Cloudy and not so great

[CoogeeBoy]

So little update and another further question - sorry
So literally apart from head space/oxygen in the bottle that is only difference,

Could the oxygen / oxidisation be keeping the half full bottle clear?

Any advice on clearing without touching with any neutral as i feel its right on the cusp, and im not keen on adjusting flavour - Would a temperature increase help, could i try and air, could it turn back to clear with time etc etc.

Thanks again,

How about taking one of the cloudy bottles and splitting it into 2 half bottles. Leave it for a few days / week and see if you get clear spirits.

That might go someway to answering your question as to if there is some difference in settling or the effect of oxygen.

Keep us updated will you please? I am about to do a gin run tomorrow.

All the best

[NZChris]

As I demonstrated with my Sunset Gin, the density difference of differing ABVs is enough to prevent layers mixing for months. if the batch wasn't mixed as well as you thought it was when you bottled it, the clear bottle might be a higher abv than the cloudy bottles.

[BusyHive]

So little update and another further question - sorry

I re-ran this batch minus 1 bottle, as I think it was actually more down to personal taste that i wasn't keen on, as a pose to anything wrong with the gin itself.

Anyway - Went for a Odins easy gin batch - Fantastic outcome - I really like the taste...

One question i have though - I followed Odin's recipe to the exact letter and when finished i proofed to 45% ABV using some distilled water. This turned out perfectly clear (I did a test on a few mil first this time - Im learning... ) so i bottled and was really chuffed with both the taste and look of the spirit -

I did a 4l maceration batch of Odins and output wise I ended up with 3 x full 750ml bottles and 1 left over that was about 50% full - After dilution and bottling I put them into my kitchen larder (A coolish cupboard prob about 15 deg c)

So after about 4-5 days of resting i noticed something: The 3 x bottles that were full have turned hazy, the 1 bottle that was right next to them in the larder that was around 50% full was still perfectly clear.

Any ideas on whats going on?

Im not keen on touching them as far as with more neutral as the taste is just right for me, but just wanting to understand why the full ones have hazed over where as the half full one has not. (Same batch, same dilution as was diluted with the rest in a jug, and same resting place, temp etc, same type of bottle)

So literally apart from head space/oxygen in the bottle that is only difference,

Could the oxygen / oxidisation be keeping the half full bottle clear?

Any advice on clearing without touching with any neutral as i feel its right on the cusp, and im not keen on adjusting flavour - Would a temperature increase help, could i try and air, could it turn back to clear with time etc etc.

20200702_101122[1].jpg


Thanks again,

Hi Loc,

When you say you followed Odin's Easy Gin to the exact letter, did you "Take 1 liter of 43% neutral (made from the hearts of a BW, fractionated all bran, etc. fermentation)" - meaning did you do a stripping run, followed by a spirit run and then take a heart cuts from that to make your 1L of 43% neutral?

Did you use 1L or 4L on this run? I use a T500 and 1L is perfectly fine as it's an indirectly heated boiler. I've done many of OEG with 1L without any problems. Your only taking 410mL out of a 1L charge.

How fast did you do the gin run on the macerated spirit? Slow and steady with a pot still, like a spirit run? With a T500 and allembic pot head, you really need to use a power controller. I dial mine down to about 77V out of 240V and the take-off is right in the sweet spot.

If you're going to do OEG (which is a great place to start) I'd also encourage you to read the entire OEG thread, as there's a lot of good information in there that's not included in post #1.

As for the louching, do take the advice to add some 43% hearts neutral to clear it. You'll be surprised how little it takes to clear it and a small amount is not going to impact the flavor that much.

Cheers,

John

[Locini1]

Hi John,

Yea when i said i followed Odins recipe to the letter i was referring to botanical ingredients, maceration, and spirit run. I already knew i didn't have the perfect neutral.

So the difference in mine was I actually used some of the original gin that i didn't quite like (Personal preference) the taste of (Detailed at the start of this thread) and I re distilled it with the T500 reflux column to strip as much flavour as i could, (I already knew i wasn't going to get it perfect)

I then added decent "actual stripped and spirit run neutral" to top this up to 4l @ 43% for maceration, the neutral was a bit of a mish mash and i knew and understood that going into this, and was quite prepared for a potential failed batch.

Its worked well though the final taste is awesome... Main thing so not complaining ... WIll be interesting to see the difference next run with actual clean neutral, see if it goes up or down (In my opinion) taste wise. The pre run gin with the higher botanical bill may easily have gone either way and Added or detracted to this recipe - Time will tell. Im happy though...

Yes mine was a 4l run as a pose to a 1l run so everything was x 4 apart from the final volume (I cut 100ml earlier that suggested by Odin as was starting to taste tails) i had this in 2 x 50ml jars and swithered for ages but decided in the end not to add.
SO I did:
10ml Heads removed (Odin suggests not to increase this until over 10l batch)
1500ml collected as a pose to 1600ml
300ml worth of tails discarded (Yes i went a bit over recommended collection volume as was just experimenting with the tails and further learning for myself)

I actually contacted Still spirits a few weeks back and they told me the minimum recommended volume for the boiler was never to run it under 2 litres liquid level. That's why i had it in my head that my minimum charge would always have to be 4 litres if dropping in anything in the ~40%abv range - Its interesting to hear you are successfully running with a 1l charge... Do you not have any problems with the orange peel etc scorching especially at the end of run? Would imagine the bottom of the boiler barely even covered in liquid at that volume?

I have integrated an SCR into my setup also, so can keep it nice and steady so yes this was used for my run.

The main point of my last post was to see why the spirit had gone from perfectly clear to cloudy after already being clear when bottling and then all of a sudden resting and going from clear to cloudy.

I think NZChris has answered this. The 50% full bottle was the last I poured out of the mixing jug (IE the bottom of the jug) so has maybe not mixed 100% properly, even although i did give it a really good stir together when in the proofing jug... I will make sure i spend extra time on this next time.

Coogeeboy - Yes i will experiment with splitting with this and let everyone know, im away to split a full bottle into 2 half bottles now and will report back either way. Am also going to try and move a bottle somewhere a bit warmer see if this has an effect.

Bottom line is tastes really well - Im not all that fussed about the clarity - Just an interesting one as couldn't quite get my head round the difference between them and it really confused me.

As always thanks to all you guys for the help, and discussion points... Really helpful for a beginner like me

[BusyHive]

Hi Loc,

Yeah, SS would be right if you're running the boiler at full power - 2000W, but I'm only running it at about 1/3 power so it's fine.

As for scorching, the first few 1L runs I did I removed the citrus peel before the run as it can be too overpowering if distilled. Other folks place it in the vapor path instead. My last few runs I've just cut down the citrus peel to ~0.25 g/L and toss the lot into the boiler and distill it. Odin does mention that in the OEG thread. Nothing scorches - I just rinse the boiler out with hot water after the run and I'm done, done, onto the next one. (Sorry, Foo Fighters fan here)

But seriously, congrats on getting a decent gin already. If it tastes good to you, that's all that matters, right?

Gin is a bit of an art form and it's definitely a learning curve. Don't forget to keep some to age for 5 weeks before you change anything, the flavors definitely balance out if you give them time.

Cheers,

John

[zed255]

I did a batch of OEG and what looked like cloudy product was actually some of the oils clinging to the glass of the vessel it was taking its five week rest in, the actual gin was clear. Once bottled from the larger vessel all looks fine. I'm not saying this is your issue, but worth a close look to see of the bottle has a bit of a film inside. Either way, it is only a presentation issue. If the gin tastes good, then it's good gin.

[Locini1]

Very interesting John,

I am definitely going to try a smaller run on your recommendation, will dial it back on the SCR and see how I go - Thanks for the info.

Zed,
Also good info to bare in mind - This isn't the case for mine as i just decanted 1 full bottle into two halfs and both the original and newly decanted bottles both have same level of louche.

So my experiment moving forward is as follows:

1 x Full 750ml bottle (untouched since bottling) staying in the larder cupboard @ approx 15 deg c
1 x Half bottle (just decanted) staying in the larder cupboard @ approx 15 deg c

1 x Full 750ml bottle (untouched since bottling) moved into a warmer airing cupboard @ approx 25 deg c
1 x Half bottle (just decanted) moved into a warmer airing cupboard @ approx 25 deg c

Im going to give the small half full bottles a mild shake each day to see if the oxidisation plays any factor in this.

Will post update results in a few days.

Its prob the mixing as NZChris has already said - but doing this we can also see if temperature and oxidisation has any factor to play here.

[OtisT]

Locini,
Putting the same batch in multiple bottles and seeing some cloud up and some not? Strange for sure.

My guess is that the one clear bottle was clean. The others were not, and had something in then that was a nucleation point for the Gin. Small particles that the oils could collect on to the point it was visible. Just a guess.

Otis

[Locini1]

Possible Otis,

I didn't go to the extent of using a bottle brush (This may be the error), but they were fully cleaned with soapy dish water first (Shaken vigorously) then dunked in some home brew steriliser for 15m for good measure, finally rinsed well with clean tap water and drained. That's my usual procedure with any glassware that isn't visibly soiled for home made stuff jams, wines, spirits etc etc...

So although in my case i would say minimal chance, still ofc possible.

It really is crazy (In a good way) the things you don't think of, almost take for granted, that people on here make you think about in detail, in the endeavour for problem solving for you... Hats off and another great shout/suggestion.

[Locini1]

So test results are in... Already

2 x bottles on the right were in the ones moved to the warmer cupboard (Only a few hrs ago) circa 25 deg c
2 x bottles on the left were the ones left in the cool larder. circa 15 deg c

Looks like its temperature related, when i bottled them it was a warm day 23-24 deg c and i think cooling them in the larder cupboard caused them to louche, i now think the reason for the half bottle not to have any louche was to do with it being placed in front of the 3 other bottles (full ones were placed at the back of the cupboard so were closer to the back brick wall of the cupboard = cooler

The half bottle was in front of them so probably got more heat from the house / room temperature.

Question solved - I think - Thanks again all...

[NZChris]

Look up Chill Filtering.

Bombay filter their gins, but they haven't said how they do it. I'd guess it's chill filtered. I wouldn't bother doing it myself because I'm not commercial and the louche doesn't bother me.

[Alcophile]

Look up Chill Filtering.

Bombay filter their gins, but they haven't said how they do it. I'd guess it's chill filtered. I wouldn't bother doing it myself because I'm not commercial and the louche doesn't bother me.

I'd rather Not filter all those lovely flavours out!
A slight louche doesn't trouble me
Interesting experiment!

[Yummyrum]

..ive had it happen to me once.
Two bottles from same gin batch.....one cloudy and one clear......only ever happened the once.

Me too Salty ,put it dow to not washing out my bottles very well
I suspect the one on the left I had been using HBS gin essence in before while the one on the right was a newly emptied Gordon's Gin bottle .

Regardless , it tasted good

[NZChris]

I don't wash my gin bottles unless they are new to my shed or had something really nasty in them, like my Brussels Sprout gin

With two bottles looking so different, I'd be tempted to check the abvs of each with the narrowest range alcometer I had. With identical abvs, incomplete mixing before bottling might explain the difference.

If you have tried diluting a sample to find out how much neutral you need to add to clear a gin, you may have noticed how little it takes to go from cloudy to clear when you get to the 'tipping point'. The way I see it, the 'fault' in cloudy gin is that the flavors are concentrated and need diluting if you want it clear. When I dilute my gins to where they are clear on a cold day, they start to taste more like the commercial gins that I have samples of and the bottles last in the drinks cabinet for a lot longer.

[Yummyrum]

With identical abvs, incomplete mixing before bottling might explain the difference.

I won’t rule that out as being a possibility . It was one of my early attempts and I have realised since that gin takes a lot more mixing than say Rum .

[Wozza]

Keep us updated will you please? I am about to do a gin run tomorrow.

All the best

Just noticed the forum name. I assume that's Coogee in Sydney? In which case I'm BondiBoy...

And just finished my fifth gin run so far. Started with OEG in my 20L tea urn pot still and been slowly changing ingredients. This last one I added some angelica root. Seems to give it a slight earthy smell as compared to the last one. The citrus I'm using grapefruit and lemon. Just about to start macerating a sixth and I might try some lemongrass in it.

The whole family is keeping tabs on me to find out when the next run is due. They all love it. My son's MIL even tricked up a Bombay Gin label to read Bondi Gin. Getting some printed.

We'll have to get together for a tasting session!

[NZChris]

The citrus I'm using grapefruit and lemon.

I've recently done another Grapefruit Gin, first for years, very nice in a G&T with a squeeze of grapefruit juice and a twist of the peel

It hasn't gone cloudy.

[CoogeeBoy]

Keep us updated will you please? I am about to do a gin run tomorrow.

All the best

Just noticed the forum name. I assume that's Coogee in Sydney? In which case I'm BondiBoy...

We'll have to get together for a tasting session!

Now you are talking!

I did take some samples to a cafe the other day and gave some friends a taste, was my fruit liqueurs though, not gin.

Quick question, you used a 20l urn, how much OEG did you put in it / start with and what ABV did you have in the urn before you started your distillation?

I very much look forward to a tasting one day.
Keep safe

[Wozza]

The citrus I'm using grapefruit and lemon.

I've recently done another Grapefruit Gin, first for years, very nice in a G&T with a squeeze of grapefruit juice and a twist of the peel

It hasn't gone cloudy.

I noticed that they were selling tangelos in the local s'market a few days ago (cross between a tangerine and a pomelo). Tangerines were in the original OEG but I can't find them anywhere. Might sample a tangelo this weekend and try them. Either that or grapefruit again with some lemongrass.

[Wozza]

Keep us updated will you please? I am about to do a gin run tomorrow.

All the best

Just noticed the forum name. I assume that's Coogee in Sydney? In which case I'm BondiBoy...

We'll have to get together for a tasting session!

Now you are talking!

I did take some samples to a cafe the other day and gave some friends a taste, was my fruit liqueurs though, not gin.

Quick question, you used a 20l urn, how much OEG did you put in it / start with and what ABV did you have in the urn before you started your distillation?

I very much look forward to a tasting one day.
Keep safe

I do 15L washes (simple Birdwatcher version). I put each 15L (at about 10%) in the 20L boiler and strip flat out to get 5L at about 30%. Throw what's left as there's not much alcohol left. Takes a couple of hours each time.

When I have 3 x 5L I put all that back in and do a spirit run and do cuts to get about 2.7L at about 70% (the rest goes into a feints jar). That takes about 3 hours.That gets me about 4.5L at 43%.

I do the whole process about once a week so I'm constantly topping up my stock of what I need for the gin.

I then macerate 7L with the usual suspects at 43% for two weeks. I need 7L because the electric element would be exposed at around 3.6L so when I distill the gin it's 7L in and I take 3L out at about 68%. Tap water to dilute that to close to 5L at 42%.

All goes into a 5L demijohn and into the wardrobe for 4 weeks. Version IV went in yesterday and I'll start version V macerating tomorrow.

Each one has been a bloody winner. The temptation is to start throwing in lots of different botanicals each time but I'm restricting myself to one change per version. Angelica root went in last time (6g in the 7L). I really need a mini still (2L?) to run different recipes before stilling a 5L batch. Maybe the same recipe for the next one plus lemongrass or maybe cardamon.

Any spare spirit and I'm trying different things for shit and giggles. My Amaretto was a huge hit and I need to get my stocks up to make a decent batch of that.

Damn, could use a g and t right now, but Tues - Thurs are my dry days. Roll on tomorrow.

[BusyHive]

Hey Wozza,

I do pretty much the same as you, except I do 4 x 25L ferments. Gives me about 7.5L of 93% neutral after each spirit run. Plenty enough to experiment with.

I'm doing the one botanical at a time gin development as well, up to batch 12 now and learning more with each ingredient. I too did a batch with angelica last night, so can't wait a few weeks to see how it comes out.

Kinda lucky for me, I use a Mangrove Jacks 25L boiler which is indirectly heated, as well as a power controller. I can get away with 1L macerated batches at about 1/4 power (2000W boiler).

With my spare neutral I'm developing a cold brew coffee liqueur which is up to version 6 now, slowly getting there. My wife also just put on a Limoncello and will put on an Arancello tomorrow.

If you blokes north of the border ever let us Victorians up there, would be great to catch up for a group taste test one day.

Cheers,

John

[Wozza]

If you blokes north of the border ever let us Victorians up there, would be great to catch up for a group taste test one day.

Cheers,

John

Sounds like a great idea, John. Might be some time yet though...

Did another gin last night in my micro still on the stove top. Used OEG as a basis but cranked up the amounts of botanicals by about a third and put them into 1.5L of neutral and left it for 3 or 4 days.

There had been some warnings about leaving the citrus peel in the still (one orange and one lemon) as it might go cloudy - maybe NZChris said something about it? But what the hell, let's see how much flavour I can crank out of it.

Collected close to 900ml and it had just started to go cloudy. Was about 65% and as soon as I diluted it to 43%...Bam. Cloudy as all get out. I tried adding some more neutral but no go. But tons of flavour. I try to keep off the evil drink midweek but I'll try it with a decent tonic on Friday (maybe my recently produced home made version) and see how we go.

The idea was to boost the citrus enough so maybe I could blend it with some earlier versions. A gin 'essence' if you like. I'll try that as well on the weekend. But maybe down to the two dollar shop later to see if they have something I can use as a gin basket (like a steamer) to keep the citrus out of the liquid abut in the vapour path to perhaps prevent the oils coming though. Or maybe dry out the peel first?

Want to try some gin experiments with cardomon and maybe pepper then.

[NZChris]

I'm not at all surprised it went cloudy at 900ml, that's far further than I ever go.

I did a 1.5l run yesterday, 15ml foreshot, then stopped at 660ml. Crystal clear diluted to 45%.

[NZChris]

BTW, I run with the peel in the boiler or the basket, not in the compost bin.

[Wozza]

I'm not at all surprised it went cloudy at 900ml, that's far further than I ever go.

I did a 1.5l run yesterday, 15ml foreshot, then stopped at 660ml. Crystal clear diluted to 45%.

Dammit. What was I doing collecting so much! It should be 400ml per litre and I had 1.5L so it should have been 600ml. The first one I did at those volumes came out fine.

And I've done the same thing on this run. What an idiot...

I'll try another in a day or two as I've got some neutral left. And I'll knock back the citrus. A clear run on that one and I'll try adding some cardomon to the one after that.

[bluedog]

@NZChris Just skimmed through this post for the first time, and that sunset gin is downright gorgeous.