all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

All styles of whiskey. This is for all-grain mashes.

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Hey folks. My head is pregnant with that idea for at least since October.

I have a lot of rye malt, white (unfermented), milled as fine as flour. And would like to get some fine rye whiskey (or bread wine if you don't mind). To be consumed as white dawg. Tasty but not poisonous. Fragrant but not overspiced.

I want to potstill it thrice. And to use a copper helmet for the 2nd and 3rd distillations. The total schedule - as below (criticism required):
.
triple rye malt project.png
.
The second thing... it will try go scorching. I have neither steam boiler nor thumper. So, I want to ferment it as wort, not mash. The idea is to drop all the rye malt at 68C (155F) to my poor Grainfather's guts and to filter it through the fair amount of rice husks / no further boiling. Souring prevention is my problem. Generally, is it worth making that "beer" to get rid of burnt stuff? The stripping run is planned on induction, not heating elements.

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
bilgriss
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1687
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:28 pm
Location: Southeast-ish.

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by bilgriss »

I have never tried to mash flour, so treat anything I say as potentially useless.

However, I cannot imagine that you will be able to filter it through a grain bed and extract liquid without the flour going along for the ride. I'm picturing a bowl of thin pancake batter. Try to pour it through a filter of any sort, and I'd think it will either clog, or you'll get pancake batter coming out the other side.

Please keep us updated on this; I'm very curious to see what you come up with.
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

bilgriss wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:39 pm Try to pour it through a filter of any sort, and I'd think it will either clog, or you'll get pancake batter coming out the other side.
Basing on my witbier experiments with that Grainfather, there's no "pillowcase" working fine :cry: scorching anyways!
Using Angel Koji for fermentation is the best way to avoid flour cake scorching (that I know of). But I don't really want to use angels this time.

bilgriss wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:39 pm Please keep us updated on this; I'm very curious to see what you come up with.
OK. But very likely, I'll try it first on 100% barley malt wort. Just to compare if it's worth to make the 3rd run according to my diagram estimations. At least, I'll get rid of the bottom scrubbling :econfused:

har druckit för mycket
erykroom
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 1:59 am

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by erykroom »

I doubt that you will be able to lauter and sparge rye that has been milled to flour. At least not without the beta enzymes and proper mashing schedule. One possibility is to ferment on the grain and just wait until all the floating particles drop out of solution. Then you can just decant the clear worth and run it as usual. It may take some time. A month or two in my experience with rye.
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

erykroom wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:36 pm A month or two in my experience with rye.
I have -20oC (-4oF) just behind the door so far. Guess it gets clear in no time in the circumstances :)

By the way, what of the beta amylase stuff you guys could advise here?

har druckit för mycket
erykroom
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 1:59 am

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by erykroom »

Seems that we have similar temperatures outside :)
One trick that the old-timers in my region used to do is add a bucket of boiled potatoes to the mash. They thought that with potatoes they get more alcohol but I guess it's purely for a smoother mouthfeel.

I have tried both ways with potatoes and without. I prefer the one with potatoes and my wife the one without. So I guess it's a personal preference

Concerning the enzymes I only have alpha so I can't comment on that.
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Got -30 in the morning and will have -18 in the noon (centigrade). The car is so far so good (knock-knock-knock) but no more tights while running (otherwise the balls tryna sing all those jinglebells melodies just on the move).
erykroom wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:10 am I have tried both ways with potatoes and without. I prefer the one with potatoes and my wife the one without.
:wtf: anyhow fermented or not, mashed or wut, beg- or end-fermentation added and so forth :?:

har druckit för mycket
erykroom
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 1:59 am

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by erykroom »

The potatoes go into the mash.
One other possibility instead of boiling the potatoes is to put the bucket of potatoes outside and let them freeze before adding them to the mash. I'm not sure what exactly happens to the starches inside a potato during freezing but afterwards they taste sweet.
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7356
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by HDNB »

i do all malt rye. about one in five maybe would filter. never have figured the trick. usually they are slimeballs.

i'd bet coming up with a steam solution or double boiler will be made easier than a slime free mash.

my best results come with heating malt and water from cold to 160* adding hi temp alpha, cooling over the course of 3 hours, to 149*, adding gluco amalaze and cooling over 4 hours (add cold water at the end) to 95* and pitching with constant agitation from beginning to end. i mix in the yeast for at least 3 hours too...seems to make a positive difference. about a 12 hour project.

it would prolly convert itself, i use the liquid enzymes since they are cheap and give me everything i can get.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

erykroom wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:19 am I'm not sure what exactly happens to the starches inside a potato during freezing
The enzymation, though. An old Russian (or Swedish? or Canadian??) trick. Thank you, Sir. But it sounds more and more like Schnaps, not Whiskey :wink:

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

HDNB wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:55 am i'd bet coming up with a steam solution or double boiler will be made easier than a slime free mash.
Sure :tired:

HDNB wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:55 am my best results come with heating malt and water from cold to 160* adding hi temp alpha, cooling over the course of 3 hours, to 149*, adding gluco amalaze and cooling over 4 hours (add cold water at the end) to 95* and pitching with constant agitation from beginning to end. i mix in the yeast for at least 3 hours too...seems to make a positive difference. about a 12 hour project.
I'll think of all those amylazes once again, thank you...

har druckit för mycket
erykroom
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 1:59 am

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by erykroom »

Thank you, Sir. But it sounds more and more like Schnaps, not Whiskey :wink:
A bucket of potatoes for every 50kg of rye. So it's a small percentage of an overall mash bill.
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

erykroom wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:59 pm A bucket of potatoes for every 50kg of rye. So it's a small percentage of an overall mash bill.
More or less like 20% of potatoes : 80% of malted rye, eh?
The everywhere Pareto Principle :?:

har druckit för mycket
Dathhu
Bootlegger
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:59 am

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by Dathhu »

I've made a couple Belgian wit biers with some flour, just for some curiosity and partially being cheap...

The flour does get mostly eaten up by the enzymes, but there is still a lot of particulate left. Works well for the beer with a one hour boil or so, but in a still it's a whole lot longer. The beer comes out to style, slightly cloudy. Tastes pretty good, adding bit of orange, coriander at the end with the right yeast it is beautiful.

A slightly cloudy wash in a still on the other hand, might start out okay, but depending on how you're running it you could be in for some scorching. Unless you're lautering the grain to clear before fermentation I'd probably advise against it. Flour in a mash doesn't settle out that well IMHO.

Rye is a different beast altogether, even more gluey than wheat.
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Dathhu wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:14 pm Rye is a different beast altogether, even more gluey than wheat.
Yepp... bubbling, souring, scorching, this kind of stuff. So, you advise to ferment mash and not wash or I'm out in the left field with it, eh?

har druckit för mycket
Dathhu
Bootlegger
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:59 am

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by Dathhu »

Sorry, wasn't quite clear in what I was saying.

I'd probably try and get as clear as possible before fermentation if you're going to try with the flour. Not an easy job though. The rice hulls might work but my guess is they'll get gummed up pretty quickly with the Rye.

Don't know how well cold crashing will do either tbh, it'll knock down yeast pretty quickly but I'm not sure about the rest of the particulate from the flour. Had some wit biers kegged up that stayed cloudy until the last glass.
Dathhu
Bootlegger
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:59 am

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by Dathhu »

Beta-glucan rests, alpha and beta amylase are probably worth looking into.

If you can do a stepped mash you might be able to pull this off. The glucan rest is at a much lower temp than a normal mash, can't remember the exact temp sorry. Would help break down some of the mess that rye makes. Some proteins are broken down, making the mash more liquid. Don't know how it would go with rye flour, haven't tried anything with heavy rye tbh.

Hope this helps you some.
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Dathhu wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:07 am Beta-glucan rests, alpha and beta amylase are probably worth looking into.

If you can do a stepped mash you might be able to pull this off. The glucan rest is at a much lower temp than a normal mash, can't remember the exact temp sorry. Would help break down some of the mess that rye makes. Some proteins are broken down, making the mash more liquid. Don't know how it would go with rye flour, haven't tried anything with heavy rye tbh.

Hope this helps you some.
It's more or less like 20 minutes at 45oC.
Yepp, gotit, thanx :wink:

har druckit för mycket
dukethebeagle120
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 723
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:08 am
Location: french canada with good vermont neighbors

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

If you got a thumper do not worry about it
Slimey or not,dump it in 5he thumper and steam it.
Rye don't worry me anymore cause steam stripping makes it easy
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

No thumper, no steam boiler 😭

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10344
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by shadylane »

VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:24 am No thumper, no steam boiler 😭
Can the boiler be stirred constantly :?:
dukethebeagle120
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 723
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:08 am
Location: french canada with good vermont neighbors

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

dukethebeagle120 wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:48 pm If you got a thumper do not worry about it
Slimey or not,dump it in 5he thumper and steam it.
Rye don't worry me anymore cause steam stripping makes it easy
Sorry vlag,i should have read the previous posts
Shady is rite
But me,i would not attempt it without steaming or agitating
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

shadylane wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:10 pm Can the boiler be stirred constantly :?:
dukethebeagle120 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:17 pm i would not attempt it without steaming or agitating
Stirring/agitation... I could heat it up for running "manually" on my induction until the temp exceeds 60C. Then should seal the lid and turn the heat slow and down. As per the GrainFather (where I still think to effect mashing, too) - it has a pump. But it's a bad agitator, in my poor experience :(

I got an additional false bottom like this and it fits well for my GF. What's more, it adsorbed about 90% of the whirlfloc'ed sediment. So, my current idea is to mash that rye starting from 70C and down to 62C (in that way, low or no heat elements usage expected). But will the "Irish moss" work at 60-62C, after all, ehm?

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Gallotannins like Brewtan B and so forth... will I make my "all rye life" easier or not?

What do you think, folks? :egeek:

One more link FYI...

har druckit för mycket
Dathhu
Bootlegger
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:59 am

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by Dathhu »

VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:49 pm Gallotannins like Brewtan B and so forth... will I make my "all rye life" easier or not?

What do you think, folks? :egeek:

One more link FYI...

Any updates on this? Did you end up doing the Rye flour mash?
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Dathhu wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:42 am Any updates on this? Did you end up doing the Rye flour mash?
Not yet... :roll: still pregnant with this idea... :shifty:

(and still awaiting the small Brewtan B parcel sent by courier)

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Being a year pregnant, my poor head gave finally birth to this Frankenstein. And since I fed myself some burnt sh!t my rye concept is changed.

It's so far "all rye malt" but fermented on the grain and by means of Angel Yellow Label (koji tech or about). Only 6 kg rye + water up to 40 l of the mash total (pretty thin, yeah). Just a week and it's done. False bottom + cotton sack + induction = everything's top-notch with my stripping run this time.

Have to say that the feints of the 2nd run are definitely poisonous (as for my nose). And the feints of the 3rd run could be definitely added to some oak aging stuff. As per "the product itself"... it's predictably intermediate between pot and fluite. Nose is OK but there are perceptible grainy tails in mouthfeel. It's the perfect base for cask or oak chips but still a bit more bread-ish than I'd wish to get for my white dog flask.

So, gonna think some more about it. Of course, my off-the-grain wort would give a "cleaner" finish but I'm not so masochistic as to squeeze hot rye with my hands still running the risk that after all it will burn.

Very likely, I need my switching to tails earlier during both 2nd and 3rd runs. Am I wrong? Right? Left? Central? Feel free to share some piece of brain on it if any :egeek:

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

... hehehe, it's transforming... definitely, it's getting transformed to a better thing... dunno... gentle flowery spices? not peppery yet, not at all... :econfused:

har druckit för mycket
OtisT
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3175
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by OtisT »

Following with interest. :-).

You commented that it was a bit “bread ish”. That is likely coming from the malt. Using more unmalted rye could help reduce that (based on my reading.). I’ve been reading up on making rye recently because I’m planning to run a 100% unmalted rye as soon as my grains arrive. Damn supply chain issues have my grains on backorder for at least a month now.

I only plan on a double distillation at this time, but I’ll keep triple distillation in mind if the spice is too much. Otis
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: all rye malt, triple distilled :: any opinion is welcome

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

OtisT wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:54 pm Following with interest. :-).
Thank you, mate! :oops:

OtisT wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:54 pm You commented that it was a bit “bread ish”. That is likely coming from the malt.
So, what the mash bill should be? Half by half, malted rye vs. bakers' rye flour?

OtisT wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:54 pm Damn supply chain issues have my grains on backorder for at least a month now.
And this what the 21st year of the 21st century actually is :wink:

OtisT wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:54 pm I only plan on a double distillation at this time, but I’ll keep triple distillation in mind if the spice is too much.
Just now I'm on my stripping run of the Gen.-2 (same 100% rye malt as before). After adding the proper feints to my low wines, gonna proof it all down to 20% AbV and wanna add the charcoal for a night or two. It's for the sake of overcoming the surplus bread, imo. And for getting rid of some fusels, of course.

har druckit för mycket
Post Reply