Odin's gone wrong

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Synaptoman
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Odin's gone wrong

Post by Synaptoman »

Hi All,

This run of mine has turned into a bit of an experiment. I am fully prepared for the incoming flames, but here goes.

With 2 pretty successful 4L Odin's Easy Gin runs under my belt, complacency set it in and noob mistakes were made.

My standard run consists of a 20L Birdwatchers Sugar Wash stripping run through my 2" reflux column on a 30L beer keg. I dump 175ml of foreshots and heads and end with about 1.75L of 86% ABV. I add 1.75L of bottled water and end up with 3.5L of 43% in which I mascerate the standard Odin's botanicals for one week, strain and then a slow spirit run in potstill mode. I repeat the bottled water dilute and end up with a very tasty, clear gin which has been appreciated by friends and family.

Until this time !!!

Like an absolute idiot I mascerated the botanicals in the full strength 86% ABV and after 6 days noticed that the spirit was a LOT darker than usual. Realizing my mistake I added bottled water to prepare for a spirit run and ended up with a "mess" of cloudy liquid, which I strained and ran through the still hoping for a miracle.

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Everything looked good coming off the still during the spirit run and tasted fine. The moment of truth was the addition of the water to get down to 43% !!!

Sure enough, it came out REAL cloudy. It didn't taste too bad though.

Seeing that I'd messed it up, I decided to experiment. I ran about 750ml through an activated carbon filter with an interesting result.

Image

My questions are as follows;
  • Chemically, what exactly happened?
  • Shall I dump the whole lot, put it back through the still or leave it as is?
Sorry for the long post and thank you for reading.

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Re: Odin's gone wrong

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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Setsumi »

did you do a tail cut on your spirit run? the cloudy spirit is because of oils... both in tails an botanicals. higher proof may fix it if you like the taste. or run it on high reflux and cut for tails early.

but i am not big on gin.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

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Hi Setsumi,

I don't really get much tails on my still. It runs from 88% down to about 80% through my parrot, the temperature starts bouncing all over the place and I just cut it. I'm a total noob here but my gut feel is the extra oils present because of my botanical masceration in 86%. I wont make THAT mistake again.


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Later

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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Temp bouncing? What are you heating and controlling it with?

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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Expat »

Synaptoman wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:16 am It runs from 88% down to about 80% through my parrot, the temperature starts bouncing all over the place and I just cut it.
How are you controlling the power input for your still?

Based on the picture, it looks like you were running a new recipe rather than Odin's, correct?

In any case, dilution with clean neutral at the target ABV will correct the haze (correctly known as louching), but to be clear this isn't required, so long as it tastes good.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

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I heat with a gas range. When I see first steam out of outlet and temp to 90 C , I turn on my water to condenser and gas down to 3/4. It then stays in a very close range of 79 - 83 C for the whole run without any interventions. It then "bounces" as high as 99 C and as low as 50 C and I call it a day.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Where are you measuring the temp? Bouncing like that isn't typical - Somethings gotta be amiss? Hard to tell by the foto but is that copper a "cross-flow" reflux condenser?

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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Synaptoman »

Where are you measuring the temp? Bouncing like that isn't typical - Somethings gotta be amiss? Hard to tell by the foto but is that copper a "cross-flow" reflux condenser?
I measure temps right at the top of the column.

Yes, its a 1" copper cross-flow reflux condenser on top of a 2" Stainless Column.

I quite like the "bounce". It's a clear sign that the run is finished.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Expat »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:51 amHard to tell by the foto but is that copper a "cross-flow" reflux condenser
Yeah, it looks to be one of those old-school pipe through column designs; not a true crossflow.

Edit: given that you're using a continuous heat source, the bounce is likely reflux dripping on your thermo probe.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Setsumi »

how is it packed?.... and do you have 2 places where reflux tubes go through? seems you have a cross flow just above the stainless and i guess you have another at the top. what diameter pipe? all the questions have nothing to do with your cloudy spirits.. or maybe... just want to see if we cannot help to get you to a better reflux.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Synaptoman »

I pack the stainless column with copper scrubbers.

At the top the 2 condenser pipes go through. They are 15mm. Water in at bottom, out at top.

Stainless reflux is 2" (50mm). Top copper reflux is 28mm (just over 1")
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

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Synaptoman turn off the tappatalk Advert.....we do not allow that on the forum.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Setsumi »

what i am trying to get at is it seems that you have a reflux pipe just above the stainless pipe. then a long copper section at least as long as your product confenser and then another reflux cross pipe. i would suggest only running with the top reflux condenser. the bottom one is shortening your reflux column.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Synaptoman »

My still is a modular setup that I can setup, breakdown and store in under 10 minutes using tri-clamps etc.. Here are the individual components (except the keg).

Image

I am going to try the clearing the cloudy distillate with clean 43% ABV as recommended and if that doesn't work, I will put it through the still again.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by NZChris »

Putting it back through the still is probably the worst option.

Why do you want 43%?
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48594
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Synaptoman »

Hi NZChris

You suggested ;
Dilute it with more neutral.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48594&start=600#p7543415
I'm starting to favour running it back through the still. The citrus smell (and taste) is rather overpowering after a few days, especially the portion I put through the carbon filter.

I'll have some more neutral within a week. Have 40L of wash almost ready to distill.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Odin »

Listen to NZChris first. If that doesn't fix it, you can always rerun it.

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Re: Odin's gone wrong

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Will do and hopefully report back with good news.

Thanks a stack guys !!!
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

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Synaptoman wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:05 am I'm starting to favour running it back through the still. The citrus smell (and taste) is rather overpowering after a few days, especially the portion I put through the carbon filter.
Noticed that you appear to be skipping the penultimate step in the recipe e.g.
"Give it up to 5 weeks rest in a glass demi-john;"
The rest period is important, in my experience it allows the citrus time to mellow.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Odin »

Good addition Expat. Give it time. Like a good friend of mine said: nothing as difficult as adding some patience to a bottle. But add neutral first to lift the haze. Then let it settle.

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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by bluedog »

As far as why it happened, I would guess that you extracted way more of the alcohol soluble oils from your botanicals than previously because the proof was much higher. Then more of those oils came through in your final run and caused the cloudiness (louching). I'd go with dilution and time as already mentioned.

Some distillers do this on purpose. Do a super high concentration botanical run, and then add nuetral to maximize their yield only doing a single run. I think it's called a two shot or something like that.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by NZChris »

I often run with five times the amount of botanicals needed for a single run, then dilute with neutral when bottling. I can make it up misty, or clear, my choice.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by MDH »

The cloudiness are volatile terpenes which have a low solubility in water, but a high solubility in ethanol.

There are a few ways you can do this:

-Dilute the gin with water to <20% ABV, store it at almost freezing temperatures and do not move it. The terpenes will settle and accumulate. Decant the diluted spirit and then distill it again to regain strength. This process can take up to weeks.
-Chill the spirit to drinking proof and filter through cellulose.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Royco »

Synaptoman I just had the same experience. But I macerated at 65% and after a week diluted to 43% and the whole thing turned to almost the identical colour and cloudiness as yours.
I have a further problem; I just replaced the copper inner tube of my Liebig with SS (I know, but it's a long story). Maybe I didn't clean the rig properly as i thought SS did not need as thorough a cleaning as copper, but now I have 12L of spirit with a metallic taste. I tried filtering a sample through a carbon filter to no avail.

a) Will re-distilling remove the metallic taste? And...
b) Will it remove the cloudiness?

Site Mod please steer me in the right direction if this is posted the wrong way!
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by NZChris »

There's nothing wrong with SS for a gin still condenser, mine is SS. How did you clean it?

How do you know the metallic taste isn't from an ingredient?
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Royco »

NZChris wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:05 pm There's nothing wrong with SS for a gin still condenser, mine is SS. How did you clean it?

How do you know the metallic taste isn't from an ingredient?
Thanks, but i have no idea as it was my first BW and first in general using TP.
I cleaned the still and newly rebuilt ss Liebig using citric acid to soak the tubes and copper scrubs and coil.
Did not then do a sac run so maybe this is the problem? Would TP give any flavour? BW is so widely used so it shouldn't.
Also, it fermented down to 0990, the lowest I've ever done.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Expat »

Royco wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:32 am
NZChris wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:05 pm There's nothing wrong with SS for a gin still condenser, mine is SS. How did you clean it?

How do you know the metallic taste isn't from an ingredient?
Thanks, but i have no idea as it was my first BW and first in general using TP.
I cleaned the still and newly rebuilt ss Liebig using citric acid to soak the tubes and copper scrubs and coil.
Did not then do a sac run so maybe this is the problem? Would TP give any flavour? BW is so widely used so it shouldn't.
Also, it fermented down to 0990, the lowest I've ever done.
This is your answer. Toss that garbage and start a fresh batch.
A sac run is essential for safety.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by NZChris »

Was the condenser likely to be contaminated with flux or machine oils?

If not, a vinegar and sacrificial alcohol run wouldn't make much difference. A clean with detergent should be enough.
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Re: Odin's gone wrong

Post by Synaptoman »

Just a report back on the cloudy gin. Took the advise of the experts on this thread and slowly added 43% neutral to a 200 ml sample of the cloudy distillate and after adding between 75-100 ml of the neutral, the gin suddenly cleared !!!

Also, the taste is actually not that bad now and a lot less overpowering. Still plenty of juniper and citrus.

Thanks guys.

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