Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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Hi, I was looking at Tom Cat Gins and found very little on it on the forum. SO, I thought I would start a topic on it here:

I was passed the following for reference https://youtu.be/w827WkP-AVc and there are definitely a couple dos and donts contained and I do have a nice Tom Cat Gin purchased which I really enjoy and would love to approximate. SO I of course would be very interested in any advice folks here might provide.

In short, here is my plan:

- Ferment and strip a batch or two of Ted's FFV
- Infuse the low wines with botanicals a-la OEG (I need to research what botanicals would work best)
- Distill (pot-still)
- Keep the resultant distillate at ~120proof
- Age with oak chips
- Report back.

Any warnings or words of advice here as I get going?
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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Read everything you can find about it online. Using Google, I found quite a few clues in a few minutes.

What botanicals can you pick out when you taste it? What type of honey do you taste?
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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I think I need to "refresh" my memory of it :lol: .... it's at the cottage. I will need to give it a try this weekend.
Most of the material I have found online is from Caledonia Spirits... and that is the Gin I have.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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NZChris wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:31 am Read everything you can find about it online. Using Google, I found quite a few clues in a few minutes.

What botanicals can you pick out when you taste it? What type of honey do you taste?
Hmmmm. From what I read online, the honey seems to be added after the fact like a sweetener. Is that how you read it as well?
Also, it seems to have very few botanicals.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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I thought honey was a sweetener. It might have caramel too. It’s not on wood for long.
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NZChris wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:12 pm I thought honey was a sweetener. It might have caramel too. It’s not on wood for long.
I agree on the caramel too. So how is that done? Do you just add honey to the distillate before putting on wood? or is it infused before distilling. That's my question.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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I add honey and caramel after aging. I don’t know what they do.
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Ok. Then I will assume I don't have to do some sort of honey wash.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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If it’s sweet, it’s probably safe to assume the honey was added after aging. I’ve used it a couple of times and never managed to get it cleared, which didn’t bother me.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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NZChris wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:46 pm If it’s sweet, it’s probably safe to assume the honey was added after aging. I’ve used it a couple of times and never managed to get it cleared, which didn’t bother me.
My research so far suggests that the honey would be boiled in water and then added through a coffee filter. Does that make sense? Or did you try this already? If you don't mind, I would like to keep this 'discovery discussion' going here, and if we end up with a nice result, we can capture it as a more concise procedure.

I am definitely going to refresh my taste bud memories of that Tom Cat Gin I have on the weekend....and I will have it on hand when I return home. 8)
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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I hadn’t heard that trick before. Got any details?

I’ve never tasted Tom Cat, but I have had a go at making Old Tom. Sweetened it with simple sirup, but I could try honey next time.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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NZChris wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:39 am I hadn’t heard that trick before. Got any details?

I’ve never tasted Tom Cat, but I have had a go at making Old Tom. Sweetened it with simple sirup, but I could try honey next time.
It was in here related to infusing whiskey that I saw reference:

https://boozedandinfused.com/tag/honey/

... so nothing detailed. More next week.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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So I tested the Tom Cat Gin I had on the weekend (and brought it back home for further research 8) ) and it definitely has a discernable honey essence to it. Also, it is bottled at 50%abv which I imagine would help keep the honey in solution. The honey used is raw unpasteurized honey.
I really won't have much to add until I start to play with it. I need a couple stripped batches of Ted FFV macerated with Juniper and whatever else I pitch in so it is a few weeks away. I will keep reading along the way. Any learnings will go here.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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Don’t add botanicals to low wines unless you don’t mind throwing out their flavours with the heads and tails.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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What does your alcometer say the abv is?
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NZChris wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:55 am What does your alcometer say the abv is?
45%. Why would that be different?
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NZChris wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:52 am Don’t add botanicals to low wines unless you don’t mind throwing out their flavours with the heads and tails.
hi, I was going to initially follow OEG as a method of infusing the juniper & botanicals. You recommend otherwise? vapour-infusion? perhaps I misunderstand your point.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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Rrmuf wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:16 am
NZChris wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:55 am What does your alcometer say the abv is?
45%. Why would that be different?
The sugars in the honey. You might be able to calculate how much honey they used from the difference.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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It sounds like you’re intending to put your botanicals into TFFV Low Wines. You won’t find that recommendation in OEG, and for good reasons.
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NZChris wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:33 am It sounds like you’re intending to put your botanicals into TFFV Low Wines. You won’t find that recommendation in OEG, and for good reasons.
So, specific to TFFV then? I thought it was as close to a neutral like Birdwatchers or Wineo's.
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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NZChris wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:28 am
Rrmuf wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:16 am
NZChris wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:55 am What does your alcometer say the abv is?
45%. Why would that be different?
The sugars in the honey. You might be able to calculate how much honey they used from the difference.
Aha! Glad I asked.
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Read the OEG method. It says “hearts” not low wines.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewto ... 14&t=48668
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NZChris wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:04 pm Read the OEG method. It says “hearts” not low wines.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewto ... 14&t=48668
Yes. I see that now.... I'm sure I read that post 4 times and missed it. Gin was great anyways, but I will do it properly next time!
Thanks!
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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NZChris wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:28 am
Rrmuf wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:16 am
NZChris wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:55 am What does your alcometer say the abv is?
45%. Why would that be different?
The sugars in the honey. You might be able to calculate how much honey they used from the difference.
Happy New Year!

... My test liter of Gin is gradually turning into a nice amber colour.

I think I have figured out based on the ABV difference, and honey equivalency to sugar that I would need to add ~50g of honey per liter of aged Gin to match it. So once my Gin is done aging in oak in a couple weeks, I will try to infuse maybe half of that, see where I sit in terms of taste and clarity and adjust if necessary.

On infusing the honey, I was thinking I would heat up some of the "aged" Gin and add the honey to that, and then return it to the remainder.

Any suggestions?
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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50g/l would be 41g of sugar per liter and would be too sweet for me. I see from my notes for my next Old Tom that I'm aiming for 15g/l, but to try a sample at 10g/l first.
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NZChris wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:34 pm 50g/l would be 41g of sugar per liter and would be too sweet for me. I see from my notes for my next Old Tom that I'm aiming for 15g/l, but to try a sample at 10g/l first.
Ok. Glad I asked. Any excuse to drop the amount to infuse is worth taking up. The original TCGin is hardly sweet at all. I sampled it with a friend last night and it is really nice to sip from. (I was just translating from 5% drop in ABV --> sugar required to account for 5% ABV in a mash --> scaled by volume to collected distilate --> honey to sugar equivalency.)

I did not like the test Gin I am using as a test sample; I don't care if it is "ruined" so I might incrementally go up to see when it starts to get sweet and when it starts to get cloudy. -- Alchemy is fun! :wink:

Question for you on Aging: OEG calls for a 4-5 week aging after distilation. Do you think I can do this at ther same time as I age under oak? Or should I do the 4-5 weeks then put under oak chips for a further 2-4 weeks?
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Re: Tom Cat Gin Experiment. Advice wanted!

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I don't bother to age most of my gin. There is usually some left after five weeks and I don't think it's amazingly better. When I did put some on a used, re-charred, UJSSM oak domino, I did it straight off the still. My notes say it was nice straight five months later. That was nearly a year ago, so I should have another taste.

With other spirits, I've found that a short time on oak just extracts wood and tannins. Nuking helps a bit, but nuked likker will also improve if you hide it for several months.

Let me know how much honey/l you settle on please.
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Will do, and thanks for the clarification on aging the Gin. I did religiously do the wait on the OEG and I think it did help, but to each his own 8)
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I don’t make a lot of OEG. The gins I do make don’t seem to benefit much from five weeks rest.
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NZChris wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:44 pm I don't bother to age most of my gin. There is usually some left after five weeks and I don't think it's amazingly better. When I did put some on a used, re-charred, UJSSM oak domino, I did it straight off the still. My notes say it was nice straight five months later. That was nearly a year ago, so I should have another taste.

With other spirits, I've found that a short time on oak just extracts wood and tannins. Nuking helps a bit, but nuked likker will also improve if you hide it for several months.

Let me know how much honey/l you settle on please.
OK. I tried 10g, 20g 30g per liter. I heated 500ml my 45% ABV oaked gin up to a point where it was hot, but not too hot to touch. Kept it there (more or less) while I added the honey. I did an ABV check at each increment

10g/l: ABV (hot) 50% Taste:no change. Clarity: clear
20g/l: ABV (hot) 47% Taste: barely. Clarity: clear
30g/l ABV (hot) 44% Taste: perceptible. Clarity: slight haze

I blended the 30g/l 500ml back with 250ml the original distilate and the haze improved but is still perceptible at room temp. I think that's acceptable. NB. the original ABV was 45% and the reading now shows 40%.

Taste-wise: the original gin had cassia overload (I think I mentioned that mistake) and the honey did mellow that out. So I will see how it tastes a couple weeks from now, and barring any change of heart, I think I will try @20g/l when I do this for real. It will be pretty easy to put aside some of my next gin run distilate before dilution to age and infuse.
Tom Cat prototype.jpg
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