Butter Rum

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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:48 pm

Also if you're still up, pitch the yeast any time! Good luck with this ferment and don't forget to do the heatup right as soon as the ferment finishes. DO NOT let it sit too long once finished.
One thing I'm not sure of is whether or not after the heat up the yeast is completely killed off and won't do more harm than good. So run it soon as it's finished :thumbup:
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Saltbush Bill » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:14 pm

I use four plates when making rum, mollases isn't an easy flavour to loose......your not using as much molasses as I do so that may make a difference
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:22 am

That was my thinking as well salty, plus how much diacetyl would be lost I'm unsure.

Just curious salty, what ABV do you pull from 4 plates and how much dilution do you need?

I run this pretty quick, not stripping speed but still pretty quick and on average mine is 125-130ish once blended for resting.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Hoosier Shine9 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:30 am

Shine0n wrote:Also if you're still up, pitch the yeast any time! Good luck with this ferment and don't forget to do the heatup right as soon as the ferment finishes. DO NOT let it sit too long once finished.
One thing I'm not sure of is whether or not after the heat up the yeast is completely killed off and won't do more harm than good. So run it soon as it's finished :thumbup:


I ended up pitching yeast last night. This morning it is banging away. :clap: Thankfully I drilled the holes out in the airlock.
I am off work Thursday & Friday as well as the weekend so I am hoping it holds off finishing till Thursday or Friday Morning so I can heat & cool on one of the days I am off work. If not I will have to go to work very tired. I get up at 4:00am for work so bed time is 7:30 to 8:00. I normally get home about 5pm. the grandkids make fun of me, my bedtime is before theirs :oops: .

Shine0n wrote:I say yes you can, just go down to 2 plates and run as you would normally do, I think anymore that that you'll get more neutral than rum.
Saltbush Bill wrote:I use four plates when making rum, molasses isn't an easy flavour to loose......your not using as much molasses as I do so that may make a difference


The plates in my flute are fixed so I can't remove them but there are disabling valves on each so I can disable any/all of them. That being said, what plates would you suggest to use? The lower ones, the upper ones or kind of a stagger?
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Saltbush Bill » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:39 am

Shine0n wrote:what ABV do you pull from 4 plates and how much dilution do you need?

Run will usually start at around 92% and get down to around 88% by the end of hearts / on set of tails.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:32 pm

That's high, I like to be able to sip my hearts on the rocks and that's alot of water needed to get to drinking proof.

I guess a flute will concentrate the flavors as well? I'll find out soon as mine is finished although it will only be 3 plates and I'll more than likely run 2 for rums.
Thanks SBB
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby bluedog » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:29 pm

Another option to keep the the butteryness if you dont have time to distill it right when the fermentation finishes is to toss it in a fridge and cool it after raising the temperature. If you keep it cool until you are ready to run it, the yeast will go dormant and not absorb all your diacetlyl.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:22 pm

I heated today, and after two hours then I cooked, it wasn't quite done but it wasn't sweet, so I wanted my best shot at butter, seeing as it had that servo in there. I got a little butter, but not much. Next cook will definitely be without servo and I think with all the tricks I've gotten via the study I can get butter, since I still got it with diacetyl blocking servomyces in my wash.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:41 pm

As my jars have aired I have gotten a bit more butter coming out of them; no where near what I'd hoped/wanted, but they have taken on a butter note. More in the hearts area jars, than anywhere else, which warms my heart. I don't know that it'll be enough after I make cuts, as I'm making generous cuts. I normally get about 60 oz of 120 white from a run. I'll be making generous cuts, a bit into heads and a little bit more into tails, then ultrasonic aging, and ending up with about 80oz of 120 proof white. Once I have that, this batch will be mixed with the existing batch of 'vanilla rum' (molasses and malted red wheat) and then placed into a 6L BadMo barrel that's been soaking up a mixture of:
Zaya (70%), cream sherry(10%), cognac(5%), fruity/spicy rum of my own(5%), Zacapa Solera 23 year(5%), Auchentoshan Three Wood (5%)
For a month in a very hot/humid garage. It has DEFINITELY soaked entirely into the wood, and taken a bit of the tannins from the freshly medium toasted American oak that BadMo has coopered so magnificently together into this bad ass stainless steel, oak-faced barrel.

Once filled, this barrel will be aged at least 8-12 months, and I've toyed with the idea of solera-aging with it. Not sure on that yet. No idea how anything will age in it as it's my first EVER barrel, let alone a BadMo barrel; I typically use large 1 or 2.5 gallon glass 'barrel' jugs and use oak dominoes. I'll cycle the barrel into and out of my garage and my home for weeks at a time or month to month, so it will be hot/humid, then cooler/70F and controlled humidity to pull the liquor back out of the wood. Super excited, hope the bit of butter holds up and adds/is perceptible overall!
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Hoosier Shine9 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:54 pm

I ferment in the basement and with an ambient temperature down there of about 65F it is a touch cool for fermenting I had my fermenter wrapped.
I pitched yeast Saturday Evening about 9pm Temp was about 86F. Sunday Morning the temp was about 92F. I unzipped the wrapping trying to let it cool a little. It stayed right at 92F all day. I left it unzipped overnight and the temp was down to 80F. I zipped it back and is still holding @ 80F.
The wrap I am using is one of the sleeping bag type "snuggies" I found it at the Goodwill Store with a 1/2 off sale, I think I paid $1.50 for it. They fit perfectly on 20 gallon Drums Just have to fold 1/2 inside so they aren't so "tall". and it provides twice the amount of insulation.

The airlock has slowed down considerably but still bubbling fairly quickly.
I have a feeling this is going to finish either overnight tonight or during the day tomorrow. That will be a 48-72 hour ferment.

will update as progress continues.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby ShineonCrazyDiamond » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:15 am

Should have left it fermenting at 92f. Ive successfully fermented over 100f with bakers. I'm afraid you missed a great opportunity for even more high esters. In fact, the temp swings were probably more detrimental. Live and learn.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:19 am

Higher temp would be better for butter too.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:23 am

I've read that both will do
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby JohnsMyName » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:31 am

So what are we thinking is the consensus to isolate this butter. I figure once we get it repeatable for everyone, we can slowly eliminate things to see how it changes the outcome.

- Bakers Yeast
- Low Nitrogen
- No Servomyces
- Minerals (found in molasses anyway)
- Heat up to 135 and hold for an hour or 2 then cool
- Run wash as close to end of ferment and as soon as possible

Thoughts?
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:41 am

All things best done to get BUTTER in your distillate:

DO NOT use servomyces!
low nitrogen (not adding "yeast" nutrients)
over pitching yeast (not even necessarily bakers, someone got it with ale yeast, it really shouldn't need be bakers)
low oxygen/anaerobic environment (olive oil vs oxygenation)
more acidic mash environment (5.0-5.5)
dry active yeast produce more diacetyl (water only hydrate)
high temperature environment (90F ferment)
heat up to 135 as close to end of ferment as possible, and hold for 2 hours then cool (this likely causes the yeast to die and dump any diacetyl they've absorbed)
run wash as close to end of ferment and as soon as possible after two hour heat and cool down (next morning)

maybe stuff - amino acids, probably LOTS in the 'feed' molasses and even in blackstrap, the unfermentables, but again someone said they got it with high quality molasses, and the guy with ale yeast wasn't even DOING a rum ferment; but I think there are lots of amino acids in grains?

This stuff is of course 'testable' but I think it's all on the 'probably/definitely' list for what you want to do to get butter/diacetyl in your wash. I think this should act as a checklist, in fact, for getting it in your rum/or any spirit you want it in.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:57 am

You guys test away :thumbup:
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby MtRainier » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:51 pm

I don’t remember if this has been posted yet.

http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/diacetyl.html

Talks about how AAL gets converted to diacetyl at around the temperatures being discussed here.

I bet all you need is a short ferment (to avoid reabsorption) and a quick heat and hold to make a bunch of diacetyl. And yeast that make the precursor, AAL.

You might try their suggestion of buying some artificial butter flavor from the store to see if it is the same butter flavor you are tasting.

I seem to remember from my brewing classes that it gives some people headaches when drunk in quantity.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:21 pm

Thanks for that link, it's a very interesting read.

I did get to sneak home for the night and the long ferment has got an infection so I'll do the butter on the next one. I also get to come home for the weekend so I'll start another ferment and be able to heat on Friday after next so I should be able to capture it then.

It will be 4 gal molasses
32 lb dB sugar
1 cup bread yeast
30 gal ferment

I'll try and get it right at the end of fermentation so the little buggers can start cleaning up behind them selves.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby hpby98 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:34 pm

5 days later and it’s still fizzing away holding tight at 92f

Will leave it until tomorrow, then crank to 135 and run Friday.

I should have taken measurements but next time



hpby98 wrote:Hey distiller_dresden - thanks for the info

But I just finished setting up my second batch

30% hot water
30% cold water
30% dunder

2 gallons fancy molasses
14lbs brown sugar

I’ll read thru your post more - no ph measurer yet, but it’s on my todo list

Will leave tonight as I found the yeast last time raised the temperature 5-6 degrees, and my pid overshot and it ended up too hot for a a half day.

Will put heater on tomorrow am to keep it at 90f
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:51 pm

Ph should be of no concern when your ferment is fast, slower (cooler) ferments will have more of the drop than anything.
I still add the shells just for gp but in the summer I have no issues.

I guess it could depend on a few other factors but I believe you'll be fine.

I mainly use the lime for my muck pit, I just came into a load of natural marel from an excavation so I'll try and use it on a small pit and see if it's any difference.

Good luck with the run :thumbup:
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Hoosier Shine9 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:16 am

Yesterday Morning I checked my wash before I left for work at 5am and airlock was going very slow.
last night when I got home about 7pm, went to check again. there are still tiny bubbles dancing on the surface of the wash, however the airlock was not active. I stuck a finger in and tasted it is dry.
I had to be up & moving again today at 4am so could not (did not) do a heat & hold for 2 hours last night.
I have a feeling that I will not get the buttering this time, maybe next time. I am hoping to be able to heat tomorrow morning, and run on Friday. I might just run as is tomorrow.
If I follow the same process and timeframe next time I would probably have a 60 to 72 hour ferment. So start on Wednesday evening & be able to heat on Saturday, then run on Sunday.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:21 am

Hoosier I'm sure that the yeast won't immediately eat all the diacetyl as soon as the ferment is done; why don't you do the heat up at your first immediate convenience, just to try and see, and then the cook right after? You may be surprised since you followed everything else ShineOn did in his first original recipe that got the butter to begin with. If you don't get butter then you still got a fine rum on your hands, and if you do then you got butter, man! You really don't have anything to lose, so why be defeatist and assume you're beaten?

Run the protocol Shine, I say. I also think you still have a fine recipe for a rum run in your back pocket that if you follow all the other 'protocols' for getting butter/diacetyl that we've cleaved from literal scientific studies of diacetyl (butter) in mashes that you stand a really good chance for getting butter in that wash too without problem, and it will be a better rum because it's starting out with better ingredients (not feed molasses).
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:25 pm

Does anyone know if the dead yeast can still absorb the diacetyl or once it's Been heated that's the end and can let the wash sit for whatever length of time?
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby MtRainier » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:35 pm

Shine0n wrote:Does anyone know if the dead yeast can still absorb the diacetyl or once it's Been heated that's the end and can let the wash sit for whatever length of time?


Doesn't sound like it. I think once the yeast is dead, the diacetyl stays.

from this paper, no longer available at whitelabs, but available on the Wayback machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170625100 ... e_Line.pdf

Code: Select all
As yeast slow down in fermentation, they enter what is known as the stationary phase. This phase is
where beer undergoes a maturation process to develop the correct balance of flavors. One of the key
elements of maturation is diacetyl reduction. Not only do yeast produce the precursor to diacetyl, they also
consume the diacetyl produced, and enzymaticly reduce it. Yeast reabsorb diacetyl and convert it to
acetoin and subsequently to 2,3-butanediol
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:40 pm

It would seem to me Shine that once you kill them buggers that they ain't doin' sheet, but that's just my take.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby MtRainier » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:37 am

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Re: Butter Rum

Postby zapata » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:09 pm

JohnsMyName wrote:ShineOn, odd question, but your kettle that’s in direct contact with the wash while heating up, is it copper?

Zapata, same question to you?

Others who haven’t gotten it, what about you guys?

Stainless for me. Fermenter is plastic or stainless, butterification vessel is stainless, boiler is stainless, only riser and condenser is copper. Both condensers are copper when I refluxed it, which should also answer the previous flute question, I refluxed the shit out of it and it worked fine, ran it off well into the 90s%. Both in single reflux runs and 1.5x reflux runs.
ETA: Just saw the rig questions above, I used my VM rig on this with a mix of copper and lava packing
Last edited by zapata on Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby zapata » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:23 pm

distiller_dresden wrote:All things best done to get BUTTER in your distillate:

DO NOT use servomyces!
low nitrogen (not adding "yeast" nutrients)
over pitching yeast (not even necessarily bakers, someone got it with ale yeast, it really shouldn't need be bakers)
low oxygen/anaerobic environment (olive oil vs oxygenation)

Im not sure about this for a number of reasons.
1. I've been told the olive oil thing is quackery and has been disproved, havent researched it though.
2. Me and shine dont do it :)
3. We both aereate, but not crazy. Read your links again, they state fast high growth as causing diacetyl, I read this to imply at least some initial oxygen because thats 1 of 2 things that make yeast grow. The importance for anaerobia seems to be later, in our case I suspect during the butterification.
4. Olive oil has small, but not zero amounts of many nutrients, including minerals, vitamins and amino acids, all of which may have various effects

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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:40 pm

Ya hey, olive oil thing's been proven and studied, by White Labs and even members right here on the board, if you HD search.
Also, you only add a few drops, so it's not adding any nutrients whatsoever by adding a few drops.

No nutrients is primarily 'nitrogen', per the study, low-nitrogen wash produces more diacetyl.

An anaerobic environment causes more diacetyl - from the study linked (there's links above/back thread that've been posted twice or more so I don't want to keep posting out of politeness for Shine's thread, RE olive oil and the study about diacetyl); since you're over-pitching the yeast won't need to grow much, but they still will, just because you don't aerate, doesn't mean the wash you just dumped in and stirred even slightly is oxygen-free, it won't be oxygen-rich, but there will be plenty of oxygen for growth and lots of yeast anyhow since you're over-pitching.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby der wo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:53 pm

Perhaps olive oil isn't the best choice, because it doesn't dissolve. Of course all oils or fats don't really dissolve. But I would prefer butter (melted). It works better (I tried both). Or perhaps soap (I didn't try).
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