreate all my mistakes from the first time and see what happens again. Yesterdays batch of Rum,,, just isn't as good as the last.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Shine0n »

DD, I'm glad you've done the experiments and research because I wasn't. lol

I'm sure there are a few ways to get the "Butter" and I'm all for that, I need to do a little more research myself to understand this whole thing.

What Happened to me was a mistake/malfunction, after reading and thinking is how I came up with what I've posted for this recipe, since I have absolutely no idea of what actually took place and how... my recipe is incomplete imho.

I'll take everything you all do on research and take it into consideration for what happened, I can't explain why I get the same thing time after time tho. It baffles me to no end.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

After Pfretz' post there, and I know from HoosierShine that he too cooled his heat up to just under 100F then ran it, and didn't get a lot or much butter, let's say that we need to cool overnight OR at least cool down completely before we do the distillation run. I wish we knew why, but at least this seems to be evident.

I can say that of my 'protocols' for making butter I KNOW they are getting towards truth because even when I had servomyces in my wash I had some butter in my distillation of my last run, which should have been impossible - given servomyces which main goal besides being super healthy yeast and a clean, crisp finish is to prevent/prohibit diacetyl. Yet I still snagged some little butter from my run. So I know those protocols I came up with are headed in the right direction.

ShineOn - thanks man - I REALLY appreciate it because it has felt at times like there has been a pop-in/pop-out line of folks/old pros coming by to say what I'm saying is counter-intuitive or wrong or false, just for me to go back to the text and show where it isn't and the text supports it. I appreciate zapata popping in and pointing out what he did because he made me realize I made a mistake from a reading error, the damn run-on sentence structure of that scientific paper... But I'm glad he did so we know oxygenation is good. I would still urge folks to add a few drops of olive oil, I do this with every wash for anything since I learned and read about it (unless you have corn oil, which is higher in linoleic acid, what the yeast are using that replaces oxygen in their process). My mashing/fermenting outlook/theory is super happy yeast make the best alcohol, so I do everything I can to make them happy - it's why I started using servomyces (except when looking for butter!), and why I switched to Fermaid K from generic 'yeast nutrient'.

I'm here to help and support this process toward a bulletproofing, because hell man, I WANT to see you get on the tried and true, but even MORE - damnit - I WANT TO TASTE A BUTTERY RUM! Since nobody lives near me, I'm gonna have to make it! I have two gallons of feed molasses in my 'distilling' cabinet with all my other sugars and grains and goodies so I can soon replicate your original recipe in my quest to get this damn butter.

Around the corner, though, this weekend I'm making a maple rum, adjusted recipe from randymarshct's, and monitoring my fermenting coconut sugar mash.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by JohnsMyName »

I did heat up and cool over night protocol and did not get butter. My washes sit for 1-3 weeks after finished due to the fact that I make enough for 2-3 runs and don’t always have the time to run them. Next wash I will try to run right after ferment finishes, maybe 3 days after pitching.

Thanks to Shine, DD, Zap, Der , Hoosh and everyone else for working on this so far.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Shine0n »

If you heat up right at the end of fermentation you could leave it without the chance of the yeast cleaning up behind them selves I would think.
My ferment has been sitting for over 3 weeks now and has a hella infection so there's no butter for this one but it should make a nice funky rum.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Shine0n »

I finally ran the month+ old ferment and it didn't give me butter nor did I try. It did give me some of the funkyness I'd been looking for with infected dunder.

I won't go off topic but so far but this is the most complex rum I've made so far just by being not able to get to it for some time.

Butter it isn't but complex it is, time is a good thing for rum ferment imho
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Shine0n wrote:but complex it is, time is a good thing for rum ferment imho
:thumbup: Mine often sit for two months and more before I get around to distilling them. Time certainly doesn't hurt.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Pfretzschner »

ShineOn, I made another batch only this time I again started with the ec1118 yeast. I planned to use the bread yeast to shock the mash if it quit working but it didn't. Over 12 days I watched the brix drop from 22 to 8. When it stopped dropping I did the preheat at 135 for 2 hours and ran it the next day. I got a very nice, very buttery rum. The butter was again very aromatic from the minute it started to run, and on the palette you can definitely taste and feel it. I don't begin to understand why this works so well for me but it does and I am extremely pleased.

I have another batch started now with fancy molasses, dark brown sugar, raw honey, using bread yeast. I'm going to try a little less sugar and a longer ferment, like my first run. Using your buttering process,,, this not only keeps getting to be more fun,,, the rum keeps getting better. I should have my 5 gal thumper ready to use for this run too,,,, I hope.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Shine0n »

I'm pleased you're pleased, I'm glad someone besides zapata and myself are having good results.
I have 7 gal of moll left and plan a ferment sometime this early week, it's hot as hell here and it should ferment in 3-4 days so maybe next Sunday I'll have one to run too.

I'll post my results here as well, thanks again for sharing your experience on the good side of things :thumbup:
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by StillerBoy »

I started a batch this morning, using the following:

3.8 l feed grade molasses (from TSC)
3 K dark brown sugar
1 tsp epsom salt
40 g baker's yeast (started as per instructions)
25 l volume water

Had a starting brix of 25, and a ph of 4.6, added calcium carbonate to raise it to 5, and pitching temp of 85*..

A question ShineOn.. do you check the ph at the start and during the fermentation..

Will update the results as they become available..

Mars

PS.. Just did a brix conversion.. 25 gives a SG of 1.105.. I find that somewhat high, will reduce the sugar on the next batch..
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

Hey Mars - I think you're okay on gravity, remember molasses, especially feed molasses, has a LOT of non-fermentables that will read even after you're all done and won't taste any sweet at all in there, they will read as gravity.

I think your starting PH is perfect. If you crash and fermentation stops then you can check PH and raise it and pitch some more yeast, but I don't think you should crash, I have started a LOT of rum ferments at 5 and never crashed and never had to check them. You could always get some oyster shells whole and put them in your wash, they are slow dissolving at a low PH so they are self-correcting when it gets too low. But I wouldn't be concerned about it really; I have literally started more than 15 rum ferments between 5-5.2 PH and never crashed/not finished with no problems whatsoever.

I just can't seem to get the damn butter yet. I will get back to trying in a bit; I'm working on a maple syrup rum variant right now, and just worked off a coconut sugar experiment.

Here's something I learned for everyone! Birch will add diacetyl/butter to your liquor when aged in it. So there's a wood to age your butter rums on, if you can find birch. There's a place online black swan cooperage/black swan barrels selling yellow birch aging sticks...
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by StillerBoy »

Thanks DD.. I'm half pound and half litre more than the exact amount based on the original recipe.. didn't feel like making the cuts for that small of an amount..

It is presently fermenting away real good, will see how it go.. once done fermenting, I will do the heat up treatment and store the low wine until I have enough for a spirit run.. the low wine will be added to the last batch after the treatment..

Mars
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Shine0n »

like DD said, ph should be no issue as long as you ferment higher temps.
Little more of this and that won't hurt anything either imo, it's just a bit more fermentables.

I wish you the best on this,
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Pfretzschner »

ShineOn, a quick update. My latest batch, I used 1 gal of fancy molasses and 1 gal of honey, 8 lbs of dark brown sugar and bakers yeast,,, and it took 7 days to ferment. I did the preheat of my latest mash, on Monday, and ran it yesterday. The butter is definitely there, but wasn't quite as dominate as before. It also ran really hot 86% to 61%,,,, but I ended up with 12 pints of nice, buttery rum that was blended out to 45%. After letting them air over night the butter smell seems to be stronger and it's pretty smooth. I used my 5 gal thumper for the first time too, and for a single run, it really came out good. Thanks again for the advise.

I'm in the process of making another mash that uses your original recipe, but I added one gal of dunder and both kinds of yeast, bakers and ec1118. The mash has that very glassy sheen to it and It tastes and smells the same so I dropped in a small sea shell for good measure.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Shine0n »

Sweet!
I'm glad you're having success with this as am I :thumbup:
I have 3 ferments I'll do either tomorrow or Friday because of our work schedule and after that I'll be putting things away for a while while I revamp my still area.

I'll break it out again in October when I do some apple brandy but I'm cutting back on running as much as I already have a helluva cabinet stocked.

I'll always need rum tho;)
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

That's awesome Shine - I have the opposite problem. I still want to get a butter rum run off, but where I was stilling a lot before summer, with the hot temps my partner and dad is much less willing or cooperative to cook when it's 90 in the garage. So I had gifted and sent friends and family most of what I stilled, thought I still have a big triple batch of rum proofed down, my three brandies (which are really fruity, and not as traditional i.e. no sugar, though I didn't add sugar, I did macerate fruits they were made from in them), my coconut sugar distillate. I have a BadMo barrel filled with 2 batches of rum, but it's got long to go. I'm hoping to get one or two more cooks off that I'll have some time to get wood aged in them in the 90F garage and US age them to bring along in September.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by Pfretzschner »

Shine0n wrote:Sweet!
I'm glad you're having success with this as am I :thumbup:
I have 3 ferments I'll do either tomorrow or Friday because of our work schedule and after that I'll be putting things away for a while while I revamp my still area.

I'll break it out again in October when I do some apple brandy but I'm cutting back on running as much as I already have a helluva cabinet stocked.

I'll always need rum tho;)

Yea, I have to slow down a little too because I'm getting quite an inventory,,, but that's not a bad thing. Because I've changed the recipe a little with honey, allspice, and different sugars, they all have their own flavor. I'm going back for one more run of your original recipe before I stop because that run was still the best of all of them.

My Loquat trees are just beginning to bloom so I will be making Brandy in October and November. I'm going to try to butter up one of the brandy runs to see what happens. Even if it's bad,,,, it's good! :thumbup:
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

Just wanted to remind everyone if you have trouble getting the butter a good stand-in helper would be the Black Swan Cooperage's yellow birch sticks, the 5 gallon ones work for up to a gallon of spirits. I tried one out recently and bought a couple more - they are like $3 each from their website with easy PayPal checkout. Lots of other woods there too, but the yellow birch has a lot of diacetyl in it and happily dumps it into your rum or whatever you add the stick too. I buttered up my coconut sugar distillate recently (which came out wonderful btw and is highly recommended, although it's an expensive run requiring at least 12lbs sugar for 5.5 gallons wash to hit about 7.5% final ABV).
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by StillinCanada »

I have mashed in a 80 gal batch of this butter rum. I also run a 15 gal keg still. I will run the first batch in my column setup with two bubble plates. This is to get an idea which profile I want and an experiment to compare against a double thumper setup for the remainder of the runs. Also by doing a plated run first I will have the dunder for the two thumpers.

Recipe used
2 batches of
5 gal Fancy Molasses (Cosby’s)
40 lbs of brown sugar
40 gal water
Adjusted PH to 5.6

The rest is as stated in first post on this thread. I also have a possible opportunity to have this rum judged by a retired distiller from Appleton’s I’m excited.

Mark
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by StillinCanada »

Help and advice needed!

I ran my mash almost to the plan in the above message, last night I pitched my yeast and 12 hours later I have no action! Checked my PH which is at 5.7 and temp is at 84 deg. I’m at a loss why this is not ripping through the c02 bucket! Most know I post videos in a similar fashion as Jessie on Still it. I truly hope this is not taken as a plug for my videos. But the whole process and all measurements are now online, I’m hoping the folks with greater knowledge can view my process and advice to where I went wrong and what steps I can do to remedy my situation.

https://youtu.be/PCe3RsrPu24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

https://youtu.be/eWARUB6j9sE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

These are the two videos I just finished for the Butter Rum recipe and pitching the yeast. All comments are welcome on why the lid is not blowing off the top of this fermenter.

Mark
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by distiller_dresden »

judging by 10 gals molasses, 40lbs sugar, and 40 gal water, you're shooting for a finished ABV of about 10.5% in that wash

I'd give the yeast enough time to get active, 24 hours since that's a relatively high gravity. Also, did you use bakers? Is it possible your yeast wasn't good? And PH and temp sound fine, did you use anything for nutrient? Some do some don't, but I would have used 50g Fermaid or comparable for the 50 gals of liquid. Also you said it was 80 gal, I'm guessing that's the 50 displaced up to 80 from the brown sugar weight maybe?

Otherwise all sounds okay, put your ear to the side of the fermenting container, if possible to hear through it you should/could hear some activity even if you don't see it. You could always repitch yeast, hydrate it first get it going, did you maybe just sprinkle on top the dry yeast? That can lead to a slow start sometimes, especially higher gravity. After 24 hours if you have nothing and are willing to wait that long, I'd repitch. Otherwise repitch now, using at least 7-10g yeast per 5 gallons of wash. So it you're at 80 gallons, use 150-160g yeast.
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Re: Butter Rum

Post by StillinCanada »

Thanks for the advice, I stopped at 30 gal as the specific gravity was lower than expected , my plan was two batches of 40 gal in total. I used safeale be 134 yeast and did a starter with half mash and water. I did not add any nutrients as I thought the molasses would suffice for that. The yeast went crazy in the hydration jar which is why I’m so shocked that it has not exploded in the mash. I will wait another 12 hours for any change and give the yeast a bit of a chance. I do see some bubbles when I remove the lid. But I just expected so much more. I wanted to use this yeast for its flavours. But if I have to re pitch I will fall back to the standard bread yeast.

I’m just confused on the long delay, my birdwatchers went nuts right away!

Mark
Learning and developing the skill of distilling, with everything posted on YouTube at Still in Canada. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY15HC ... 2OvAZu-XlQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Shine0n
Distiller
Posts: 2488
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:00 am
Location: Eastern Virginia

Re: Butter Rum

Post by Shine0n »

Ain't no tellin why it hasn't started, I wouldn't worry tho.

I haven't used that yeast so can't compare, I use a half cup yeast in a 16ish gal ferment and when I did the 45 I did half pound.

Don't worry bout no nutes for a rum wash, there's plenty in the moll. Maybe a big pinch of Epsom salt.

goferm is a great product but wash and h20 work quite well imho, if it showed good signs of being viable and it foamed like mad it should be fine.

I didn't see the amount of yeast used, I over pitch like crazy. The yeast are cannibals and use the dead ones for nutes and bread yeast here is 2lb for 5 bucks.

Good luck and I'll look at the vids soon as the kids are sleep.
B
StillinCanada
Novice
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:18 am

Re: Butter Rum

Post by StillinCanada »

Shine0n wrote:Ain't no tellin why it hasn't started, I wouldn't worry tho.

I haven't used that yeast so can't compare, I use a half cup yeast in a 16ish gal ferment and when I did the 45 I did half pound.

Don't worry bout no nutes for a rum wash, there's plenty in the moll. Maybe a big pinch of Epsom salt.

goferm is a great product but wash and h20 work quite well imho, if it showed good signs of being viable and it foamed like mad it should be fine.

I didn't see the amount of yeast used, I over pitch like crazy. The yeast are cannibals and use the dead ones for nutes and bread yeast here is 2lb for 5 bucks.

Good luck and I'll look at the vids soon as the kids are sleep.
B

Shineon, Thanks , after you have watched the two videos on Butter Rum could you drop a message and let me know if you see any issues? Like I said above, when you see the section where the yeast is climbing out of the jar while filming , I just can’t wrap my head around why it has not kicked in the whole mash! It loved the starter and now almost 24 hours later and not a single bubble in the water filled carboy! I’m hoping you can spot something I did wrong. But at this point I will look at pitching the bread yeast in the morning. I’m just creastfallen that the yeast I chose for a specific flavour addition has failed.

Mark
Learning and developing the skill of distilling, with everything posted on YouTube at Still in Canada. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY15HC ... 2OvAZu-XlQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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