Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Anything to do with rum

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Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by 8Ball »

So I’ve worked on it all summer and I now have enough rum to fill my 5 gallon Gibbs barrel for its third use. The first fill was 12 months with UJSSM, and the present (2nd) fill has 2 months remaining on a 24 month bourbon. Once I dump the bourbon, I’ll be filling it for a third use with various rums as follows:
- all pure cane syrup rum 1G
- pure cane syrup & fancy molasses rum 2G
viewtopic.php?f=101&t=74503
- all pure cane syrup & all blackstrap molasses rum 1G
- all panela & all feed blackstrap molasses rum 1G
viewtopic.php?f=101&t=76007
Everything is at 65%. Some of it is aging on used oak and pecan, the rest is all white. I’ll top off the barrel with about a quart of 80% rum heads that were first collected in a spirit run, then recycled into a fresh wash stripping run, and collected again in another spirit run. For being heads, they taste pretty good. I plan on aging my rum for 36 months & hope to wind up with a nice, smooth sipping spirit.

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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Sounds like it might turn out well. Seeing the barrel has already done a fair bit of work I agree its probably a good idea to pre oak at least some of it.
I'm not so sure about adding those heads though.....my rum barrels only ever see hearts. Your the captain of that ship though so your choice.....nothing ventured nothing gained. :thumbup:
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by Tummydoc »

I had a "heads forward" barrel thinking it would age and esterify into something special. 6 months in a 5 gallon barrel produced no appreciable change and I redistilled the whole barrel to eliminate heads. Now back in same barrel. I agree I would not ruin your batch by adding heads.
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

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Tummydoc wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:07 pm I had a "heads forward" barrel thinking it would age and esterify into something special. 6 months in a 5 gallon barrel produced no appreciable change and I redistilled the whole barrel to eliminate heads. Now back in same barrel. I agree I would not ruin your batch by adding heads.
I suspect that a mere six months of aging for a rum is a bit soon to be making decisions about it's future.
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by 8Ball »

I’ve learned to appreciate good advice when offered, so I will not include the heads in the barrel.

If I have enough hearts left over, I will blend up a test jar with the same ratio of hearts and heads. That way I’ll have a good idea of how it might have turned out in the barrel.

On a side note, is it a good idea to top off the barrel completely up to the bung hole, or should I leave a little air space? I’m leaning towards filling it all the way since the angels will be sipping for three years.

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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by Tummydoc »

3 years is a long time in a 5 gallon barrel, I lose 20% yearly to angels
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by cayars »

Tummydoc wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:12 pm 3 years is a long time in a 5 gallon barrel, I lose 20% yearly to angels
That's terrible. Usually you might see 5 to 10% loss the first year as the wood absorbs some liquid but then the next few years will be 2 to 5% and then later years of 1 or 2% all depending on climate and part of the globe the barrels reside in. Those are for standard size barrels in "open" warehouses. Barrels in a climate controlled house or warehouse could be far less after the absorption in the first year. Could also be higher in the wrong environment.

Is your barrel in a climate controlled environment with dehumidifiers or ACs or anything like that?
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by Tummydoc »

The numbers you quote are 55 g barrels. On the ADI forum commercial distillers report up to 60% loss in 2 years from a 5 g barrel when used for small batch testing. I am in an arid climate, barrels stored in an uninsulated yard shed.
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by 8Ball »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:42 pm Sounds like it might turn out well. Seeing the barrel has already done a fair bit of work I agree its probably a good idea to pre oak at least some of it.
I'm not so sure about adding those heads though.....my rum barrels only ever see hearts. Your the captain of that ship though so your choice.....nothing ventured nothing gained. :thumbup:
Good call SBB,
Did some reading by Arroyo and in one of his papers on heavy rums he states:

“For instance, it has been sought to manufacture heavy rums by merely changing the method of distillation as used in the manufacture of light rums so more of the so-called "head products" are allowed to pass over into the main distillate or raw commercial rum. This was thought to increase the "non-alcohol number" and add the necessary extra flavor and aroma. These attempts, however, have always failed to produce a first-class, genuine, heavy rum, since what is really accomplished by such procedure is the addition to the main distillate of undesirable congenerics of the alcoholic fermentation, being in fact the very same products that are so very carefully and painstakingly eliminated from the distillate when manufacturing light rums. Obviously, a carelessly distilled light rum is not a first-class, genuine, heavy rum.”

To read the whole paper, here is the link:
https://www.bostonapothecary.com/wp-con ... vyRums.pdf

So, no heads for sure in the barrel. Thanks for the advice.

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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by 8Ball »

Tummydoc wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:12 pm 3 years is a long time in a 5 gallon barrel, I lose 20% yearly to angels
Yes it is and I’m going the distance to try and make the best rum that I can. Found this insight earlier:

http://www.robsrum.com/types-of-rum/
“Other more mature rhums have been aged in oak barrels for years, taking on richer hues and flavors. After three years of maturing, the rhums are labeled rhum vieux (old rum). Some of these exceptional spirits are bottled as vintages, such as wines from France. For example, the Rhum J.M. 1997 vintage spent ten years in oak before being bottled in 2007.”

“Some examples of these types of rum include Clément XO and Cuvee Homere, Darboussier Rhum Vieux 1983, Depaz Blue Cane Amber Rhum, Rhum J.M. Agricole Blanc, La Favorite Rhum Agricole Vieux, Neisson Rhum Réserve Spéciale, St. James Hors d’Age.”

I haven’t experienced the angel share loss you stated. My first fill loss was around 9% and I attributed most of that to the barrel absorbing the spirit. The 2nd fill angel share is still TBD, but will find out in a couple months. Either way, I don’t mind angel share loss if it results in a premium spirit.

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🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by durty_dunderpants »

probably worth at least bearing in mind that there may be slightly different interpretations of what is considered heads and what is hearts, among home distillers. and even more so when comparing to commercial enterprises. though if in doubt i'd probably go cautious with a project that a lot of work has gone into.
i'd age them separate and consider adding after making a small sample with the final barreled spirit.

i had a rum that i went way deeper than usual into heads as i was getting some really "creamy" flavours. i immediately regretted it.
18 months later it's showing real signs of turning into something special and very unlike my other rum. i'll probably check back on it in a year.
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by 8Ball »

durty_dunderpants wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:41 pm probably worth at least bearing in mind that there may be slightly different interpretations of what is considered heads and what is hearts, among home distillers. and even more so when comparing to commercial enterprises. though if in doubt i'd probably go cautious with a project that a lot of work has gone into.
i'd age them separate and consider adding after making a small sample with the final barreled spirit.

i had a rum that i went way deeper than usual into heads as i was getting some really "creamy" flavours. i immediately regretted it.
18 months later it's showing real signs of turning into something special and very unlike my other rum. i'll probably check back on it in a year.
My heart cuts are pretty wide so I have late heads and early tails already in the barrel cut. Will leave it like that but will age some of the heads with the barrel cut in a separate test jar.

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🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by Saltbush Bill »

8Ball wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:27 am “For instance, it has been sought to manufacture heavy rums by merely changing the method of distillation as used in the manufacture of light rums so more of the so-called "head products" are allowed to pass over into the main distillate or raw commercial rum. This was thought to increase the "non-alcohol number" and add the necessary extra flavor and aroma. These attempts, however, have always failed to produce a first-class, genuine, heavy rum, since what is really accomplished by such procedure is the addition to the main distillate of undesirable congenerics of the alcoholic fermentation, being in fact the very same products that are so very carefully and painstakingly eliminated from the distillate when manufacturing light rums. Obviously, a carelessly distilled light rum is not a first-class, genuine, heavy rum.”
Pretty much how Ive looked at it and what I believe works best to.
From my experience only putting the best spirit into a barrel results in something that can be drunk straight as a sipping Rum after 2-3 years, and it should compare favorably with some of the higher quality commercial Rums. If you want something with a bit of fire and roughness to drink with mixers then add more jars from each end of the run to what you age.
You will loose a fair bit to the angels over 3 years in a barrel that size, Ive always kept enough extra new make rum to one side to top the barrel up from time to time, but at the same time always tried to leave a bit of head space as well so that the spirit can "breath" a bit.
Report back with updates before 3 years please :thumbup:
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by cayars »

Tummydoc wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:06 am The numbers you quote are 55 g barrels. On the ADI forum commercial distillers report up to 60% loss in 2 years from a 5 g barrel when used for small batch testing. I am in an arid climate, barrels stored in an uninsulated yard shed.
True, I know bluestar reported something like this: "We have done 5g for 2 years, twice now. about 60% loss as angel's share. This is for a tight grain oak (Minnesota). For similar oak, we don't see anywhere near that much loss in a 15g in 2 years, closer to 30%. YMMV"
Location:Chicagoland & Southwest Michigan

Julius also reported something similar: "Our dry mountain climate does not like small barrels. Maybe a more humid climate or supplemental humidification in storage would be more suitable for small barrels.

We have harvested 15, 15gallon barrels, each was 50%-70% angel share after 30 months. Harvesting 8, 30 gallon barrels saw 35%-55% angel share at 36 months. We are in a very dry climate. YMMV

We have had great luck with the Gibbs Brothers 3 gallon barrels. ~10% angel share annually"


I'm not sure I'd agree with their "angel's share" calculations. It would seem to me they are including wood absorption as "angel's share" but that is something different. Smaller barrels I believe will have more wood per fluid ounce or liter (any measurement) than 53g barrels. That will lead to more wood absorbing the spirit vs evaporation.

At the end of the day if half you product is gone in 2 or 3 years that is not good! But what I'd have loved to have known after the fact is how the barrels performed for the 2nd and 3rd fills. With all that spirit being absorbed into the wood it could be "magic" for another product that gets aged in the barrel. Think something like a scotch single malt type spirit or even a nice rum. I'd love to have known what the angel's share is for the 2nd barrel fill.

There are other distilleries using quarter casts of 15 gallons doing really wonderful stuff. Granted that's 3 times bigger or roughly 1/3 the size (slightly less) of a standard whiskey barrel but seems to be the smallest barrels you see really good results with (from what I've seen).
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by cayars »

Something I've wondered is what would happen if you wrapped part of the barrel in plastic?
Would that stop part of the angel's share and bring it more inline with the bigger barrels?
This would/could be similar to using a wood sealer on parts of the barrels but with no chance of any toxic chemicals getting leached into the product.

Anyone ever read anything like this on any size barrel?

Kind of curious
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

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cayars wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:23 pm There are other distilleries using quarter casts of 15 gallons doing really wonderful stuff. Granted that's 3 times bigger or roughly 1/3 the size (slightly less) of a standard whiskey barrel but seems to be the smallest barrels you see really good results with (from what I've seen).
Should just finish filling my 15 gallon barrel with this last batch of rum I made cuts on tonight. Planning to give it a year before getting into it. Should last me several years at that volume. This is 1 and done flute still rum on 2-4 plates, all panela, much with very funky dunder and cuts somewhere between real tight and real wide.

Prior to this, I had 5 gallons of pot stilled rum in that barrel for 1-2 years with a mixture of molasses and panela rum. That was excellent to my taste. I'll be very interested to see if the flute can come close to that.

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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by cayars »

Nice,

I'm still trying to get ahead on stock but seems like the more I make the more that gets drank. :(
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by The Baker »

Or if you stored the casks in a sealed room with controlled atmosphere...

And maybe introduced the angel's air into the condenser while distilling?

Dunno but there is a great deal of good stuff that disappears...

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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by 8Ball »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:47 pm You will loose a fair bit to the angels over 3 years in a barrel that size, Ive always kept enough extra new make rum to one side to top the barrel up from time to time, but at the same time always tried to leave a bit of head space as well so that the spirit can "breath" a bit.
Report back with updates before 3 years please :thumbup:
I guess you wind up with a full barrel that way, but does it minimize angel share loss and don’t you lose the flavor profile developed by aging when you top off with new make? Leaving some head space for breathing is a good call.

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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

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cayars wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:22 pm
Tummydoc wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:12 pm 3 years is a long time in a 5 gallon barrel, I lose 20% yearly to angels
That's terrible. Usually you might see 5 to 10% loss the first year as the wood absorbs some liquid but then the next few years will be 2 to 5% and then later years of 1 or 2% all depending on climate and part of the globe the barrels reside in. Those are for standard size barrels in "open" warehouses. Barrels in a climate controlled house or warehouse could be far less after the absorption in the first year. Could also be higher in the wrong environment.

Is your barrel in a climate controlled environment with dehumidifiers or ACs or anything like that?
FWIW, I’m in a very hot, humid coastal area. My barrel sits on a stand on a concrete slab inside a well ventilated storage box that is underneath an open sided shelter. The bottom of the barrel is only about an inch off the slab. Rain blows in on the slab all the time. I had about a 9% volume loss on a first fill 5G Gibbs after 12 months. I also had an INCREASE in percent abv from 62.5% to 64.0%. Will find out what the results are on a second fill & 24 month aging soon.

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Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by pope »

I'm in a dry climate and though my keg is in a well-insulated space it does see some seasonal fluctuation (maybe ~50 to ~90 degree range), but that dryness drives up my barrel abv. I still loose overall volume but more water than alcohol. I can't help thinking I should try and tip that abv down 1% or so every couple months to replicate the kind of aging that occurs in a more Scottish or Kentuckian climate.
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

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8Ball wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:51 am
Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:47 pm You will loose a fair bit to the angels over 3 years in a barrel that size, Ive always kept enough extra new make rum to one side to top the barrel up from time to time, but at the same time always tried to leave a bit of head space as well so that the spirit can "breath" a bit.
Report back with updates before 3 years please :thumbup:
I guess you wind up with a full barrel that way, but does it minimize angel share loss and don’t you lose the flavor profile developed by aging when you top off with new make? Leaving some head space for breathing is a good call.

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On the other hand look up the Solera system traditionally used for aging fortified wine (and maybe other wines and spirits); adding a little new to a lot of old from time to time does, I think, freshen slightly the old but, mainly, the small quantity of new takes on the characteristics of the old.
Anyway look it up, not just the how the system is set up but also how it affects aging.
They do this for a reason!

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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by OtisT »

The Baker wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:41 pm They do this for a reason!
If I only owned one barrel (or one barrel per style of spirit) and I made spirits in such small volumes that can’t easily fill the barrel I own, I’m sure this would be a method I’d consider. I’m not bad mouthing the method, nothing wrong with it. I can see how it is practical for some.

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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by Saltbush Bill »

As others have stated above , your not really adding so much new make at any one time that it will make a huge difference. If you do a top up every month or so you wont be adding very much at all.
99% of what is in the barrel will already have a fair bit of age on it once it gets past the first year.
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by serafina »

Solera aging is used for some commercial rums and they are very nice.
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

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serafina wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:23 pm Solera aging is used for some commercial rums and they are very nice.
Solera is how I age all of my rum it goes through a series of 5 barrels before I take my drinking stock from the last of the 5.
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:16 pm As others have stated above , your not really adding so much new make at any one time that it will make a huge difference. If you do a top up every month or so you wont be adding very much at all.
99% of what is in the barrel will already have a fair bit of age on it once it gets past the first year.
Another nugget to put into the knowledge chest. I was under the impression that the “top off” would be only a couple times and would involve a half gallon or so each time. Thanks for clarifying. It is details such as this that makes the difference between making hooch and making a spirit you can be proud of. Hopefully, others who read this thread will gain the same insight.

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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

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pope wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:13 am I'm in a dry climate and though my keg is in a well-insulated space it does see some seasonal fluctuation (maybe ~50 to ~90 degree range), but that dryness drives up my barrel abv. I still loose overall volume but more water than alcohol.
I'm not in a dry climate, but my barrels live in a rather try basement, and I too find that the ABV rises while the volume drops. Was slowly drinking down 5 gallons stored in a 15 gallon barrel, so lots of surface area for water/water vapor to escape the barrel relative to the volume of liquid. I'm sure I lost some ethanol too, but just more water than ethanol. The rum was very nice 8)

Have been intrigued by the solara system for some time. Do you have any posts on your method Saltbush? Barrel types, sizes, durations between transfers. And how do you transfer it? Every time you have new make? When you have enough to fill barrel #1? Do you do a gravity cascade system, or do you have to drain and then fill?
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by 8Ball »

The Baker wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:41 pm ... the small quantity of new takes on the characteristics of the old ... They do this for a reason!

Geoff
Yet another nugget for the knowledge chest. Will re-visit the Solera process.
Thanks.
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🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: Getting Ready to Fill the Barrel with Rum

Post by cayars »

8Ball wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:42 pm
The Baker wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:41 pm ... the small quantity of new takes on the characteristics of the old ... They do this for a reason!

Geoff
Yet another nugget for the knowledge chest. Will re-visit the Solera process.
Thanks.
🎱
While the Solera system is mainly used with barrels there is nothing stopping you from using this same technique with gallon jugs/jars with wood inside them or a combination of SS, glass and barrels.

You can even use some commercial spirits mixed in with your new make as well. Some Wild Turkey 101 for whiskey, your favorite Rum, etc. It helps you get a head start on the taste profile as it develops over time as well as helps you with the ability to grab a dram, now and then as well with better taste. :)
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