Flaked rye and flaked corn

All styles of whiskey. This is for all-grain mashes.

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Cabron99
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Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by Cabron99 »

So, this is embarrassing. Been brewing better than average beer for 12 years or so, but never with flaked grains to any extent. One might think its a simple thing to step up to mashing a mix of flaked corn and rye for a rye whisky. At 74 years old I was looking for another adventure. BTW I've been distilling for about 18 months and am quite satisfied with the rums and UJSSM I make. Let's cut to the chase:
15lb flaked corn
20lb flaked rye
15 gal water
combined at 165 for mash and hydration
What a stuck mess.
First stuck mash of my career. I ran it through Beersmith, after much research on this delightful site. I guess I just don't get it. I added more hot water up to 20 gallons, max capacity. Oops for got to say I added a crapton of enzymes. All to no avail. As a last resort I divided it between 5 six gallon fermenters (about 3 gal ea) and topped off with more RO water. Left it until morning and added bread yeast to all. It is now bubbling away happily but I know I've engineered a massive FU. Without too much derision, I'm old and brittle, what should I have done and or where should I go from here??
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Demy
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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by Demy »

No mockery, not from me. For better or worse we all mess up every now and then ... I don't know if I understand correctly but you had problems in filtration right? It occurs to me that perhapsle the husks of cerealsthat create a filter bed are missing, perhaps in combination with a partial work of the enzymes.
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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by zach »

Sounds like you may have exceeded the enzyme temperature at 165?

At this point maybe add 4 lbs of sugar to each bucket and see what happens.
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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by still_stirrin »

Flaking the cereal grains (corn, wheat, rye, oats, etc) gelatinizes them in the process. And what you’re left with is a grain starch flake that is ready for enzymes to convert to sugars. But in the flaking process, it also reduces most of the fibrous materials that give your mash the consistency you’re familiar with in your beer brewing experience.

So, some fiber is good for the mash, be-it malted barley (which also brings enzymes to your mash tun) or rice hulls. The flakes just turn to “mush” when mashed and the grain hulls help keep the mash bed porous so you can lauter, if you prefer to do that. The hulls also keep the mush from compacting in the fermenter if you prefer to ferment “on the grain”.

As noted, the starch converting enzymes work best at mash temperatures between 145*F and 155*F, with the lower end of the range more conducive to fermentable sugars. Mashing at 165* would denature the enzymes in a cereal grain, except with your mashbill being only flaked grains, the enzymes have been denatured by the flaking process. So, you indeed need to add active enzymes, either the dry or liquid type, or by adding malted barley to your recipe. And as I’ve suggested, using malted barley also helps the porosity of the mash as well, so it is a good option.

Incidently, since the flakes have been gelatinized in the flaking process, you can mash straight away at the saccarification temperature, 150*F for example.

I can imagine the pastey slurry you got by doughing in flaked rye and flaked corn, both which make a sticky mess. Adding some “roughage” next time would make the mash much easier.
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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by Cabron99 »

"I can imagine the pastey slurry you got by doughing in flaked rye and flaked corn, both which make a sticky mess. Adding some “roughage” next time would make the mash much easier.
ss"

It was hard to believe, let alone imagine. The biggest bowl of porridge I've ever seen. And some of the best tasting, also. I get all the stuff about mash temp and how the enzymes work, and we actually got pretty close. Never saw anything smooth out though. I have a feeling the grain to water ratio was off. If I can get that confirmed, I can go forward with a red face but with a smile on it. It was just so darned thick!!

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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by still_stirrin »

Cabron99 wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:31 pm...I have a feeling the grain to water ratio was off. If I can get that confirmed, I can go forward with a red face but with a smile on it. It was just so darned thick!!
Well, I use flakes at the same weight to water ratio as malt. But, I don't use more than 15% to 20% of the grain bill as flakes. The rest is malt or milled whole grains.

So, in keeping with the general "rule of thumb", 2 lb. of grains or flakes per gallon of mash water. With that, you're coming in around 2.33 lb. per gallon, a little heavy but not far off.

I don't know if this helps you going forward, but I believe using an "all flaked grain" recipe is flirting with disaster.
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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by greggn »

Cabron99 wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:49 am
20lb flaked rye

Oops for got to say I added a crapton of enzymes.

Flaked or not, that's a lot of rye in a relatively small amount of water. Have you worked with rye before and, if so, how did you manage the beta-glucans ? Also, you don't mention what enzymes you used ... there are some specialty ones that break down those long-chain beta-glucans to make the wort less viscous.
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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by Demy »

Weight We all agree that the problem is the lack of bran. I would add that rye is a bit more "messy" than other cereals, it has a sticky consistency, which in my opinion also contributed to the problem. The amount of water doesn't help much because when all that starch settles to the bottom, the water has a hard time getting through that wall. In fact, in a normal beer wort the real filter are the cereal skins, if it were not for this any filtering system would have some problems, this applies to a bottom collection (for example from a tap), perhaps part of the solution is suction from above.
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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by Cabron99 »

Well, I appreciate the responses but I'm still confused. I'm not in my shop right now but I think I used amylase enzymes. One of them didn't have a temp range listed and the other said room temp. I'll elaborate when I'm back in the shop.

I ordered some more rye (flaked, crystal, malted, etc.). I'll probably construct something a little more like a beer with 25-30% ryes, around 1.09 or so. I'm a little disappointed with my first rye attempt. I knew going in this might be a steep learning curve. This is probably good therapy for my PTSD ('Nam). When I climb out of my self-inflicted shell hole, I'll give it another try. Meanwhile, I might look for some pumpernickel.
Thanks for your responses. I'll post my future endeavors here.

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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by still_stirrin »

A few years ago (22 to be exact), I brewed a rye beer (Roggen) in the traditional German wheat style at a local brewpub. The batch size was 7bbl, or roughly 250 US gallons. The recipe was 40% malted rye, 40% malted wheat, and 20% malted barley. Normally, a brew day would be done in 8 to 10 hours including weighing the grains, milling, water heat up, mashing, sparging, kettle boil, runoff, and cleanup. But, with this "high rye" recipe it took me closer to 18 hours...oh, what a mess. The sparging was a NIGHTMARE!

So, if you're truly looking at a high rye whiskey (distiller's beer), then using malted rye would be strongly urged. If you want the bready, sourdough taste from the rye, then malted rye is the choice. If you like the rougher, more earthy grain flavor, then use a portion of unmalted rye too. And you could come down the middle with both grains, malted and unmalted/rolled ryes.

And when using corn in the grain bill, I recommend doing 2 mashes, one with the rye and barley malt with upward temperature steps (to include a glucan rest at 90* to 100*F). For the glucan step, rest it for 30 to 45 minutes.

The other (corn) mash including a gelatinization step at 190*F. Hold the temperature for an hour or two, if you can. And use high temperature amylase enzymes to help liquify the porridge. After the gelatinization hold, add the rye mash to the corn mash and adjust the temperatures to saccarification temperature (150*F) until the starch test with iodine shows conversion is complete.

If you elect to use flaked corn instead of whole milled corn, then you can forgo the gelatinization step and simply add hot water to the rye mash to bring the temperature up to 155*F and then stir in the flaked corn for a temperature rest at 150*F.

As for the recipe, I believe your target of 25-30% of rye grains (malted or unmalted) is a good starting point. And for the corn, a 50% addition is also a good starting point. For the balance of the recipe (20-25%), I would use a good base malt (pale ale malt or lager malt). The rye bready and spicy flavors will be evident as will the corn buttery sweetness. The barley malt helps round out the traditional grain flavors. And if you're really motivated, you could use up to 10% flaked oats (I use quick oats from the grocery store). The oats adds a smoothness to the sharper edges of the rye's spiciness.

Don't give up. It'll come together for you. But, rye (especially a high rye) is a lot of work. Don't think you'll get out of it. It will be worth the effort, but it will require perseverance.

Good luck.
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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by Cabron99 »

still_stirrin wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:01 am A few years ago (22 to be exact), I brewed a rye beer (Roggen) in the traditional German wheat style at a local brewpub. The batch size was 7bbl, or roughly 250 US gallons. The recipe was 40% malted rye, 40% malted wheat, and 20% malted barley. Normally, a brew day would be done in 8 to 10 hours including weighing the grains, milling, water heat up, mashing, sparging, kettle boil, runoff, and cleanup. But, with this "high rye" recipe it took me closer to 18 hours...oh, what a mess. The sparging was a NIGHTMARE!

So, if you're truly looking at a high rye whiskey (distiller's beer), then using malted rye would be strongly urged. If you want the bready, sourdough taste from the rye, then malted rye is the choice. If you like the rougher, more earthy grain flavor, then use a portion of unmalted rye too. And you could come down the middle with both grains, malted and unmalted/rolled ryes.

And when using corn in the grain bill, I recommend doing 2 mashes, one with the rye and barley malt with upward temperature steps (to include a glucan rest at 90* to 100*F). For the glucan step, rest it for 30 to 45 minutes.

The other (corn) mash including a gelatinization step at 190*F. Hold the temperature for an hour or two, if you can. And use high temperature amylase enzymes to help liquify the porridge. After the gelatinization hold, add the rye mash to the corn mash and adjust the temperatures to saccarification temperature (150*F) until the starch test with iodine shows conversion is complete.

If you elect to use flaked corn instead of whole milled corn, then you can forgo the gelatinization step and simply add hot water to the rye mash to bring the temperature up to 155*F and then stir in the flaked corn for a temperature rest at 150*F.

As for the recipe, I believe your target of 25-30% of rye grains (malted or unmalted) is a good starting point. And for the corn, a 50% addition is also a good starting point. For the balance of the recipe (20-25%), I would use a good base malt (pale ale malt or lager malt). The rye bready and spicy flavors will be evident as will the corn buttery sweetness. The barley malt helps round out the traditional grain flavors. And if you're really motivated, you could use up to 10% flaked oats (I use quick oats from the grocery store). The oats adds a smoothness to the sharper edges of the rye's spiciness.

Don't give up. It'll come together for you. But, rye (especially a high rye) is a lot of work. Don't think you'll get out of it. It will be worth the effort, but it will require perseverance.

Good luck.
ss
Now, THIS, SS, is what I've been looking for. I haven't been able to find it on my own on this wonderful site. I know its there, but my search capacities must be limited. Thank you for the effort you put into furthering the craft and in particular in help with my sad case. I have more grain on the way so I'll be updating this effort in the future. At present I have 5 fermenters cooking away in the shop. Each is at least 1/2 full of grain; guess I'll be squeezing it somehow. Again, thanks for your effort!

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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by Cabron99 »

Can't explain it. Its down to 0.99. I'll probably have a total of 7-10 gallons to run. I'm delighted but will wait another week for it to settle somewhat. I'll report back.

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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by subbrew »

Carb,

How did the run go? New at this myself and have not done an all grain (brewed a boat of beer but that stuff lauters) and am hoping to learn a lot of "don't do this" before I start.
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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by rubberduck71 »

subbrew wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:51 pm Carb,

How did the run go? New at this myself and have not done an all grain (brewed a boat of beer but that stuff lauters) and am hoping to learn a lot of "don't do this" before I start.
Flaked corn is already hydrolized, so no need to take it up to near boiling & let it set for a while.

Check out step-mashing protocols for the flaked rye on the search bar. BIAB may be your friend if you don't have a false bottomed unit or malt pipe from your beer brewing equip.

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Re: Flaked rye and flaked corn

Post by Cabron99 »

My bad for not checking back in. As I recall (I don't take notes) I ended up with 3+ quarts of about 145-50 pr after blending. Cut to 120 and put on medium toast French oak chips. Some with a few cacao nibs. Even though slightly one dimensional, its my favorite rye; I have a modest collection of ryes. I drink it at around 95pr. The only thing holding me back is the hard time I had with mashing. I have since purchased 55lbs of malted rye, but am still a little gun-shy. Closing in on my last bottle so gotta do something quick.
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