Salvaging Bad Rum
Moderator: Site Moderator
Salvaging Bad Rum
It’s been a little over a year since my CM reflux rig arrived. My first two efforts were one each of 40 gal rum washes. One was Pinto’s all moly and the other was an all panela wash. Both used bakers yeast with DAP and Vitamin B. After stripping, I ran the batches (separately, not mixing the two) through the fully packed column with added copper and reflux cooling. The result was 6 gal of 65% , on average, from both spirit runs making what I thought were pretty conservative cuts. These went into 1 gal jugs with four 1x1x6” medium toasted French oak sticks and a handful of JD Barrel chips per jug.
It’s been aging exactly a year. I got the three panela jugs out, blended them and then diluted to 45% with distilled water. The color was great, but, the flavor and smell not so good.There is a rum flavor but it’s weak and there is that sharp, burn that resembles the rawness of new made. To check, I diluted a sample from the all moly batch and got the same burn. I readily admit I didn’t know squat about running the rig then. From researching here, my guess is that I ran it too fast and smeared both heads and tails throughout the runs.
My plan is to run all of it again, with hopefully better technique now. The reflux column stripped a lot of flavor and I’d like to add some back. Im thinking of making another 5 gal wash, adding in the diluted product and running in pot mode to hopefully capture some flavor and clean up my previous mistakes.
Another thought was to just add a gallon of moly to the boiler for the redistill similar to adding backseat. I searched and couldn’t find a thread on moly in the boiler. Anybody have any suggestions on salvaging this?
Thanks for your time.
It’s been aging exactly a year. I got the three panela jugs out, blended them and then diluted to 45% with distilled water. The color was great, but, the flavor and smell not so good.There is a rum flavor but it’s weak and there is that sharp, burn that resembles the rawness of new made. To check, I diluted a sample from the all moly batch and got the same burn. I readily admit I didn’t know squat about running the rig then. From researching here, my guess is that I ran it too fast and smeared both heads and tails throughout the runs.
My plan is to run all of it again, with hopefully better technique now. The reflux column stripped a lot of flavor and I’d like to add some back. Im thinking of making another 5 gal wash, adding in the diluted product and running in pot mode to hopefully capture some flavor and clean up my previous mistakes.
Another thought was to just add a gallon of moly to the boiler for the redistill similar to adding backseat. I searched and couldn’t find a thread on moly in the boiler. Anybody have any suggestions on salvaging this?
Thanks for your time.
- still_stirrin
- Master of Distillation
- Posts: 10337
- Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
- Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
DON’T do this! It won’t turn out well. The heavy sugars and oils and solid matter in molasses will scorch in the boiler and ruin what you’re trying to save.GCB3 wrote:Another thought was to just add a gallon of moly to the boiler for the redistill similar to adding backseat. I searched and couldn’t find a thread on moly in the boiler. Anybody have any suggestions on salvaging this?
When you talk of “the burn” in the 1 year old spirit, it says that there are higher alcohols and solvents (heads) in your product. Properly aging in a cask allows these constituents to “breathe” out of the cask. Since you aged only in gallon glass jugs, your product did not breathe. It didn’t allow those solvents to be liberated from the aging rum.
Sure, those constituents contribute to flavor and a lot of what inexperienced hobbiests would think of commercial products signature flavors, namely the “burn”, which when first encountered makes it into the “keep” jar. But, with more conservative cuts you can minimize the characteristic from your final product.
The “good news” is that you can rerun the rum, either through the reflux column or your potstill, and make better cuts this time. If you’re trying to retain more of the rum flavors...those are more noticeable in the latter portions of the run...then by all means, use the potstill. But know that you will lose the colors you’ve gained in the year of aging. But some of the oakiness will sustain through a rerun, which is a little comforting.
I have had rums that I’ve run through the reflux column twice to REDUCE the raw molasses flavors to make it even somewhat palettable. And then, I did a final potstill run with which I made my conservative cuts. The results were worth the effort. Hopefully yours will be too.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Thanks, SS. As soon as I posted this, I saw your comment about running an uncleared wash and I thought, uh-oh, molasses won’t be good in the boiler! I appreciate all of your comments. I “think” I have a better handle on driving my rig now and I can always use the extra practice. I’ll load it back up and see if I can get these batches cleaned up.
So far, I’ve tried to avoid the expense of cask aging, but, that may not be too far down the road for me.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
So far, I’ve tried to avoid the expense of cask aging, but, that may not be too far down the road for me.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
- Saltbush Bill
- Site Mod
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
- Location: Northern NSW Australia
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
I see a few problems here, but I will stick to the oaking side of things.GCB3 wrote:The result was 6 gal of 65% , on average, from both spirit runs making what I thought were pretty conservative cuts. These went into 1 gal jugs with four 1x1x6” medium toasted French oak sticks and a handful of JD Barrel chips per jug.
1 gal =3.785 L. What you have used is way to much oak for that amount of rum. A home toasted stick 1/2inch x 1/2 inch x 6 inch per L is enough. In short you have used double the amount needed. That is without taking into consideration the " handful of JD Barrel chips per jug." that you decided to add to the mix.
Why would you add JD chips to Rum ? Are you trying to make some sort of bastardized Bourbon / Rum thing ?
Bad cuts and using a packed column still to try and make Rum probably added to your woes.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
It's only one year old, just a babe. I've got one lot from poor batch of molly that was nasty for at least two years before it started to come right. It's not too bad now, but I don't expect I'll be taking some off for drinking for at least another couple of years. If I'm in a hurry, I make something that can be drunk as a young white dog, like a narrow cut UJSSM, rather than breaking into my aging product before it's ready.
If aging in glass, leaving 1/3 for headspace allows room for some oxygen. Don't jam the cork in so tight it can't breath. It does mean using more jars, but it's worth it for the results. My wife spotted four demijohns in a charity shop yesterday and I was straight down there to get them.
If you are in a hurry to drink it, it may taste better at 38-40%.
If aging in glass, leaving 1/3 for headspace allows room for some oxygen. Don't jam the cork in so tight it can't breath. It does mean using more jars, but it's worth it for the results. My wife spotted four demijohns in a charity shop yesterday and I was straight down there to get them.
If you are in a hurry to drink it, it may taste better at 38-40%.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Greetings Saltbush. Oh man, do I have “woes”! This is one humbling hobby. The easy answer to your questions is that several months into having my own still a year ago, I didn’t know my “butt” from a hole in the ground as the song goes. Compared to most folks here, I probably still don’t. I now realize that a tall, packed, reflux column is not generally going to make a deep, flavorful rum. But, the run is what it is.
I have to admit that the amount of info here is unbelievable and frankly can be a little overwhelming when you’re starting from almost zero. I “thought” I had read that some rums were aged in used bourbon barrels. I must have been mistaken. The JD chips were intended to provide some char since the sticks were only toasted. I can promise I wasn’t trying to create a new T&T recipe called “GCB3’s Really Crappy Rum”! I will take your advice on the oaking dose.
This hobby is a lot of work, time and effort, but, well worth it. I am absolutely hooked. As a result, I appreciate anyone who takes the time to respond to my posts. Again, Lord knows I can use the help. I would be delighted to hear what other things you picked up on that may help me get better. If you prefer, please feel free to PM me.
Take care.
I have to admit that the amount of info here is unbelievable and frankly can be a little overwhelming when you’re starting from almost zero. I “thought” I had read that some rums were aged in used bourbon barrels. I must have been mistaken. The JD chips were intended to provide some char since the sticks were only toasted. I can promise I wasn’t trying to create a new T&T recipe called “GCB3’s Really Crappy Rum”! I will take your advice on the oaking dose.
This hobby is a lot of work, time and effort, but, well worth it. I am absolutely hooked. As a result, I appreciate anyone who takes the time to respond to my posts. Again, Lord knows I can use the help. I would be delighted to hear what other things you picked up on that may help me get better. If you prefer, please feel free to PM me.
Take care.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Thanks, NZChris. Appreciate the input. As I said above, you read so much when you’re new and inexperienced, that it’s easy to make bad assumptions. I had come to think that a year was generally the “starting point” for oak to start having positive impact. That may be true if some newbie didn’t screw up the run! I’d like to stick with glass aging due to cost. Keeping the corks loose sounds like good advice.
I am not in a hurry to drink what I make and happy to age additional years. Actually, I’m kind of partial to Jameson Black Barrel these days! I’ve been away from my shed for 4 months with a medical issue and was itching to do “something”. I’m still not quite able to make a ferment or run, but, figured I could manage some blending and diluting. Well, you know how that turned out. I will be restarting my AG malted barley efforts once I can get back to it.
Again, thanks for the input.
I am not in a hurry to drink what I make and happy to age additional years. Actually, I’m kind of partial to Jameson Black Barrel these days! I’ve been away from my shed for 4 months with a medical issue and was itching to do “something”. I’m still not quite able to make a ferment or run, but, figured I could manage some blending and diluting. Well, you know how that turned out. I will be restarting my AG malted barley efforts once I can get back to it.
Again, thanks for the input.
- Saltbush Bill
- Site Mod
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
- Location: Northern NSW Australia
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
I know exactly where you are coming from.GCB3 wrote:I have to admit that the amount of info here is unbelievable and frankly can be a little overwhelming when you’re starting from almost zero.
Most of us started in that same place, Your right , to begin with it can be very overwhelming. Just learning the new Distilling / Fermenting lingo / language can keep you busy in the first months.
I really don't know what you can do to improve that lot of Rum. Fishing most of the oak out of it then letting time try to fix it may be one solution.
Letting it breath a bit to let some of the higher alcohols evaporate off might help as well.
-
- Site Donor
- Posts: 723
- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:08 am
- Location: french canada with good vermont neighbors
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
I agreeSaltbush Bill wrote:I know exactly where you are coming from.GCB3 wrote:I have to admit that the amount of info here is unbelievable and frankly can be a little overwhelming when you’re starting from almost zero.
Most of us started in that same place, Your right , to begin with it can be very overwhelming. Just learning the new Distilling / Fermenting lingo / language can keep you busy in the first months.
I really don't know what you can do to improve that lot of Rum. Fishing most of the oak out of it then letting time try to fix it may be one solution.
Letting it breath a bit to let some of the higher alcohols evaporate off might help as well.
Letting it air out sure can do wonder
In a cask there is a certain amount of breathing that can happen
But that can't happen in a glass jug
So the only way is off with the cover
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Thanks, Saltbush. I think the damage is done from the initial spirit run. When I can, I think I’ll run it one more time, really slow and see if I can clean it up. May set aside a few bottles of white rum for the summertime. I think future rums will be pot stilled.
So, are you a glass jug ager, or, do you use casks? I live in a pretty hot and humid climate. I thought the glass jugs would reduce the Angel’s Share. I didn’t take the breathing into effect. Also, what is your oaking standard for rum?
Thanks
So, are you a glass jug ager, or, do you use casks? I live in a pretty hot and humid climate. I thought the glass jugs would reduce the Angel’s Share. I didn’t take the breathing into effect. Also, what is your oaking standard for rum?
Thanks
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
like they say ^^^ give it time. i had a rum that was undrinkable swill. at one year it was maybe even worse. at two years it had a hint of promise but was still not very good. at 3 years to the day it bottled up and made a few gifts that were very well received.
I finally quit drinking for good.
now i drink for evil.
now i drink for evil.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
I wouldn't advise removing the wood as breakdown products from it are necessary for the aging process.
If a rum was seriously over oaked, I would suggest adding some new make to it.
I have deliberately triple oaked rum to the color of Cola in a fast aging reactor to use as an oak essence and two years later it's woody astringency has abated to where it is fine to drink on it's own. All of the wood is still in the jar.
If a rum was seriously over oaked, I would suggest adding some new make to it.
I have deliberately triple oaked rum to the color of Cola in a fast aging reactor to use as an oak essence and two years later it's woody astringency has abated to where it is fine to drink on it's own. All of the wood is still in the jar.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Thanks guys. At this stage, it’s fun to have something you can share with a small, select group of friends and family (and not all family! ). That is what my vodka is doing now. Aging whiskey and rum longer sounds like a good thing to me. My goal is to make some good, aged stuff to enjoy and that I can give the kids in years to come. Hell, you want them to remember you fondly!
- SaltyStaves
- Distiller
- Posts: 1049
- Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:18 pm
- Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
You are not mistaken. A significant proportion of rum is aged in ex-bourbon barrels.GCB3 wrote:I “thought” I had read that some rums were aged in used bourbon barrels. I must have been mistaken.
The problem with JD's chips straight from the home brew store, is that they are not prep'd for our application. A barrel doesn't have to have the outside toasted, so by using the chips 'as is', you are adding a lot of untoasted oak to your rum. I wouldn't use chips myself, but regardless of whether they are chips, chunks, or staves, you should be giving them an additional toast before you use them.
- Saltbush Bill
- Site Mod
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
- Location: Northern NSW Australia
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Ive done both , these days I have a collection of oak barrels that I use, but good rum can still be aged and oaked in glass. You don't have to spend a a fortune on a barrel to make good booze in this hobby.GCB3 wrote:So, are you a glass jug ager, or, do you use casks?
My personal preference is medium toast American oak, I don't like any char in rum ...keep that for bourbons.GCB3 wrote:Also, what is your oaking standard for rum?
Different people like different things .
I disagree strongly with this, using the quantities that you have used, you will have all of the oak in your rum that you will ever need.NZChris wrote:I wouldn't advise removing the wood as breakdown products from it are necessary for the aging process.
Id remove most of it now.
Its been long accepted in this hobby that a small amount of oak over a long time is far superior to the results obtained by adding a heap of oak for a short time.
My own experience give me no reason to doubt that.
At the end of the day its your call ....you have to drink it .....or maybe not drink it.
Last edited by Saltbush Bill on Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Split your rum and use the different aging techniques suggested. The rum I have in my liquor cabinet is usually made up of blends of various rums I have made in the past and is seldom from single ferments, aging techniques, or distilling protocols.
-
- Distiller
- Posts: 1198
- Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:57 pm
- Location: Far northern tropics of Australia.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
A few things.
With all that oak perhaps some of the harshness on your tongue is excess tannin?
I like to rest spirit for a few days at least after diluting from cask strength before drinking any, I have noticed a burn if I try drinking straight after dilution.
How about adding some of the diluted spirit to your next run wash - “dilution is the solution to the pollution”
With all that oak perhaps some of the harshness on your tongue is excess tannin?
I like to rest spirit for a few days at least after diluting from cask strength before drinking any, I have noticed a burn if I try drinking straight after dilution.
How about adding some of the diluted spirit to your next run wash - “dilution is the solution to the pollution”
--
50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time
50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time
- Saltbush Bill
- Site Mod
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
- Location: Northern NSW Australia
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
kimbodious wrote:With all that oak perhaps some of the harshness on your tongue is excess tannin?
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Thanks for all the suggestions. I have two used 1.3 gal charred barrels that need seasoning (swelling) with water. I think I’ll take the 3 gal of cask strength, Molly rum and put it in the barrels and forget it for two more years. I may take the panela 45% rum and bleed it into a few more washes.
As always, I’ve learned a number of things from your responses. Thanks for your time.
As always, I’ve learned a number of things from your responses. Thanks for your time.
-
- Bootlegger
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:11 pm
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
For the record, in a pinch one can age in the glass or steel carboys with oak in them. What I do is put a coffee filter on the top to allow for some air exchange.
Interaction with air and oak is all "aging" is!
Interaction with air and oak is all "aging" is!
-El Cubanazo
¡Viva Cuba Libre!
¡Viva Cuba Libre!
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Thanks, Elcubanazo. If I stick with glass, I’m going to have to do a better job of airing the contents. Do you use the coffee filters for the entire aging period? If, so, how many laters and what do you experience in Angel’s Share each year? I guess I also need to ask your aging proof and climate.
Thanks for the input.
Thanks for the input.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
What were they used for?GCB3 wrote:Thanks for all the suggestions. I have two used 1.3 gal charred barrels that need seasoning (swelling) with water. I think I’ll take the 3 gal of cask strength, Molly rum and put it in the barrels and forget it for two more years. I may take the panela 45% rum and bleed it into a few more washes.
As always, I’ve learned a number of things from your responses. Thanks for your time.
Small barrels have a high ratio of wood to volume compared to 55 gal barrels.
-
- Bootlegger
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:11 pm
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Honestly I use it as a makeshift solera system. Take some in, pull some out on a regular basis. I'm too impatient to let it properly age but for rum I think this works great.GCB3 wrote:Thanks, Elcubanazo. If I stick with glass, I’m going to have to do a better job of airing the contents. Do you use the coffee filters for the entire aging period? If, so, how many laters and what do you experience in Angel’s Share each year? I guess I also need to ask your aging proof and climate.
Thanks for the input.
I'm up North by lake Michigan also.
-El Cubanazo
¡Viva Cuba Libre!
¡Viva Cuba Libre!
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
NZChris, they were new barrels I bought about 2 1/2 yrs ago ( I think I ordered them from barrelsonline) to age my first attempts at making rum with brown sugar and using a friend’s column still. I made enough to fill the two barrels. After 6-8 months the rum still had a raw oak flavor and I was pretty disappointed. I hadn’t spent any time here then and didn’t know what to expect. A good friend used all of it for his son’s wedding reception and all the kids thought it was great!
They’ve been sitting in the garage since. All the bands are loose. I took them out at lunchtime, hammered the bands back tight and have them rehydrating as I type.
They’ve been sitting in the garage since. All the bands are loose. I took them out at lunchtime, hammered the bands back tight and have them rehydrating as I type.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
If it is already over oaked as some of the posters have suggested, I doubt you'll like the results of giving it time in a small barrel.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
That makes sense, Chris. I wish I were experienced enough to know the difference between over oaking and lousy cuts/poor distillation technique. If memory serves, both of these batches had a sharp bite after 48 hours of airing. I attributed it to new make and sugar bite. I assumed a year on oak would “round” those sharp edges
At this point I can’t say if the current bite is over oak or original smearing. If it is over oaked, then I’d be wasting 2 years screwing around with barrels and compounding the problem. If it’s just bad technique/smearing, then there is a chance I can clean it up and get it back on oak in relatively short order. I think I like the odds on the latter option better. Plus it gives me an easy way to get the still fired back up as soon as I’m able.
Does this approach make sense?
At this point I can’t say if the current bite is over oak or original smearing. If it is over oaked, then I’d be wasting 2 years screwing around with barrels and compounding the problem. If it’s just bad technique/smearing, then there is a chance I can clean it up and get it back on oak in relatively short order. I think I like the odds on the latter option better. Plus it gives me an easy way to get the still fired back up as soon as I’m able.
Does this approach make sense?
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Redistillng after a year of oaking will never make sense to me.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
I can understand that. Luckily it maybe a few months before I’m able to get back to it. So, I can let this rest a little and not rush anything. Again, thanks to you and the rest for your insights, experience, and suggestions.
-
- Distiller
- Posts: 1198
- Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:57 pm
- Location: Far northern tropics of Australia.
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
My observations...
high alcohol feels like pins and needles on the tip and front sides of the tongue but it goes away quicky
heads feels very drying on the tongue and mouth puckering and tastes a bit like brass and bananas
excess tannin makes your toungue feel like you’ve burned it on hot pizza even 24 hours later
high alcohol feels like pins and needles on the tip and front sides of the tongue but it goes away quicky
heads feels very drying on the tongue and mouth puckering and tastes a bit like brass and bananas
excess tannin makes your toungue feel like you’ve burned it on hot pizza even 24 hours later
--
50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time
50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time
Re: Salvaging Bad Rum
Kimbodius,
Thanks so much for that comparison. That is a big help to an inexperienced “cutter”.i appreciate it.
Thanks so much for that comparison. That is a big help to an inexperienced “cutter”.i appreciate it.