A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

All styles of whiskey. This is for all-grain mashes.

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Avalir
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A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Avalir »

Hey everyone,
So straight to the question at hand--what would be the best approach to lowering the ABV of my spirit run distillate so I can land in the 120-130 proof range without the need to dilute with water?

My goal, obviously, is to alleviate the need to lower ABV with water prior to aging; unfortunately water also ends up diluting the flavor of the spirit itself. Granted, my spirit run cuts consistently land at 140 proof +/- a point or two.
When I perform stripping runs, my low wines land at 60 proof. Feints I run consist of all spirit run tails and what I call the transitional heads (where the distillate passes the smell test, but not the taste test--unsure if there's an official term for that); all other heads are set aside to be refluxed because they have nothing to offer me and just accumulate and takes up to much time to distill just to be inevitably removed. I reserve a good half gallon of my wash to go towards the spirit run, plus a little extra if my feints need dilution. The objective is to have my 5 gallon charge at or below 60 proof.

I'm thinking my objective could possibly be achieved by dialing up the heat some once I've completed separating the heads, then lowering it back down once I'm nearing the end of the hearts.
My only fear is potentially causing too much slurring between the hearts and tails. I already find the tail cutoff to be the most difficult thing to identify. They all have great flavor, but when my tounge says theres something else here (not really a taste, more of a sensation), I stop.

Any thoughts on if that would be a wise plan of action to lower the spirit run ABV or any suggestions/advise on how to go about? Or even any input on increasing and/or preserving flavor?

Any and all input and feedback is appreciated.
Thank you all in advance!
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by OtisT »

Sounds like you are on the right path. I.e. You need to lower the ABV of your spirit run boiler charge to get a lower ABV collection.

Similar to your experience, my potty with 30% ABV low wines in the boiler will gives me 69% ABV output on a spirit run. (69% is the average ABV of just my cut, not including feints.) Stripping down deeper into your tails on a strip run for a lower collection ABV is one good way. Maybe closer to 25% for low 60s output. Adding some fresh ferment to your spirit run can add some flavor and will lower your ABV. Not including feints in the boiler will also keep your ABV lower, and likely won’t impact your flavor too much though it may reduce your yield.

Running your pot with more heat won’t add more good flavor. Depends on where you are starting from but it would likely cause more smearing and likely drag heads and tails into your hearts.

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Ben
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Ben »

Dilute with backset rather than water? (This question is facetious)

What type of still is this.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by NZChris »

Strip until you have the total low wines ABV you want, I run with the alcometer in the receiver. 24-27% usually gives me a heart cut around the 120-130 proof you are looking for.

Choose your heart cut by tasting samples of prospective blends, not individual jars.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Avalir »

I really appreciate the quick feedback, I'll aim to go go longer on my strips. I was half hoping that wouldnt end up being the optimal route. Going that deep, I tend to have to hussle and micromanage my cooling water temp. But oh well, gives me more motivations to upgrade the cooling system--I've had parts laying around for some time, just never have both time and energy simultaneously to do the work lol... but if all else fails, I'll add more wash--just tends to push it closer to overly full.

But to answer the still question, I run just a basic pot still for my whiskey. I have a plated column and reflux to use on other projects.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by NZChris »

I use a preheater, so the energy used for long strips is not being wasted, the demand for cooling water is much lower and there is no warmup time and energy costs for the subsequent strips.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=82520
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Oatmeal »

I had a poor conversion because of crack size on a batch of wheat and a lower starting alcohol. Maybe 4 to 5ish percent. After strip and spirit the final cut was 55%. Small yield but lots of flavor.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by acfixer69 »

Ben wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:44 am Dilute with backset rather than water? (This question is facetious)

What type of still is this.
That don't sound good it's been concentrated with everything you want out with any still.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by corene1 »

Using only a pot still I have had good results cutting the low wines with fresh mash. I try to start right at 20% ABV for the boiler charge. I have tried something different with my rum. I do the stripping run and quit collecting as the tails start to show and will add what is collected after that to my feints jug for later use. I will start collecting again when the heavy rum oils start to show up and will add that and some backset ( for rum it would be fresh dunder) back into the low wines when doing the spirit run. I have only tried this once and it seems to work well. I may try that on my next whisky mash and see what happens.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by The Baker »

Ben wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:44 am Dilute with backset rather than water? (This question is facetious)

What type of still is this.
Dunno. It seems as though diluting with backset would perhaps have the same effect
as running the still longer, thus obtaining a lower percentage of alcohol.

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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by kimbodious »

I’ve run the pot still on a spirit run low and slow and gone well past tails in to the “sweetwater” zone. When I get close to tails I start swapping jars after collecting only 300 mls per jar. If you run it slow enough you will eventually get behind the stinky tails.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Avalir »

Yeah, I've read of people adding backset into the boiler for the spirit run, but general consensus seems to be: what's the point. I've never personally tried so I can't speak from experience, but I feel like setting aside more wash would work the same as the thought behind the backest--also with the added benefits of still having something to offer the final product and saving some extra time that otherwise would have been spent stripping.

I do like that preheater idea... gives me more ideas for when I inevitably upgrade and build my next rig. Right now, I just have a system to split my condenser output into a couple smaller diameter copper coils--20' each wrapped around a chicken wire cylinder that run through a bucket of water before being dumped back into the input reservoir. It was originally designed for my reflux column and works magnificently with that, but my pot still uses larger hoses, so modifications need to be made to get efficiency to the same level with the pot still. Also have frozen 2-liter bottles that are mighty useful once I'm at the tails, but freezer space is often limited.

Sorry for the rant, but managing the cooling water temp is probably the biggest reason I dont normally get my low wines much below 30%. Just becomes a lot of bailing and replenishing with fresh cold sink water (water cost adds up when you stop being mindful).
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Avalir »

kimbodious wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:42 pm I’ve run the pot still on a spirit run low and slow and gone well past tails in to the “sweetwater” zone. When I get close to tails I start swapping jars after collecting only 300 mls per jar. If you run it slow enough you will eventually get behind the stinky tails.
Like the sweetwater term. I've just been calling it flavorwater. Lol
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Avalir wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:09 am Yeah, I've read of people adding backset into the boiler for the spirit run,
I'm interested to see some of these posts, I don't ever remember hearing of or reading of such before?
Any chance of a link or two?
The whole theory seems rather crazy to me, adding back the worst of the worst of the run. Adding back feints is a different matter.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by bluc »

Are you pot stilling? 1.5 runs may get you there. Half low wines half wash.
If a Plater drop rc water flow or add early tails.
With whiskey i find early tails is very grassy grainy. I add all this. I dont see it as hearts/tails more like hearts/ flavor/ tails. My plater likes to sit at about 88abv on most runs. If I add the grainy stuff I end up at about 85abv. I drop it with water to 65% to age.

I find if I go deeper all I get is funk. Even after 18mnths in a barrel all I get is tails flavour on the back of the flavour.
Tight cuts the spirit comes good in 6-12mnths on oak.
Yea going deeper gets "more" flavour but is it better, to me no but you maybe..
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by kimbodious »

I am now doing 1.5 spirit runs on my pot still for my wheat bran spirit. I add 20+ litres wash to 15 litres low wines for a low and slow spirit run. I collect in 300-600 ml samples throughout the entire run. If I am careful I get to the point past the funky tails where I get to the ultra low ABV ‘flavour water’ with the nice mouth feel. The ‘flavour water’ is great for proofing down. I am currently drinking some WBS that was aged on oak at 52% ABV for 12 months, it is a lovely flavourful tipple.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I’ve run backset top up for spirit run and added it to next mash too. I haven’t really done side by side comparisons. Now a days i try to reserve some fresh wash (mash beer or whatever) for top up. I certainly don’t feel like either has ruined my new make it’s just different.

When you distill spent backset (past the tails) you basically get sweetwater as product so sometimes we put some manky ass material (eg; low wines) into the boiler and good stuff comes out. Facts.

Don’t experiment with it if you don’t want to learn about it lol. Take chances and you might learn a few things. What to do / what not to do plus some how and why.

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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Avalir »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:21 am I'm interested to see some of these posts, I don't ever remember hearing of or reading of such before?
Any chance of a link or two?
The whole theory seems rather crazy to me, adding back the worst of the worst of the run. Adding back feints is a different matter.
I'd have to search for them again. Never came across deep conversations about it, more so short mention of it followed up with it getting shot down as pointless. But aside from the 'why bother' remarks, I want to say roughly 70% of people say they've tried and it makes no difference or they thought it had a negative effect, so they stopped. The other 30% was a mix of it's just something they do and don't know what it's impact is, and think it adds a little something but notes too much will ruin it.
So no real in depth conversations I recall, more criticism and asking why with no real explanation, detailed experience, or evidence. The consensus usually came down to waste of time and pointless to add to spirit runs, and if you're bothering to harvest it to just make a sour mash.

A quick google search of "adding backset to spirit run homedistiller" should pull up a handful of (likely very old) brief discussions on the topic though.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Avalir »

I really like where this seems to be going. I'm definitely going to make an attempt to run deeper in my strips--I'll probably aim for the 20-25% range in my low wines.
And though the line between the hearts and tails is rather blurred in terms of taste/flavor, I've found they definitely drink different--like it has a feint effect on your tongue and esophagus muscles. Seems to me your body can detect something there that isnt in the taste itself. Makes me not terribly enthusiastic about diving down the taily rabbit hole to lower the abv of what I'll bottle.

I really do enjoy hearing how others go about achieving their flavor profile. Seems this really attracted some flavor and quality focused all-grainers.
Not to cause a stir, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the popularity of a sugarhead or hybrid. I started on that and had months of heartache trying to figure out what I was doing wrong (when you're asking yourself how them big boy commercial distillers do it so well, you really need to rethink your recipe and process). Going all grain is hands down the greatest improvement I ever made--it's what got all the despair and thoughts of quiting out of my head.
But before I offend the sugar people, I suppose it does have its place if you're gonna mix it and/or flavor it. Not in a sipping whiskey, if you ask this guy though. It just blows my mind that sugar is so highly recommended to newcomers and praised by some when (in my case) it was the biggest roadblock in the journey to a suburb spirit.
Sorry for the tangent, just kinda spilled out of me when I started typing.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Avalir »

And actually, on a side note, I've always diluted my fresh distillate to age immediately. I'm sure if I just gave it a chance to air out and ditch the volatile compounds first, that alone would probably bring me a percent or two closer to my aging abv.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by NZChris »

When airing, some of what you are losing is flavor. Excessive airing might help when making neutral or if you are in a hurry to make something to drink, but I'm not a fan of it for making flavored product for ageing. I want the esters on my oak, not wafting out of my shed door.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by corene1 »

I have been thinking about backset and its use in a spirit run today at work. So here is a thought. Many folks use backset in a new ferment to bring more flavor to the ferment and to the finished whisky. Why is it that it wouldn't do the same thing for a spirit run? I have seen a few statements that say why should I put the dregs from the pot into my spirit run? But, if you think about it , you have a good tasting ferment and through distillation your are pulling the alcohol out but since it is a pot still you are also bringing flavors from the mash through smearing as well. Now once most of the alcohol is out what is left in the pot? I see concentrated flavors from the original mash. Just my thoughts.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by The Baker »

Corene said, ' I have seen a few statements that say why should I put the dregs from the pot into my spirit run? ...'

I have lots to learn about cuts and aging and such.
But it seem (with a pot still and probably any still) that every time you run the still you purify/ clean up
what is in the still a lot, and discard unwanted stuff with what is in the still when you are finished.
It is not as though you are concentrating the bad stuff?

And if you put in some backset a lot of that, possibly most, is discarded.

Fuzzy thoughts clumsily set out but....

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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by corene1 »

Here is a thought. Maybe after my next stripping run I will let the backset cool and taste it to see what flavors come across.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Setsumi »

I once added a good amount of a run that i was not happy with to the pot after a one and done run on a plater... maize meal and enzymes.

Warning, let the backset (pot ale?) cool first.

Right from the start i was in tails. I stopped after the 3rd 300ml collection.

Dilute with water or fresh mash/wash if you want a drop to drink.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Ben »

I have the backset from yesterday's run sitting in the pot now. I am going to use part of it for a sour mash, but I will give it a sip and see how I feel about it.

Most of the stuff you don't want to taste comes through in the fores, heads and part of the tails run. The late tails taste ok so maybe it is worth using. I know there is some ethanol remaining, I killed the run when the output hit ~1.025. There also must be some higher alcohols left in it based on the take off temp. Don't know what those taste like, but there is a sure way to find out.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Ben »

The backset is largely flavorless, and a little sour. Other than mashing with it, or using it to dilute another run I don't think its for me.

This was from an all grain, full sparge, 70% corn, 20% rye, 10% barley malt. YMMV.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Archee72 »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:21 am
Avalir wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:09 am Yeah, I've read of people adding backset into the boiler for the spirit run,
I'm interested to see some of these posts, I don't ever remember hearing of or reading of such before?
Any chance of a link or two?
The whole theory seems rather crazy to me, adding back the worst of the worst of the run. Adding back feints is a different matter.
From Odin in his initial post on his cornflake whiskey thread…

I stripped it slowly, making a small fores/heads cut. Collected down to 10 abv. Got me 6liters of 30 abv. Added some backset, then did the spirit run. Collected hearts at 63 abv. Diluted to 50%.am sipping it as we speak. Darn good!
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by NormandieStill »

Avalir wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:09 am Sorry for the rant, but managing the cooling water temp is probably the biggest reason I dont normally get my low wines much below 30%. Just becomes a lot of bailing and replenishing with fresh cold sink water (water cost adds up when you stop being mindful).
For my first reflux run (being as it was going to be long and I didn't want to pour that much tap water down the drain), I set up in my shed and ran the pump in my 1000L rainwater barrel. I don know if IBC containers are easily available in your part of the world, nor how much it rains there, but here my IBC container fills in about 2 days of typical rainy weather and they're easily available second hand. For about 100EUR I can get the container and a cheap immersion pump. No more faffing with sink fulls of tap water and worrying about the water bill.
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Re: A More Flavorful Whiskey - Lowering Spirit Run ABV

Post by Avalir »

Haven't checked in for a couple days. Good to see people are still giving their thoughts when it comes to flavorful whiskey.

As a response on the airing note; my typical process is just to let my distillate sit in open jars at room temperature for the duration of the strip and spirit runs. That's the extent of my "airing out" as i practice it today. From the spirit run, I dilute, then put on wood.
Glad you commented on the cons of excessive airing. I'll stick to the lowering charge abv approach.

I'll begin mashing for a new batch tonight (64% corn, 20% barley malt [10% pale, 10% vienna], 8% rolled oats, 8% whole wheat--in case anyone was curious; once I get around to purchasing rye malt, I'll incorporate it too). My goal will be to bring the charge down to 25% for the next spirit run. Haven't taken the abv of my feints collection yet (shouldn't be too bad, it's almost entirely tails), but if needed I'll dilute with wash (wash should be roughly 6-7%, depending on how much sparge water is used--grains go to the chickens). I definitely need to upgrade my boiler, 5.8 gallon capacity fills up quick, even at the 30% charge I was running.

Also noticed mention of collecting rain water for cooling. I'm definitely not opposed, just dont have a practical way to pump it to the still. I'll hopefully begin building a house soon enough and the lady has agreed to me having a specified brewery/distillery room, so that will become a much more viable option--just have it right outside the wall and have it pumped right to me.
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