Yield

All styles of whiskey. This is for all-grain mashes.

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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:06 pm

Strangest thing! Running back to back runs, I didn’t swap anything into my thumper. Just the tails from the last run that remained. Doesn’t seem like fores coming out, almost like heads right from the start. But I pulled 150 mL out anyway, since it’s a 5 gallon run. I’m gonna set them aside and do some experiments…
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:11 pm

The SG of my sugar head was 1.064 to start, .99 at the end. You think I’d get more than 120 P out of the first jar… Oh well, no worries. It’s all going back into the wash for the next one anyway. UJSSM!
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:17 am

Never been so happy! The 1st gen run went great, gave me nearly 2 gal of product to feed my 2nd gen wash. I used 1.5 gal of backset, for each new 5 gal 2nd fermentation, along with 7# more sugar, and about 3# (didn't weigh, I was matching the volume I was replacing) of cracked corn. OG on both buckets: 1.09.

I was nervous that ferment wouldn't start without adding more yeast, but I crossed my fingers and trusted the process. This morning, both buckets bubbling happily away! It was a great weekend!
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: UJSSM Yield (1st gen UPDATE)

Post by wpkluck » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:57 am

OK - Reality check. Mileage always varies, especially when bush-crafting! Here's what happened to my 1st batch:

As you remember, the plan was to ferment a 5 gallon sugarhead (SG 10%). I figured I'd lose 1 gallon of wash to the corn, so I'd be able to run 4 gallons, at 10%. Based on my history, I figured I'd average 50p on the run (25% ABV), and get about 1.5 gallons. I ran the calculators after my initial assessment, and they gave SG 1.064 to .99 = 9.5%, which would give me about 1.45 gal at 50p, so I felt confident in my estimate.

BEST LAID PLANS - Well, since my goal is to barrel age 5 gallons, this looked to me like it might take 7-10 runs at this rate, somewhere between 15-20 weeks (at my production rate). Shiners have to develop patience, but DAMN! So I decided to double-up (I am The Doubler, by profession!), so I decided to mash-in (if I can use that term loosely) 10 gallons at a time.

So my ACTUALS looked like this:
10 gallons of ferment (I didn't seem to lose anything to the corn, which tells me I probably had more water than I figured), OG 1.064, FG 1.02 (5.7% - awful, but I'm still working on the 'patience' part of this), which gave me 1.3 gallons, at 80p. I'm pretty happy with that. It tasted pretty high with corn, and not too hot. I used a spoon every 20 minutes or so, and kept a log of where the proof started and ended, and my tasting notes. This being my 4th batch, I was surprised that I could very well tell the heads from the hearts (I saved a 1/2 jar, for later generational comparisons), from the tails. ITS ALL GOING INTO THE SECOND GENERATION WASH, which I set up the same day.

SO HERE'S THE PLAN FOR 2G:
10 gallons of ferment. I added 1.5 gallons of backset to each, ~3# new corn (pulling the grey), 7# sugar. SG 1.09 (seemed high, but both 5 gal buckets showed this, at room temp of 70F). They started bubbling about 2-4 hrs in, and yesterday, the SG was 1.02, so I'm thinking it's got a ways to go. If all goes well (meaning I get down to FG .99), that will give me 12.9% alc. I'm going to add the 1G as feints (1.35 gal @ 80p), so my distill should look like 11.35 gallons, at around 16.2% alc. The calculators tell me I should now get 4.3 gallons, if I run it down to 80p average. We'll see.... I'm going to run within the next few days, I'll post the update after.
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:18 pm

2G UPDATE:

OK, I'm finally getting the full picture (or at least a glimpse) at the entire UJSSM process. To age 5-7 gal on oak, it's going to take 50-70 gal of strip, which looks like 75-105 gal of sugarhead. So much for perspective.

Quick recap
  • 1G gave 1.3 gal at 80p.This was all added to the 2G charge.
  • 2G ferment came up at 9%ABV (OG 1.09, FG 1.02). After adding the 1G charge, it looked like FG 1.0, 11.6%ABV.
  • 5 gal pot, 2-5 gal sugarheads (with adding the 1G to the charge, it was around 11.7 gal total)
  • DISTILL 2G: 1st batch gave 188oz, 2nd batch another 109oz. 297oz (2.3 gal) at 112p (right on the money, as predicted by the calculator); Clear as a bell, good corny nose, hot flavor.
  • Could temper to 80p (prep for the spirit run), but I'll wait until closer to where 80p will get to 5gal
On to the 3G ferment
  • Switched to 7 gal buckets, normalized the bill (mixed them together)
  • Didn't add corn this time (it seemed to be building, so I just scraped off the grey, still about 2" at the bottom)
  • Added 7# shug, 2gal backset to each bucket
  • Stir stir stir (electric drill makes this a 30 second activity!), add oyster shell (not needed, but cheap insurance)
  • OG was 1.09, but too high? (This may have contributed to the 2G stalled ferment). Added water to OG 1.07. Stir stir stir.
  • 12 hrs later, yeasties are bubbling away like mad-men!
If I can only run 1 day per week (which is my limitation), it looks like it will take 11 weeks! Cool process. Easy, but not quick. Looks like May before this can go in the bbl, and (of course) 6 months or so before drinkable (yeah, I'll keep some out for a 1 gal bbl for faster aging, and still more for stick aging, and some other for flavoring and general sippin'). :D

This long process is likely why you don't see any videos, or even postings, beyond the 3rd generation (Still It did a 5G video, but no 4G, and nothing since).
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: Yield

Post by Saltbush Bill » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:02 pm

Less time thinking about numbers ,less time typing and more time distilling would fill the barrel quicker.

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Re: Yield

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:08 pm

You outta build a proper hobby still. I can strip 40 gallons in 8 hours, or 53 gallons in a Saturday. A 14 gallon low wine charge in 6 hours. Gives me about 2 gallons to age, most will get 3 gallons I reckon.

Your time, though. I ain't here to tell you how to spend it.
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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:40 pm

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:02 pm
Less time thinking about numbers ,less time typing and more time distilling would fill the barrel quicker.
Hey, I'm all about the numbers. They tell me if I'm improving (along with good tasting enjoyment!).
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:43 pm

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:08 pm
You outta build a proper hobby still. I can strip 40 gallons in 8 hours, or 53 gallons in a Saturday. A 14 gallon low wine charge in 6 hours. Gives me about 2 gallons to age, most will get 3 gallons I reckon.

Your time, though. I ain't here to tell you how to spend it.
I'm rapidly coming to that conclusion. How big is your pot, and what's the setup. Your numbers are impressive. I'm guessing a 20 gallon?
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: Yield

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:39 pm

15.5 gal keg, 5500w. I sit in the couch and watch football in the air conditioning.
"Come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!
You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon.
Shine on you crazy diamond."

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Re: Yield

Post by RC Al » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:57 am

Pot still
200l fermenter, I make enough to get the 135l for 3 strips and leave the grain bed behind (mines around 40l without disturbing the bed)
Not so efficient gas setup 50l keg filled to 45l, 30 min heat up plus 1 hour run = 12l of 35-40% strip, repeat x3
36l ish spirit run take fores n heads at 1.5l/h, jump up to 2-2.5 for hearts, generally done in 10-11 hours
20ish litres of cuts = 10-12l of 73-74% hearts - around 3 of your baby gallons, 3.5 at barrel strength

A plater will save some of that time, but I havent run mine enough to give you an accurate description numbers wise - but as they compress heads the yield should be slightly higher

The generations dont have to all be the same size, to get things going at the start, much smaller is fine as you only need aprox 25% of the next wash to be backset depending on how your ph is going, you could do a few gens in a smaller fermenter and then jump up in size when things do start to get interesting - around G5 or 6. Your first few gens can have the strips combined for one spirit run too

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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:25 am

3G UPDATE:
  • 10 gallons of wash
  • OG: 1.07
  • FG: .99
  • Yield: 2.4 gal @ 100p
INTERESTING OBSERVATIONS (at least, interesting to me!)
  • The calcs gave 10% alc; 10 gal wash = 1 gal alc (I assume at 200p - 2.4 gal @ 100p seems within the margin of error)
  • Usually, the product gets a bit cloudy at the tails. Didn't see that this time, completely clear for the entire run.
  • When dumping the backset (setting aside 3 gal for 4th gen), there was 36oz of clear fluid in the thumper. I almost threw it away, but it had some taste (although watery). It proofed to ZERO, meaning it was at least DISTILLED water (good for proofing down, if nothing else - didn't taste bad, just watery)
The 4th gen mash is bubbling away, although not as 'mad man' as 3G. Checked pH, and it was 3.6. Oyster shells are in there, so I this should work itself out. Hate to add baking soda (don't want to stir again at this point), but might consider it if ferment stalls.

Samples taken from each gen, for taste test this weekend. Total yield is finally enough for a spirit run, which should consume the better part of a day! Interested in your thoughts...
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: Yield

Post by Pikey » Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:45 pm

wpkluck wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:43 pm
. I'm guessing a 20 gallon?
wpkluck wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:45 am
Berserk wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:58 pm
Well, if a fellow engineer put their math out for review, what else can I do but review it?

Sure, I'll venture a guess.
The engineer in me won't allow me to guess. I take the facts I have, and the experiences I've lived, to build an analysis.
I do love dogma ! :lol:

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Re: Yield

Post by Pikey » Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:53 pm

NZChris wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:34 pm
Just because you have a thumper doesn't mean you have to use it. All of my UJSSM has been stripped and spirit run without using a thumper and I only ever had to dilute with water when I was a newbie at making it and was stopping the stripping runs far too early.
You're a patient man @Chris 8) - (Good to see the Wuhan flu has not "got yer" btw)

I love the way you just put those little Gems out there - and leave them to observe & take notice - Or - Not ! 8)

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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:29 am

Pikey wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:45 pm
wpkluck wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:43 pm
. I'm guessing a 20 gallon?
wpkluck wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:45 am
Berserk wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:58 pm
Well, if a fellow engineer put their math out for review, what else can I do but review it?

Sure, I'll venture a guess.
The engineer in me won't allow me to guess. I take the facts I have, and the experiences I've lived, to build an analysis.
I do love dogma ! :lol:
A figure of speech, of course. I don’t like to guess about what I’m doing, so I record a lot of data for later analysis. Often, when dealing with others, you have to assume some things, in effect, guessing about their situation.

It’s certainly easy to take something out of context, to make someone else look ridiculous.
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: Yield *UJSSM SPIRIT RUN UPDATE*

Post by wpkluck » Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:32 am

wpkluck wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:25 am
To see the previous updates, search 2G UPDATE: or 3G UPDATE: (this thread gets long with all the comments!)

Total yield is finally enough for a spirit run, which should consume the better part of a day...
UJSSM SPIRIT RUN UPDATE: (Yay!)

To recap - been running a UJSSM, 3 generations, now with 4.7 gal of stripped product at 106P. (To see how we got there, see 2G, 3G updates.)

THE PLAN: Get 1 gal of 125P to barrel age
  • Proof down to 5 gal @ 80P - DONE
  • Expectation is approx. 3 gal @ 125P (from the online calculator):
    • 30% should be heads
    • 40% s/b hearts, approx 1.2 gal - THIS IS THE TARGET!!
    • 30% s/b tails
Such is the plan. If I've learned anything, it's "you get what you get". All equipment runs differently, and depending on the setup, the same equipment will run a bit differently each time (it's amazing how the setup itself evolves...).

THE RUN:
  • Running 'low & slow', it started at 174P right out of the gate, absolutely clear. Surprisingly, it stayed up there for the first gal, only dropping to 168P. THIS TOOK 4-3/4 HRS, so definitely teaches patience. Hot, I considered this 'heads', to be used later for blending.
  • The next gal ranged 168-158, likely the hearts (totally clear, tasted hot, but pretty good, pretty consistent). This took another 2 hrs.
  • The next 1/2gal ranged 155-122, still tasted good, so also hearts. Still clear.
  • Tails came and went quickly, from 122-80, in 45 min. Tasted watery, a bit cloudy. Shuttin' her down, only about 24oz here. This will be re-run as feints, later.
This took a whopping 9 hrs, setup to tear-down. Wow! (Remember, the ultimate goal is to put another 5gal up for aging - Gen4 mash is ready to go.) Was hoping for 1/2 that time, but the process has to run its course. Yielded 1-1/2 gal of hearts, which now need to be blended and tempered down to bbl strength (~125p).

Your questions and comments are appreciated!

NEXT UP: BLENDING/PREP FOR AGING
(this will certainly be an adventure - never done this before. Could screw it up! Any suggestions? Can only go on taste, will temper first so not so hot...)
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: Yield

Post by Pikey » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:13 pm

wpkluck wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:29 am
to make someone else look ridiculous.
Nope - some "Engineers" - do that themselves without assistance :wink:

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Re: Yield

Post by haggy » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:44 am

wpkluck,

I have some comments and questions on THE RUN described above. Thanks for sharing your data, I can use it to check out my pot/thumper calculator model but need some more information. You can see some results of the pot/thumper model in my March 11 post in your "Is the thumper the difference" thread.

I hope you have answers to the following questions. Correct me if I have misinterpreted your data.

1. The 4.75 hours to the first heads gal seems much longer than runs I have seen in other posts. That is about 0.21 gal/hr, but the next 1 gal was made in 2 hours or 0.5 gal/hr. The rates should be about the same.
From setup to teardown was 9 hours. If we add up the hour increments for each sample we get about 8.5 hours ( 4.75 + 2 + 1? +.75 ), almost at that 9 hour mark.

So, did the 4.75 hours include pot heat up time? What was the pot heat up time until it started boiling over?

I calculate about a 1.5 hour pot heat up time using 800 watts power, and then some time (0.2 hr ?) is used for the thumper heat up. About 800 watts would give your hearts product rate of about 0.5 gal/hr. If these times were subtracted from your 4.75 hour mark, then starting from the pot first boiling over to the 1 gal of heads would be about 3+ hours. Still a long time, but better.

2. What was the time to get to the 0.5 gal hearts sample after the 1 gal hearts?
It should be about 1 hour, maybe a few minutes longer, at about the same rate as the first 1 gal hearts sample.

3. What was the thumper charge? (gal and %ABV) What is the thumper size, its maximum gal? Any insulation used?
What was the fillage (gal ) remaining in the thumper after the run?
These items are important because some of the thumper vapor can be condensed on the thumper walls and fill it up and reduce the output rate.

4. Are you able to measure the kW used? What was it?
I estimated about 800 watts in the hearts region in a preliminary run of my pot/thumper model.

Here are some comments and observations.
The long time to the first gal could be due to very much initial reflux in a cold thumper. If it starts out cold, a lot of vapor from the thumper can be condensed on the walls and top. This reflux would build up the liquid in the thumper. It will also reduce the amount of product vapor boiled over by the thumper. A cold working environment can also increase the heat losses and give more reflux.

The pot is initially at 40% ABV and sends even higher ABV vapor over to the thumper. So the thumper liquid is at a high ABV ( maybe 60%) and this results in the 87% initial heads ABV. The extra refluxing is also why higher heads and hearts ABV results.

The run data after the heads gal are very consistent with most other runs. The ABV just very gradually drops from 87% to 75%, then a little higher drop rate to 60%ABV. Then the ABV drops off fairly fast after 60% ABV.

The thumper initial conditions and, more importantly, the final thumper fillage are key to help explain the run. Hope you have the data on the final thumper fillage.

So, if you can post some answers to these questions, maybe we can figure out what is happening and improve your next run conditions. The effects of kW changes, pot and thumper initial conditions and reflux can be examined using my model.

Regards,
haggy
Last edited by haggy on Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:14 am

haggy wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:44 am
wpkluck,

I have some comments and questions on THE RUN described above. Thanks for sharing your data, I can use it to check out my pot/thumper calculator model but need some more information. You can see some results of the pot/thumper model in my March 11 post in your "Is the thumper the difference" thread.

I hope you have answers to the following questions. Correct me if I have misinterpreted your data.

1. The 4.75 hours to the first heads gal seems much longer than runs I have seen in other posts. That is about 0.21 gal/hr, but the next 1 gal was made in 2 hours or 0.5 gal/hr. The rates should be about the same.
From setup to teardown was 9 hours. If we add up the hour increments for each sample we get about 8.5 hours ( 4.75 + 2 + 1? +.75 ), almost at that 9 hour mark.
YES, it included heat up time
So, did the 4.75 hours include pot heat up time? What was the pot heat up time until it started boiling over?

I calculate about a 1.5 hour pot heat up time using 800 watts power, and then some time (0.2 hr ?) is used for the thumper heat up. About 800 watts would give your hearts product rate of about 0.5 gal/hr. If these times were subtracted from your 4.75 hour mark, then starting from the pot first boiling over to the 1 gal of heads would be about 3+ hours. Still a long time, but better.

2. What was the time to get to the 0.5 gal hearts sample after the 1 gal hearts?
It should be about 1 hour, maybe a few minutes longer, at about the same rate as the first 1 gal hearts sample.PROBABLY an hour or so. I was messing with the temp a bit, trying to dial it in a bit.

3. What was the thumper charge? (gal and %ABV) What is the thumper size, its maximum gal? Any insulation used?
What was the fillage (gal ) remaining in the thumper after the run? GOOD QUESTION. I used a 70p jar from the 3rd generation. The 1 gal thumper generally fills to another 3/4 capacity over the run.
These items are important because some of the thumper vapor can be condensed on the thumper walls and fill it up and reduce the output rate.

4. Are you able to measure the kW used? What was it?
I estimated about 800 watts in the hearts region in a preliminary run of my pot/thumper model.I use propane.

Here are some comments and observations.
The long time to the first gal could be due to very much initial reflux in a cold thumper. If it starts out cold, a lot of vapor from the thumper can be condensed on the walls and top. This reflux would build up the liquid in the thumper. It will also reduce the amount of product vapor boiled over by the thumper. A cold working environment can also increase the heat losses and give more reflux.

The pot is initially at 40% ABV and sends even higher ABV vapor over to the thumper. So the thumper liquid is at a high ABV ( maybe 60%) and this results in the 87% initial heads ABV. The extra refluxing is also why higher heads and hearts ABV results.

The run data after the heads gal are very consistent with most other runs. The ABV just very gradually drops from 87% to 75%, then a little higher drop rate to 60%ABV. Then the ABV drops off fairly fast after 60% ABV.

The thumper initial conditions and, more importantly, the final thumper fillage are key to help explain the run. Hope you have the data on the final thumper fillage.

So, if you can post some answers to these questions, maybe we can figure out what is happening and improve your next run conditions. I think your run time can be reduced somewhat without smearing and harming the final product mix. The effects of kW changes, pot and thumper initial conditions and reflux can be examined using my model.

Regards,
haggy
Thanks, haggy, for the thoughtful response. Not everyone show patience in this forum, and many are quite snarky (yeah, I’m sure that comment alone will draw in those)

I’m pretty sure now I was running a bit slow, and this was my first spirit run using a parrot (mistake). These contributed to smearing the heads. Rookie mistake. I’m glad I did this now, and not while working toward my 5 gallon barrel fill!
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:52 am

BLENDING/PREP FOR AGING

This is a tough one. 6 months in, 10 batches, lots of drinkable hooch. But not great. I’m learning a lot, especially from those who’ve reached out with thoughtful responses.

UJSSM takes a long time. Weeks, if not months. If I’m going to age something, it needs to be pretty darn good going in.

I’ve come to the conclusion that the spirit run didn’t give me good enough product. I smeared the heads, and blended incorrectly. Hard for anyone to admit, for sure.

Fortunately, it can be rerun. I think I went a bit too slow, and focused on the parrot, instead of flavors. I think I have a much better understanding of keeping the heads out of the equation. Rerun them with the batch, but be much more discriminating about them. Hearts only going in to aging.

Live and learn! I’ll post the update soon.
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: Yield

Post by haggy » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:05 pm

Caution:

I have done some preliminary calculations of your setup with my pot/thumper model. I see that the thumper liquid can build up to just over 1 gal using your input data set. I need to check this out further. Your thumper is 1 gal so you could be in danger of puking.

It looks like this did not happen in THE RUN but the thumper at the end of the run was 3/4 full. Maybe the power was lower early on ( as seen by the long time to the first gal ) and did not send as much vapor to the thumper so it did not get over 1 gal. Or maybe the thumper can hold a little more than 1 gal.

Be aware that a higher thumper fillage can come early in the run ( heads and early hearts ). This is when the maximum vapor rate from the pot goes to the thumper and the thumper could be refluxing and not vaporizing enough to keep it from filling up. So we do not really know the actual maximum fill reached.

I found a run experience very similar to yours. Usge has posted run data on a 5 gal pot setup like yours. BUT HE USED A 2 GAL THUMPER. The following is a post and data from Usge for a 5 gal, 40% pot run, with water in the thumper.

Re: How to determine thumper size?
Post by Usge » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:00 pm
Just to kick this off...here's my old data from 2 thump runs: 8 gal pot/5gal charge, 2 gal thump keg:

And here's a run of 5 gal feints watered to 40% with water in the thumper:
250ml fores
1 - pint 84%
2 - pint 83%
3 - pint 83%
4 - pint 83%
5 - pint 83%
6 - pint 83%
7 - pint 83%
8 - pint 83%
9 - pint 83%
10- pint 82%
11- pint 82%
12- pint 81%
13- pint 80%
14- pint 78%
15- pint 75%
16- pint 72%
Flushed rest out from there down to 40%.


>>>> In a subsequent post, he gave what I think are the run times for this 5 gal 40% pot run.

Re: How to determine thumper size?
Post by Usge » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:58 pm
Lets compare that with this run...which was on 4.5 gals of "low-wines" run on a potstill . (the red marks are the jars I kept for the tentative cut).
image.png
>>>>> This run could have taken six to seven hours if the above chart applies to the 40% run. He said potstill but I think it was also with the 2 gal thumper. The high 40% pot and water in the thumper would give the 85% initial product ABV. My previous simulation given in "Hail the Mighty Thumper" for this run is next. Note the thumper fillage got up to 1.73 gal.

image.png

>>>> Here is a post by Usge on run times.

Re: Length of time to distill
Post by Usge » Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:28 pm

On my rigs...strip runs take about 3 to 4 hours (depending on heat up time). Spirit runs can take anywhere from 6 to 9 hours start to finish depending on which head I use. I'm using stovetop gas...5 gal pot (that actually holds about 7 gals). So, I'm limited to what the old stovetop burner can provide in regards to heat. Although it doesn't matter much for a strip run how fast you run, so long as your condenser can handle it and knock down all the vapor, for a spirit run on 5 gals, I would think 3 hours start to finish is a little fast. Figure 5gals of low-wines/feints at combined 40%, you've got 18927ml x .40= 7570ml of potential 100% alc to collect. Given you aren't going to be collecting it at that high abv..and adjusting volume for the lower abv, and stopping at 20%, you'd probably collecting somewhere around 9000-10,000ml total . Divide that by 3 hours of run-time and you get 50-55.5ml per min. That's a tad on the high side for a spirit run I would think. If your actual runtime (not counting heatup, or teardown) was even less, I'd would say that's really fast for a 5 gal rig, and I'd be very surprised if you weren't pulling tails most of the run.

Every rig is different, flow-rates and all, but just for comparison, a "slow" flow-rate for me on a 5 gal pot would be 15-20ml per min. A med rate would be around 25-30ml per min. Anything over 30ml and I start to increase the chance I'd pull tails early.

>>>> Finally, most posts I have seen advocate the minimum thumper size is at 30% to 50% of the pot size. Even up to the same size is used. Here are some posts.

Re: thumper size
Post by jedneck » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:38 pm
1/3-1/2 the size. 5 gallon min for a keg. I use to run a keg and 5 gallon thump.

Re: thumper size
Post by S-Cackalacky » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:44 pm
Can always go bigger too. Lots of folks around here run a thumper of equal size to their boiler, It allows them to run bigger wash charges, or run dirty stuff in the thumper and not have to worry about scorching. I have a 5 gallon boiler and a 4 gallon thumper. Works nice.

Re: How to determine thumper size?
Post by rtalbigr » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:21 pm
A thumper should be 30-40% the size of your main boiler, so the five gallon would be marginal at best. Plumping is simple: the inlet from the main boiler should extend almost to the bottom of the thumper; the outlet should just penetrate the lid.

>>>> So, watch out for overfilling your 1 gal thumper. One way to get around the overfilling is to start off with a lower ABV like 30% in the pot and 35 % in the thumper. I will check this out and do some more computer runs later looking at various run times.
Last edited by haggy on Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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wpkluck
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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:41 pm

haggy wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:05 pm
Caution:

I have done some preliminary calculations of your setup with my pot/thumper model. I see that the thumper liquid can build up to just over 1 gal using your input data set. I need to check this out further. Your thumper is 1 gal so you could be in danger of puking.

It looks like this did not happen in THE RUN..
I appreciate the time you put into this, but really not a problem. Ran 10 gal (2x5) without changing the thump, and ever went over 3/4. It’s a purchased setup, so if puking occurs, it’s a learning opportunity. That can happen regardless of the calls, since everyone’s experience is different. It’s good to have access to all that info; I’ve read it all prior. But I’ve even seen experts puking, so I figure there’s nothing like time on the ground.
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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wpkluck
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Re: Yield

Post by wpkluck » Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:38 pm

But I will say I’m considering getting a 2-way valve for the thumper, so I can drain and recharge on the fly, allowing for running a double charge back-to-back.
- The Doubler (5 gal pot w/thumper)

Run it, X. Thump it, XX. If you get 1.5, well, I think you can do better!
It's EASY to make good liquor. It's even EASIER to make bad liquor!

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Re: Yield

Post by subbrew » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:52 am

wpkluck wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:58 am
Tummydoc wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:52 pm


Batch1: I got 9 jars total from a ~4 gal charge, a bit more than a gallon of total product. About 25% heads (>150p), 50 hearts (>100p), 25 tails (<100p). None of it tasted nasty, so I dumped it all together (probably not the best move!) and tempered (since I was going to age it, still another 'not so great' move). But I tempered with oak stick, and later in a barrel, for 130 days. I'm actually happy with the finished product, especially since I know it will only get better from there.

I don't know if you went back and checked the numbers but your wash on batch one must have been over 14% abv. From your product numbers (assuming one gallon) (.25 X 75%) + (.5 X 50%) + (.25 X 50%) = .5625 gal of alcohol. Plus if your tails average 50% (100P) you are probably leaving alcohol in the boiler. My tails start at about 50% and then I collect down to 15% or so for an average of 30% or less. (note the first part of tails abv drops quickly and then levels out about 20 to 25% so the mix is not a mathematical average since the drop is not linear. ) And we did not include any fore shots numbers. So your wash abv had to be closer to 16%

On the good side you are either taking wider cuts than I or are doing a good job of condensing the heads and talks. My product comes out closer to 30% heads, 40% hearts, and 30% tails.

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Re: Yield

Post by Royco » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:27 pm

wpklug you said: "Thanks, haggy, for the thoughtful response. Not everyone show patience in this forum, and many are quite snarky (yeah, I’m sure that comment alone will draw in those)"

As a new member a little less arrogance could be useful; ie you reminded us 4 times in your opening paragraphs that you were an engineer inferring that you were well versed in all things applied math, logic, etc.

To guys who have done their 10 000 hours (I'm way off that mark) it must be very frustrating to be asked to answer questions that have been posted all over this forum. Admittedly well hidden at times, but you pick up such useful info during your search.

As an engineer you have all the basic tools to become a master distiller, but remember it's not pure science. There's also a bit of dark art in the mix, so never distill under a full moon or during the Ides of March :lol:

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