High ester yeast for whiskey

All styles of whiskey. This is for all-grain mashes.

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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by RedwoodHillBilly » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:31 am

OtisT wrote:
kiwi Bruce wrote: It's all new to me too...lots of research and reading...precious little practical experience...but that, my friend, is about to change...I got my malt, I got my yeast (WB06) a little time and I'm away laughing.
Bruce, I'm there with ya brother, learning every day.

I'm starting a new 15 gallon bourbon ferment in a day or two and will try it with WB-06, as your suggested. We can compare notes. :-) Since the yeast is new to me I'm gonna run this batch as happy as I can (no stress). I'll stress the batch after that to see the difference.

FYI, Safebrew WB-06 is cheeper, way cheaper, here that what you said you were paying. It's less than $4 for a 11.5g dry pack. Is there some trade war going on between NZ and FR?

Otis
Locally WB-06 and Abbaye Ale yeasts are US $4.49 / 11.5g sachets. You guys play with WB-06, and when I get a chance I'll play with Abbaye Ale.
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by Single Malt Yinzer » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:39 am

kiwi Bruce wrote:So to stress the yeast, do you mean low pitch rate, low aeriation, and high temp ferment? Yes, Yes and Yes!
I want to disagree with "low aeration" - but not strongly as I can't be sure. From reading enzymatic Ester production increases when yeast goes through the growth phase and they need oxygen to build up cell walls. It's why the low pitch rate increases esters. I am not sure if the a low oxygen environment would help with esters. I believe that a well aerated wort would be conducive to ester production. I also can't be sure as I open ferment so I don't bother aerating significantly.

I'll try to read more on this and see if I can find something useful versus me babbling.

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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by OtisT » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:47 am

Single Malt Yinzer wrote:
kiwi Bruce wrote:So to stress the yeast, do you mean low pitch rate, low aeriation, and high temp ferment? Yes, Yes and Yes!
I want to disagree with "low aeration" - but not strongly as I can't be sure. From reading enzymatic Ester production increases when yeast goes through the growth phase and they need oxygen to build up cell walls. It's why the low pitch rate increases esters. I am not sure if the a low oxygen environment would help with esters. I believe that a well aerated wort would be conducive to ester production. I also can't be sure as I open ferment so I don't bother aerating significantly.

I'll try to read more on this and see if I can find something useful versus me babbling.
Thanks for the warning. I must have read the same article, the one about oxygen being needed in the replication stage for new cell wall growth. I'm reading up on stress as well and will adjust where I'm pointed. Thanks again.
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by der wo » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:57 am

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... xygenation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Esters are an important component of the aroma of German wheat beers. Common home brewing knowledge lists pitching rate and level of oxigenation as important factors that effect the level of esters that are produced during fermentation. While it is commonly believed among home brewers that lower pitching rates result in higher ester levels, the literature reports that increased pitching rates lead to higher levels of esters. This experiment is designed to evaluate the affect of oxygen levels and yeast pitching rate on the ester production.
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Conclusion:
Despite the 9 fold difference in pitching rate and oxygen injection, which showed differences in the fermentation performance, the samples tasted remarkably similar and none of the blind taste tests could tell them apart. The actual difference in dissolved oxygen that was available to the yeast was likely much smaller, but the pitching rates were definitely widely different.
Last edited by der wo on Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by der wo » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:06 pm

And they claim the opposite:
https://wyeastlab.com/pitch-rates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Pitch rates make a dramatic difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer. Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds.

A low pitch rate can lead to:

Excess levels of diacetyl
Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
Increase in ester formation
Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
High terminal gravities
Stuck fermentations
Increased risk of infection

High pitch rates can lead to:

Very low ester production
Very fast fermentations
Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by kiwi Bruce » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:09 pm

A contradiction like this will only be resolved by trial and error...for anyone who hasn't read the articles the contradiction is, wyeastlabs maintains that a high pitch rate of yeast will give a low ester level...the other, from Braukaiser...they tried to resolve the issue and could not confirm the opposite, that high pitch rates and the O2 levels, give increased ester levels...and proved nothing. How this was for beer...with whisky, where we actually boil the wash in the still, I think should have an positive impact on the esters formation, especially if there is a small amount of sulfuric acid included...However, we will see.
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by papapro » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:16 am

My hat is off for you guys I can not stop reading this thread recently I saved most of my backset/dunder and aging, this "low pitch,no airing and high temps ferment it is new school to me. As always I pitched when the wash was warm and that worked for me but I noticed no my last batch I got more flavour and less fusel and that batch had a bit less yeast than usual.

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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by Single Malt Yinzer » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:32 am

That's the kind of post that make me happy.

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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by papapro » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:41 am

SMY I had some other experiments lately on super slow distilling but I will start new thread in new distillers section.
Right now I think my new glasses or I need some rest from reading, Reading thread and all the links it is mind blowing experience.

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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by OtisT » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:59 am

RedwoodHillBilly wrote:
kiwi Bruce wrote:A thought occurred to me late last night...How much of the esterification/phenolic reaction is actually happening in the pot while we run the distillation?
While I can't (yet) quantify it, I would expect that it is quite a lot. This because that dehydration is an essential part of creating esters from alcohols and carboxylic acids. The sequestration of H2O from the reaction is essential to a reasonable reaction rate. This is one of the reasons that H2SO4 is a good catalyst. Distillation also helps in H2O sequestration.

There is a short reference here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester#Other_methods" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
This could be why a good SLOW pot stillin produces such a fine drop. Flavor not just being a separation thing as much as it is about giving the acids/fats/alcohol adequate time in high heat to "get it on" and make esters. Maybe a little Barry White next time I'm pot stillin. ;-)
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by Single Malt Yinzer » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:26 pm

papapro wrote:SMY I had some other experiments lately on super slow distilling but I will start new thread in new distillers section.
DO IT! That's another part of the flavor equation we have yet to explore in detail. I think we have some ideas as to what's going on (what RHB/Kiwi Bruce/OtisT mentioned) but it's something we should do some research into.

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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by raketemensch » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:33 pm

Single Malt Yinzer wrote:
papapro wrote:SMY I had some other experiments lately on super slow distilling but I will start new thread in new distillers section.
DO IT! That's another part of the flavor equation we have yet to explore in detail. I think we have some ideas as to what's going on (what RHB/Kiwi Bruce/OtisT mentioned) but it's something we should do some research into.
If you dig around there’s a thread about the low and slow vs fast runs from 1-1.5 years ago. As I recall, in the end there wasn’t a noticeable difference.

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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by Shine0n » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:20 pm

The only noticeable difference I've found is that it smears a bit less with a slow run vs quicker.

Although I run a thumper my 1.5 runs at a medium pace is good as is!
I do believe that some new experiments are in order, I nominate... NOT ME!!! LOL

I've got enough mess going on with rum, mead, wine and apples, oh crap I almost forgot I need more HBB so I'm out on this one.

BUT, I will read anyone's post as I'm interested.

I do believe that if you use a yeast that produces some esters and use an infected backset which also creates esters when added to a wash or low wines it would create some wild flavors, possibly a combination of the 2 will have great results.

Who's up???

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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by Finneas29 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:20 am

I'm new to distilling but Jane been home brewing for years. An ale yeast for wheat beers and any strain of Belgian ale yeast will give you more esters, and a fruity flavor profile. Same with English ale yeast. Just taste a Paulaner wheat, any Belgian or Tetley's English ale and get a feel for the flavor. Fermenting at the high end of temp will increase esters, as mentioned above.

Here's a good article: http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2013/01/h ... cohol.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I get fruity esters from Irish ale yeast in my white dog, while Scottish Whisky yeast gave me peppery notes and less fruit.


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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by papapro » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:33 am

Single Malt Yinzer wrote:
papapro wrote:SMY I had some other experiments lately on super slow distilling but I will start new thread in new distillers section.
DO IT! That's another part of the flavor equation we have yet to explore in detail. I think we have some ideas as to what's going on (what RHB/Kiwi Bruce/OtisT mentioned) but it's something we should do some research into.
I just add it
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=67683

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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by OtisT » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:56 pm

I finally pitched my Safbrew WB-06 today. Label reads: "selected for wheat beer fermentation. The yeast produces subtle ester and phenol flavour notes typical of wheat beers. Sedimentation low, FG high. Temp range ideally 18-24C (64-75F)"

I pitched 23 g into 15 gallons at 75 deg F, top of the preferred temp range. I ariated before pitching rehydrated WB-06.

The wash is 70%corn, 30% three malts. Conversion was good, verified with an iodine test. SG is 10 68. 15 gallons of wash contains 2 gallons of Bourbon backset. PH of wash adjusted up to 5.5.

From the yeast label, I guess I should not expect fermentation to eat all the sugar in my wash. "FG high". I guess I will find out.

Hi Bruce. You get your ferment with WB-06 going yet?
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by kiwi Bruce » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:54 am

Not yet...middle of apple harvest, about 5 bushels left to process, should be done by tomorrow...then we'll see.
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by OtisT » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:16 pm

OtisT wrote:I finally pitched my Safbrew WB-06 today. Label reads: "selected for wheat beer fermentation. The yeast produces subtle ester and phenol flavour notes typical of wheat beers. Sedimentation low, FG high. Temp range ideally 18-24C (64-75F)"

I pitched 23 g into 15 gallons at 75 deg F, top of the preferred temp range. I ariated before pitching rehydrated WB-06.

The wash is 70%corn, 30% three malts. Conversion was good, verified with an iodine test. SG is 10 68. 15 gallons of wash contains 2 gallons of Bourbon backset. PH of wash adjusted up to 5.5.

From the yeast label, I guess I should not expect fermentation to eat all the sugar in my wash. "FG high". I guess I will find out.

Hi Bruce. You get your ferment with WB-06 going yet?
Update on my WB-06. My ferment is still progressing, though slower than what I am accustomed to when using (much more) bakers yeast. Typically I would be done by now with bakers. I'm on day 8, and the ferment is still bubbling slowly. I had a nice crausen on day two, three, and four but they has since dropped. FGs are 10 06 and 10 12 for my two fermenters. My temp started at the 75F, and has slowly dropped to 68F, all still within the preferred range over the 8 days. I just added my 15w bulb heater to my insulation box to bring temp up 2 or 3 degrees today.

I'm still curious about the yeast label saying "FG=high." Until I learn otherwise, I am assuming this means I should not expect the ferment to dry out too far. I'll continue testing sugar daily until fermenting stops.

These smell wonderful. I like the smell of my bakers ferments too, but these are different and a more pleasurable smell to me, for sure. Seems more fruity and they lack that familiar Bakers yeast smell. I'll need to do a few more of these to really compare and identify what smells are coming from my yeast vs my wash ingredients, but I am liking what I am getting so far. :-)
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by Single Malt Yinzer » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:11 pm

OtisT - Open or closed ferment?

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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by OtisT » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:53 pm

Single Malt Yinzer wrote:OtisT - Open or closed ferment?
I use two 12 gal plastic ferment buckets, each about 8 gal full. That leaves 12" of lip to catch co2. Plastic lid on top, but it's not air tight.
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by Antler24 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:03 pm

Ringwood ale yeast is well known in the beer world as one of the biggest ester producing yeasts. Lots of butter flavours that I'm planning to try in a bourbon mash. Some hate it, other love it.
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by OtisT » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:59 am

Antler24 wrote:Ringwood ale yeast is well known in the beer world as one of the biggest ester producing yeasts. Lots of butter flavours that I'm planning to try in a bourbon mash. Some hate it, other love it.
If you are looking for butter in a big way, I can recommend Bob's Red Mill Bakers Yeast, and a high temp ferment 90F. I have been doing rum and bourbon all summer with that same yeast, and the dominant scent to me in both products Is butter. I love it, but like you said, some don't.
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by kiwi Bruce » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:06 pm

Single Malt Yinzer put this page on esters and the compounds that go into there making...up on wiki...very good resource, Thank you SMY

http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Ester" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by Antler24 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:52 pm

OtisT wrote:
Antler24 wrote:Ringwood ale yeast is well known in the beer world as one of the biggest ester producing yeasts. Lots of butter flavours that I'm planning to try in a bourbon mash. Some hate it, other love it.
If you are looking for butter in a big way, I can recommend Bob's Red Mill Bakers Yeast, and a high temp ferment 90F. I have been doing rum and bourbon all summer with that same yeast, and the dominant scent to me in both products Is butter. I love it, but like you said, some don't.
I myself love it. My favourite commercial beer is made by a brewery that have used only Ringwood. I used it on alot of ag beers but never for distilling. Someday I will, I just don't have the control over fermentation temps like I did back then.
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by kiwi Bruce » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:49 pm

I read recently, (Tummy bug that laid me up for a week, got lots of reading done) that the esters yeasts produce are only partially released into the wort, the bulk are stored internally...and released by boiling.
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by jb-texshine » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:59 pm

Y'all got me wondering about using d-47 in grain now...
It did make a flavorful rum...
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by JoeyZR1 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:27 pm

I plan on using 71-b on the next rum.

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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by Finneas29 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:06 pm

JoeyZR1 wrote:I plan on using 71-b on the next rum.
I made Riesling with 71-b. Very fruity and a bit of spice. Works fast, too.


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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by RedwoodHillBilly » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:47 pm

kiwi Bruce wrote:I read recently, (Tummy bug that laid me up for a week, get lots of reading done) that the esters yeasts produce are only partially released into the wort, the bulk are stored internally...and released by boiling.
Interesting, have you got a reference? If this is so, my method of steam stripping the grains and trub using clear beer in the boiler has yet another justification. I do believe that I get more grain flavor this way, but I hadn't thought that I'd get more esters as well.
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Re: High ester yeast for whiskey

Post by Lyonsie » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:03 am

Im actually intrested to have come across this thread. I have 200l of apple juice getting pressed this Saturday. And although i dont really understand the science behind it i have purchased two yeasts that are noted for the production of high esters and fusil oils, in a bid to carry over apple flavour as most of this is in the heads.
The two varieties i chose are ma33 and aw4. Both belong too the Saccharomyces Cerevisiae family. Im expecting a starting abv of about 6% and it will be ran slowly through a pot and a thumper loaded with a mixture of wash and concentrated apple syrup. If anyone with more experience thinks im going wrong here id be grateful for any input.
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