Poor Man’s Irish All Grain & Sugar Head

[8Ball]

Poor Man’s Irish AG

Grain Bill
○ Unmalted
1.00 # Steam rolled barley, roasted 6.3%
0.50 # Rolled oats, Quaker 3.1%
1.50 # Flaked maize, brewers 9.4%
1.00 # Flaked rye 6.3%

○ 4.00 # unmalted @ 25%

○ Malted
3.75 # Simpsons Golden Promise, malt barley 23.5%
3.75 # 2-row pale malt barley 23.5%
3.75 # Amber malt red wheat 23.5%
0.75 # malt rye 4.7%

○ 12.0 # malted @ 75%

Pot 1: Unmalted Grains
Adjuncts:
2 spoons Fermax
Pinch epsom salts
Tiny pinch ascorbic acid
1 spoon gypsum
1 each multi/B-cx
1 spoon bread yeast as nutrient
2.5G water and adjuncts heated to 195F.
Add grains and settle at 190F.
Add HTL-A and maintain 185-190F x 60 mins.
Let cool to 175F then transfer to Pot 2 Malted Grains.

Pot 2: Malted Grains
Adjuncts:
Pinch epsom salts
Tiny pinch ascorbic acid
1 spoon gypsum
4.5G water and adjuncts heated to 116F.
Add malts while power stirring.
Let settle at 112F x 30 mins.
Add contents of Pot 2 which is at ~ 175F. This should bring the temperature up to the second step mash range of 120-125F. Rest x 60 mins.
Add 1G backset, Amy-G, and alpha amylase.
Slowly bring heat up to 148F while power stirring.
Cut heat, wrap with blanket, and let it rest x 90 mins.
Do iodine check for conversion & take SG reading: 1.065 (98.4% conversion efficiency), will go up after cool down period
Check pH. Should be ~ 4.6-4.7.
Add a couple handfuls of oyster shells.
If conversion is good, start aerating and cool down with a bug screen on top of the pot.
Cool down 18 hours.
Hydrate yeast
Take pre-pitch data:
Temp: 75.7F
pH: 4.89
SGR: 1.076
Time/Date: Friday, 06Mar, 1045, 2nd pitch @ 1500
Wrap a couple more handfuls of oyster shells in a cheese cloth sock and hang it in the middle of the fermenter.
Transfer Pot 2 to fermenter.
Pitch yeast starter

*** NOTE***
4 hours after pitching a yeast starter that was made 18 hours before, there was no activity: Flat, no bubbles, dead. Measured out an additional 18 grams of FP900 yeast and sprinkled directly on top of the wort @ 75.5 Within one hour, had a good, creamy, grain cap and the temperature had risen by one degree F from 75.5 to 76.8. Lows in the 40’s forecast, so wrapped it up in blankets and let it do its thing. Checked 24 hours later and still warm with good cap, ambient temps ~70F.

Corn 33 DP
2-Row Barley Malt 32 DP
Wheat 30 DP
Rye 25 DP
Grain Bill DP = 618.25
Target SG: 618.25/7.5=82.4333 1.082
Actual OG: 1.076

Starter:
24 oz water @ 85F
2 oz adjunct treated water from Pot 1
4 oz wort from Pot 2
18 grams FermPro 900 (double the recommended dose of 1g/G)
Hydrate FP900 yeast 15 minutes prior to pitching.

Final SG: 1.006
Final pH: 3.86
Total ferment time: 7 days
Stripped yield: 1.5G@32.33%+1G@9.17%

Actual: 1.076-1.006=0.07 0.07*131=9.17 %
(0.0917*6*128)=70.4256 70.43*0.90=63.387
64 oz projected at aging strength (60-65%)

I haven’t done the spirit run yet, but the first quart of each strip run came out at 55% and tastes very promising. The spirit will be the low wines plus a gallon of fermented wash (wort) that was held in reserve. The heart cut will be 79%-65%, plus any jars that smell and taste good between 65% and 50%. Everything not in the heart cut will be recycled into the next run. Aging will be in a 5G Gibbs cask, 4th use for a long time.

Here is the piggy back sugar head:

PMI-Sugar Head
1G backset
10 # Morena raw sugar
1 spoon gypsum
2 spoons Fermax
Pinch Epsom Salt & Ascorbic Acid
Oyster shells in cheese cloth sock
All the squeezed grain.
Dissolve the sugar with hot backset in 5G pot. Fill pot with cool tap water. Add adjuncts and stir in. Dump into fermenter. 85F pitch temp at the 8G mark.
Sprinkle 18g (25ml dry measure) FP921 on top of wash.
Hydrate 15ml dry measure additional FP921 in warm water and pitch.
Grain cap should start in an hour. Overnight the grain cap should be at 9G mark.

Cheers.

[Clae]

Sorry in advance for trying to raise this post from the grave, but....

How did it go? I just did my first Irish style as well and was hoping to hear how / how long you aged for and how it turned out?

[8Ball]

Sorry in advance for trying to raise this post from the grave, but....

How did it go? I just did my first Irish style as well and was hoping to hear how / how long you aged for and how it turned out?

Hey Clae, thanks for asking. I wound up doing 4 runs of this and they are still aging on used oak in glass. Right at the 12 month mark now.
The first two are combined into a gallon jug with a cork that has grooves cut into the sides to allow for air exchange. That stuff is very nice right now. A little sweetness up front, then blossoms into a grainy biscuit that lingers and fades away.
The third run got a lacto infection. I ran it and its sitting on used oak. It is coming along well.
The 4th and last run I changed things up a little and I’m sipping on some on ice that is at aging strength. Same grain bill, but subtract 1# amber malt wheat. Replace with: 0.75# G. Honey malt & 0.25# Caramunich malt. It is really sweet up front, very smooth, and loaded with grainy flavor. Personally, I prefer the original grain bill because it is only slightly sweet up front. But if you like a rich, sweet whiskey, then this version will work.
All in all, this has turned out well for me so far. The sugarheads turn out good too.

[Clae]

Ahh, taking a note from ShineOn's Honey Bear Bourbon! The honey malt sounds like a wonderful pairing for a biscuity Irish grain bill. My grain bill was a lot less thought out (30% Barley, 30% Barley Malt, 18% Oats, 22% corn) but I just blended and it seems promising. I definitely want to age on some used oak cubes like you do, but I've heard it's also popular to finish in port or sherry casks. I was thinking of throwing some new charred oak soaked for a week in port to simulate this (Perhaps a 50/50 mix of old oak and soaked oak?)

I've never heard about cutting grooves in cork to emulate a barrel's gas exchange, do you think a similar effect may be achieved by punching a few holes in a mason jar lid? Sounds like it might solve a major problem with glass aging if so.


Thanks for getting back to me!

[8Ball]

… I definitely want to age on some used oak cubes like you do, but I've heard it's also popular to finish in port or sherry casks. I was thinking of throwing some new charred oak soaked for a week in port to simulate this (Perhaps a 50/50 mix of old oak and soaked oak?) I use hand cut “bones” cut with a hatchet from the heart of seasoned white oak. I toast & charr them, then use them in bourbons. The used ones get re-used in the Irish & all malts, etc. I’ve soaked used bones in an expensive bottle of Olorosso cream sherry for three months, then taken them out and sun dried them for a few days. I saved the sherry/oak essence too. Honestly, I’m not a fan of the wine flavoring that I’ve done to date. I’m sure that it has everything to do with how little time the spirit has aged. You could probably put some bones in a jar of heads, pour in a little wine, then let it sit for a few months. This will give you “used” sherry infused oak to age with.

I've never heard about cutting grooves in cork to emulate a barrel's gas exchange, do you think a similar effect may be achieved by punching a few holes in a mason jar lid? Sounds like it might solve a major problem with glass aging if so. You can cut grooves in cork or drill a hole down the middle. Just make sure you are using real cork! I wouldn’t drill holes or use the standard lid & ring that comes with the jar. I use 1/2G wide mouth jars and leave some head space. Get the reusable plastic jar lids and insert 3.5 inch ptfe discs in them. Then place a coffee filter on top of the jar. Put the ptfe lined lids on loosely to allow for air exchange. Done.


Thanks for getting back to me!

[n_plains_drifter]

Yo 8Ball,

Thinking about going this route and your recipe looks very interesting. How's she tasting at the 30 month mark? Got any left?

Best, Drifter

Hey Clae, thanks for asking. I wound up doing 4 runs of this and they are still aging on used oak in glass. Right at the 12 month mark now.
The first two are combined into a gallon jug with a cork that has grooves cut into the sides to allow for air exchange. That stuff is very nice right now. A little sweetness up front, then blossoms into a grainy biscuit that lingers and fades away.
The third run got a lacto infection. I ran it and its sitting on used oak. It is coming along well.
The 4th and last run I changed things up a little and I’m sipping on some on ice that is at aging strength. Same grain bill, but subtract 1# amber malt wheat. Replace with: 0.75# G. Honey malt & 0.25# Caramunich malt. It is really sweet up front, very smooth, and loaded with grainy flavor. Personally, I prefer the original grain bill because it is only slightly sweet up front. But if you like a rich, sweet whiskey, then this version will work.
All in all, this has turned out well for me so far. The sugarheads turn out good too.

[8Ball]

Yo 8Ball,
Thinking about going this route and your recipe looks very interesting. How's she tasting at the 30 month mark? Got any left?
Best, Drifter

Hey Drifter, its all gone and it was a proper Irish to me at two years. It will not disappoint. I made another version earlier this year and so far so good. Here is that grain bill FYI;

Irish 2022

Grain Bill
5.00 Maris Otter Malt Barley 29.4%
5.00 Golden Feed Malt Barley 29.4%
2.00 Smoked Golden Feed Malt Barley 11.8%
0.75 G. Honey Malt Barley 4.4%
1.25 Amber Feed Wheat Malt 7.4%
1.00 Flaked Rye 5.9%
1.00 Flaked Oats - Food Grade 5.9%
1.00 Flaked Corn 5.9%

17.00# / 7.5G = 2.27 #/G
82.4% malted grains
17.6% unmalted grains

[n_plains_drifter]

That looks mighty respectable too. What is your source for the golden feed malt? LHBS?

Hey Drifter, its all gone and it was a proper Irish to me at two years. It will not disappoint. I made another version earlier this year and so far so good. Here is that grain bill FYI;

Irish 2022

Grain Bill
5.00 Maris Otter Malt Barley 29.4%
5.00 Golden Feed Malt Barley 29.4%
2.00 Smoked Golden Feed Malt Barley 11.8%
0.75 G. Honey Malt Barley 4.4%
1.25 Amber Feed Wheat Malt 7.4%
1.00 Flaked Rye 5.9%
1.00 Flaked Oats - Food Grade 5.9%
1.00 Flaked Corn 5.9%

17.00# / 7.5G = 2.27 #/G
82.4% malted grains
17.6% unmalted grains

[8Ball]

That looks mighty respectable too. What is your source for the golden feed malt? LHBS?

Drifter, I get a sack for around $20 from the feed store. I malt & roast (kiln) my own. Here’s my notes:

Malting Barley
1. Cool weather is best.
2. Fill bucket 2/3 full.
3. Rinse grains & remove floaters and debris.
4. Line a pot & strainer with a laundry bag.
5. Transfer grains to pot & lined strainer.
6. Cover with 1 inch water.
7. Add 2 ml StarSan & 8 oz peroxide.
8. Add a gallon of fresh ice.
9. Cover, and let steep 6-8 hours max.
10. Remove strainer and drain 30 minutes.
11. Line 3 malting trays with canvas.
12. Transfer grains to trays ~ 1-1/2” deep.
13. Cover with wet thin cotton towel or canvas.
14. Lightly mist cover, just get it moist.
15. Let sit overnight x 12 hours to breath. (Should see roots and chits forming in the morning, if not, soak grains for 2-3 hours more, then let it rest another 8 hours.)
16. Mist the grains in the morning and mix them well with your fingers. This gets the water evenly distributed and moves the grains away from the bottom.
17. Cover with towels/canvas again.
18. From here on out, you don’t want to get the grains soaking wet, but you do want them damp and get air.
19. Mix the grains a couple times a day and lightly mist to keep them from getting dry.
20. If they are too wet, uncover and mix more frequently. If they start to dry, lightly mist and keep covered. If you get a white mold after the shoots start growing, start the drying very soon to save the grains.
21. Once the shoot is 3/4 the length of the grain, start the drying process immediately. This should take a day or two max.
22. Sun drying during the day and then bring inside with a fan blowing across. Repeat until the grain is good &dry.
23. Once the rootlets are dead, cold smoke the grains at the end of drying day 1 while they are still a little soft. Pecan & White Oak x 4 hours.
24. Kiln 200F-239F max while stirring every 30 minutes x 2 hours. This produces a pale golden toast with a Linter 115 diastatic power and a Lovibond 10 color.
25. Knock off the dry roots by shaking in a covered bucket.
26. Store in air tight bucket for a long time.


I also get Steam Rolled Barley from the feed store. I roast it at 200F for 20 minutes, then bump it up to 325F-350F for 40 more minutes.

[n_plains_drifter]

8Ball:

I just saw that I can get some steam rolled barley at a feed store by me. You are just toasting the steam rolled for flavor, correct? Unfortunately, my LHBS is out of Maris Otter right now, but they have a domestic version that has the right flavor profile.

I've got one more batch of HoneyBear that I need to mash (the sugarhead is going into my barrel to replace the angel and distiller's shares over the past year .) Most of the bourbon will age in glass, but any excess will also be added to the barrel to transition it from straight UJSSM to a more complex drop. I'm also looking forward to your input on a new thread that I'm about to start in the Aging forum. Thanks for all of your good advice.

Best, Drifter.

Drifter, I get a sack for around $20 from the feed store. I malt & roast (kiln) my own. Here’s my notes:



I also get Steam Rolled Barley from the feed store. I roast it at 200F for 20 minutes, then bump it up to 325F-350F for 40 more minutes.

[8Ball]

I just saw that I can get some steam rolled barley at a feed store by me. You are just toasting the steam rolled for flavor, correct?

You are correct. Toasting the SRB from the feed store gives it a real nice flavor. It also kills any nasties & eggs that are probably on the grains. If you store the toasted grains in a clean bucket with a snap on lid, you won’t have to worry about the weevils.

[6 Row Joe]

That looks mighty respectable too. What is your source for the golden feed malt? LHBS?

Hey Drifter, its all gone and it was a proper Irish to me at two years. It will not disappoint. I made another version earlier this year and so far so good. Here is that grain bill FYI;

Irish 2022

Grain Bill
5.00 Maris Otter Malt Barley 29.4%
5.00 Golden Feed Malt Barley 29.4%
2.00 Smoked Golden Feed Malt Barley 11.8%
0.75 G. Honey Malt Barley 4.4%
1.25 Amber Feed Wheat Malt 7.4%
1.00 Flaked Rye 5.9%
1.00 Flaked Oats - Food Grade 5.9%
1.00 Flaked Corn 5.9%

17.00# / 7.5G = 2.27 #/G
82.4% malted grains
17.6% unmalted grains

That sounds fantastic. I was cleaning house last year and made up what I called my "Mega Malt" batch. It was 4 or 5 left over malts that I finished in a 3 liter barrel. After the angel's share and a year on oak it was a smooth and creamy concotcion. It is all gone now. A quart didn't last long. I might have written down the recipe. I would have to look.

[Chauncey]

Recipe sounds damn good man, might be a bit tough for people with less mashing experience due to the step process but it'd be good practice for em.

It's been a while since I've done AG. I'll probably scale this up and do it.

Clearly you got skills. Awesome conversion efficiency!

[8Ball]

Recipe sounds damn good man, might be a bit tough for people with less mashing experience due to the step process but it'd be good practice for em.

It's been a while since I've done AG. I'll probably scale this up and do it.

Clearly you got skills. Awesome conversion efficiency!

Wow. Thanks for the kind words. Appreciate it.

[8Ball]

[
That sounds fantastic. I was cleaning house last year and made up what I called my "Mega Malt" batch. It was 4 or 5 left over malts that I finished in a 3 liter barrel. After the angel's share and a year on oak it was a smooth and creamy concotcion. It is all gone now. A quart didn't last long. I might have written down the recipe. I would have to look.

6RJ,
I’m getting ready to do the same when I finish up my bourbon runs. Gonna take all the leftover grains and start mixing & matching to use it up. Then I’ll start over with fresh grains.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Sorry to interrupt...
That's my "The Irish Canuck" pure single pot whiskey which is actually bubbling in a fermenter so far:

PaleAle: 21%
Pilsner: 21%
Dark chocolate barley malt: 1%
Rye malt (unfermented): 1%

Toasted barley grist: 21%
Toasted oat grist: 17%
Toasted rolled corn: 9%
Rolled rye: 9%

OG: 1,07 (18% brix)

Gonna triple-potstill it to get 80-82% AbV.

[8Ball]

Sorry to interrupt...
That's my "The Irish Canuck" pure single pot whiskey which is actually bubbling in a fermenter so far:

PaleAle: 21%
Pilsner: 21%
Dark chocolate barley malt: 1%
Rye malt (unfermented): 1%

Toasted barley grist: 21%
Toasted oat grist: 17%
Toasted rolled corn: 9%
Rolled rye: 9%

OG: 1,07 (18% brix)

Gonna triple-potstill it to get 80-82% AbV.

Vlag— no interruption at all. All relevant posts are welcome. Your grain bill looks very tasty. That little bit of chocolate & rye combined with toasted grains is going to be great.

[RC Al]

Just a little nit pick of your process, most of the vitamins your adding get well and truly torched at boiling (and some far below that even), perhaps grind them up and pitch just before the yeast?

Edit, fermaid lists pitching temp at 65-67f, you may be killing that too

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Your grain bill looks very tasty. That little bit of chocolate & rye combined with toasted grains is going to be great.

Oh, I hope so, thank you. And the odd percentage is caused by the packages' sizes

[8Ball]

Just a little nit pick of your process, most of the vitamins your adding get well and truly torched at boiling (and some far below that even), perhaps grind them up and pitch just before the yeast?

Edit, fermaid lists pitching temp at 65-67f, you may be killing that too

Thanks! All feedback is welcome. I also add tiny amounts of nutes to the starter with the yeast. Oh well, I guess the all grain mashes don’t need nutes after all.