Grain Gelatinization

All styles of whiskey. This is for all-grain mashes.

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higgins
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Grain Gelatinization

Post by higgins »

I'm trying to understand more about gelatinization of unmalted grains so I can maximize the extraction efficiency of my mashes. In order for the starch to be released from the grain (making it accessible by the enzymes) you have to get it into a specific temperature range. But I've still got questions.
1. how long does it need to sit in that temp range (assuming a fine grind)?
2. will it gelatinize at temps higher than the given range?
3. can gelatinization and enzyme conversion take place simultaneously, or does it need to be gelatinized first?

I found several charts that show various grains gel temps, but they aren't totally consistent.
GelTemps.gif
GelTemps1.png
Bamforth_GelTemps.png

The last one was created by Dr Charles Bamforth in 2006 (https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/N ... 291fbe743a). I was an active participant in a discussion about yeast and fermentation on the Homebrew Digest (now defunct, but very active in the early 2000's) in which Dr Bamforth also participated, so I learned much from him and I respect his input.

So thinking that gelatinization of raw barley (126-138F) would occur while mashing, I did a mash a few weeks ago of 25 lbs barley malt and 25 lbs of raw barley at 132F for 1 hour, then 150F for 2 hours. My resulting efficiency was about 53% (I normally get about 75% with beer mashes). I'm thinking that the raw barley didn't undergo a complete gelatinization.

After finding Bamforth's chart, I did a similar mash yesterday (25 lbs raw barley, 30 lbs malt), but used 142F as the barley gel temp. My process was this:
mash the raw barley at 142F for 1 hour to gelatinize
add 1 gal cold water to reduce to 132F to prepare for protein rest
Add 30 lbs barley malt + 6 gal 143F water to rest 1 hour at 132F (protein rest)
Add 6 gal boiling water to rest at 152F for 2 hours (sacc rest)
Sparge with 11 gal 180F water.

The only real difference was doing the gel step 1st. It went much better this time, yielding about 76% efficiency. The fermentation is very active.

So I guess my answers to my questions would be:
1. some period of time - 1 hour seemed to work with barley
2. No
3. No, unless gel temp and mash temp are same.

Since my 132F step on the 1st mash didn't gel/convert the barley as much, and the 142F gel step on the 2nd mash DID gel/convert the barley, I tend to believe that Bamforth's temp chart is more accurate.

Any comments? (especially on the differences in the charts?)
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8Ball
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by 8Ball »

Cook your unmodified grains at 185F x 60 minutes, with high temp enzymes if you have them. Cool down to 149F and combine with your step mashed malted grains. Hold @ 149F-140F x 90-120 minutes, then cool down to pitch temp. Ferment on grain, strip, spirit, and age.
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Demy
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by Demy »

I agree with 8Ball.
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higgins
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by higgins »

Is that all you've got?
Don't think about it ... just do it this way
Cook barley like you cook corn - 180F
No interest in discussion or learning opportunities.
This newbie doesn't know anything.
Look at tried and true and don't deviate.
Dismissal of any concept that doesn't fall within the accepted paradigm?

I'm looking for a discussion on gelatinization of various raw grains and all you can do is say 'do it my way', or do it like he said?
I'm rather tired of hearing 'we know best - don't venture off the approved path'

I'm done with you all.
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Ha, you asked 3 questions, answered them yourself, got great input, and now you run away pissy?? Geez.

I will add 2 things if I can catch you on your way out the door:

1: any gel chart I’ve seen for corn is horseshit. Corn needs to be cooked at high temps, boiling if possible.

2: if you want better conversion consider liquid enzymes, they really tear it up!

Good luck.
Shouting and shooting, I can't let them catch me...
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by shadylane »

Don't run off yet, the parties hardly started :lol:
Here's a good read.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by Saltbush Bill »

higgins wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:43 pm I'm looking for a discussion on gelatinization of various raw grains and all you can do is say 'do it my way', or do it like he said?
Probably because its been done to death over the years......the people trying to help you do know how it works, where as you dont.
Why ask in the first place if you dont want answers?
Do you want 7 pages of discussion just to answer a couple of simple questions?
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:42 pm
homebrewer25 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:43 pm I'm looking for a discussion on gelatinization of various raw grains and all you can do is say 'do it my way', or do it like he said?
Probably because its been done to death over the years......the people trying to help you do know how it works, where as you dont.
Why ask in the first place if you dont want answers?
Do you want 7 pages of discussion just to answer a couple of simple questions?
SB...I think he did not want answers, nor was he really "that upset" because of the lack of a discussion on theory. Rather I think he wanted to share his problem with low conversion, post some question he asked himself, change his process ONCE, then post how his results improved and have everyone thank him for discovering something great. But then when people simply pointed out there is still an opportunity to improve, instead of trying the suggestions for himself to test, he got a little butt sore.
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by 8Ball »

homebrewer25 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:43 pm Is that all you've got?
Don't think about it ... just do it this way
Cook barley like you cook corn - 180F
No interest in discussion or learning opportunities.
This newbie doesn't know anything.
Look at tried and true and don't deviate.
Dismissal of any concept that doesn't fall within the accepted paradigm?

I'm looking for a discussion on gelatinization of various raw grains and all you can do is say 'do it my way', or do it like he said?
I'm rather tired of hearing 'we know best - don't venture off the approved path'

I'm done with you all.
Oh, there is plenty more but you are not worth the effort nor would you appreciate the response. I bet you used to be a hit at parties until you stopped being invited.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by Docstiller »

I'm taking my toys and going home!! Somewhat on topic, Does cooking corn at 185 F get acceptable gelatinization or do you have to boil it as some have said?
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by River Rat »

185 will get the job done but it takes a while.
Plain ole pot rig.
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

Docstiller wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:33 am I'm taking my toys and going home!! Somewhat on topic, Does cooking corn at 185 F get acceptable gelatinization or do you have to boil it as some have said?
Fine grind helps thing along.
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by Birrofilo »

homebrewer25 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:38 am
1. how long does it need to sit in that temp range (assuming a fine grind)?
2. will it gelatinize at temps higher than the given range?
3. can gelatinization and enzyme conversion take place simultaneously, or does it need to be gelatinized first?
1. The answer to this question should be given by the source of the graph. If you read the original paper, it will certainly say what times he's considering.

2. I think yes, and faster. And it will also gelatinize at temps much much lower, but much much slower. If you throw some spaghetti in cold water and let them sit overnight, you will find them "gelatinized" in the morning. Gelatinization is just absorption of water molecules by the starch. It happens at every temperature given time enough, but the hotter the faster. You can cook pasta at 80 °C pretty fast, you don't need boiling water. Saying that you have to gelatinize a certain cereal at a certain temperature is just a matter of practicality. You take some grains of barley, you put them in your mouth, they will gelatinize and they will be decomposed by enzymes (digestio in ore, practised by Roman soldiers during marches).

3. Gelatinization has the purpose, in theory, of favouring the work of enzymes. Enzymes will work much faster if the starch is gelatinized (which means, again, that they will work at any temperature which doesn't denature them too fast, so in a wide range of temperatures and in a wide range of pH values, it's just a question of patience). That said, I would not rule out that the two effects can happen at the same time, provided you are in a temperature range that doesn't denature the enzymes (as in your mouth). But if you want to go fast, you might want to use high temperatures (100°C) because that will gelatinize the starches fast, and then you cool and then you inoculate the enzymes. You cannot do it at the same time because there is no enzyme working at 90-100 °C, they will be "denatured" (destroyed) and when the porridge is cool they will not work.
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by bilgriss »

1. how long does it need to sit in that temp range (assuming a fine grind)?
2. will it gelatinize at temps higher than the given range?
3. can gelatinization and enzyme conversion take place simultaneously, or does it need to be gelatinized first?
1) Until it's done. Hotter = shorter, cooler = longer.
2) Yes. Practical limits will apply.
3) Yes in theory, BUT the hotter you get enzymes the more quickly they denature and become useless. It's common to add a little at a high temp to thin things out a bit while you are creating goo, but you'll need more later in the correct temperature range from a separate addition.
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by MementoMori »

Hahaha some people get so butt hurt.
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Who cooks pasta at 100C for the full 9 minutes? It comes out like a soggy limp **** lol. Bring to a boil and put it in hard once it starts to curl around the inside of the kettle turn it down to a simmer and let it bathe for the 9min - dump it into the colander capturing maybe 1/4c pasta broth then quickly put all the pasta, the 1/4c broth into the pot that’s still hot - drizzle and toss with olive oil and a little skimming off the very top liquid of your sauce and close up the pot. Heat off. Allow it to steam in its own heat 15-30min or ready to plate. Al dente? No. Soggy noodle? Nope! Hot? Yeah. Flavorful? Mmmm!

Cook that shit like you mean it!
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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Re: Grain Gelatinization

Post by bluc »

Chuck yellow label angel yeast and forget about it. Besides a quick stir once a day..
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