questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

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d10
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questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by d10 »

Hello there!
i have a new pot still with a botanical basket, and im destilling gin. before in a old still, i was destilling guided by the temperature of vapor, and taste and smell. But I have some troubles with this new machine ( 3 resistors of 1400 w each one, that heat the thermal oil)
i macerate de botanical in a 55% alcohol solution, except citrus peel and flowers ( them in a botanical basket).
So the first drops recollected it's in 88 abs. So after to appart 3% of total solution in a boiler, i began to recollect the hearts ( the temp of vapor in this point its about 80ºC) Always destill at the lowest power, just 1400 w. so when i collect the 40% of total in the boiler, in my opinion is the best proportion. the temp is in 83 84 ºC, and i feel tails so i think its time to stop destilling.
What do you think? its normal have a 42 %? and cut the destillation in 85 Cº? OR i have to put more power and turn on the other resistance
Before i Cut in 92 Cº
And another question, what do you think about the temp of water in condesation, i try to use in 25C, but if the water up or down in C It could be a problem, if i get vapour condesation?
Many thanks!
Regard from Argentina
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MihiT
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by MihiT »

You'll learn the particular habits of your still as you do more runs.

I have a thermometer stuck in the lid of my pot. I know at 94°C indicated, I'm distilling water. On stripping runs or deep tails I will go all the way there.

I also sample cuts with either an hydrometer, or the old "is it flammable" (~40%abv) test.

Where you stop collecting is up to you. Certain spirits will require more from your tails. Certain runs I want more heat from the heads.

I think most people would tell you to collect down to 20%abv, after that you're spending more in heating for less in production. Still make cuts, but everything before and after "hearts" (the good stuff) gets mixed into a "feints" jug.

Any temperature lower than the vapour point of your ethanol will condense the vapour.
The closer it is to that temperature, the less discrimination you'll have and you'll start "smearing" though.

25° may be costing you a lot in cooling, but if water's free where you are it may not matter.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by Yummyrum »

From your welcome thread ….
d10 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:52 pm Hello i was reading the forum since about 2 years
After reading here for 2 years , you should have realized that we don’t condone the use of plastics . In fact it is one of our rules which I suggest you read again .

Get rid of the plastic funnel and never collect or store in plastic bottles .
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by howie »

my thoughts - i wouldn't be turning on another 1400w element (resistor), i think it would create a lot more vapour.
this vapour would then be sped up by the column narrowing and go through the gin basket too fast?
i collect about 40% (400ml for every litre) of the boiler before stopping collection, but i taste the output regularly before i reach 40% and stop early or later depending on taste.
i think the temp at the 40% mark is about 90C, but i go by taste.
is there any packing in the column above the boiler?
88%abv seems high for a pot still?
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by MihiT »

howie wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:52 pm 88%abv seems high for a pot still?
I'll hit 80% in the hearts on a spirit run without really trying...
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by howie »

MihiT wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:35 pm
howie wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:52 pm 88%abv seems high for a pot still?
I'll hit 80% in the hearts on a spirit run without really trying...
i usually get anything from 76%abv to 80%abv on a gin run without trying too.
i have only got 87% & 88% with a vigreaux fractioning column attached, which is why i asked.
but, i did look back in my notes from last year.
the last time i ran a setup very very similar to D10, with gin basket etc, i did get 88-89%abv.
just proves 2 things, notes are good and my memory isn't :lol:
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by Saltbush Bill »

MihiT wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:23 pm I also sample cuts with either an hydrometer, or the old "is it flammable" (~40%abv) test.
A hydrometer wont tell you anything about ABV,.... for that you need an "alcometer".
The flame test is also a unreliable and outdated way of making cuts, Many stills are capable of pumping out tails at 80%.....it will still burn but you wouldn't want to drink it.
Forget temps as well, Stick to using your senses of smell and taste.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by MihiT »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:19 pm
MihiT wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:23 pm I also sample cuts with either an hydrometer, or the old "is it flammable" (~40%abv) test.
A hydrometer wont tell you anything about ABV,.... for that you need an "alcometer".
The flame test is also a unreliable and outdated way of making cuts, Many stills are capable of pumping out tails at 80%.....it will still burn but you wouldn't want to drink it.
Forget temps as well, Stick to using your senses of smell and taste.
That might be a matter of vernacular. Yes "alcometer" is also correct, but here in NZ we buy "spirit hydrometers" (hydrometer being a thing which measures variance in density compared to water)
https://www.alembics.co.nz/product/spirit-hydrometer/

How is it the flame test is "unreliable"? Does anything <40% abv burn?

I was speaking only to my own still and own experience. It will not crank out tails at 80%. Good to note though if I ever upgrade.

I also don't use the temp for cuts (I just happened to have a hole in the lid that fit a bung and thermo)
I don't use any of these for CUTS, just as indicators of what's going on. Agree with you 100% that smell and taste is the only way to make cuts.

If it's an unfamiliar recipe then I'll generally do the spirit run into jars of 5/100ths or 1/10ths of low-wines volume, air them a day and then blend.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by Saltbush Bill »

MihiT wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:00 pm That might be a matter of vernacular. Yes "alcometer" is also correct, but here in NZ we buy "spirit hydrometers" (hydrometer being a thing which measures variance in density compared to water)
You are correct an Alcometer is a type of Hydrometer, but remember newbs read what you say here and many are easily confused, Ive lost track of the amount of times members have had to answer questions and sort problems because someone used a "Hydrometer" to get a ABV reading.....or visa versa.
If we all use the same industry standard words these mistakes do not happen as much, in simple terms if we all speak the same lingo.
Specialized hydrometers ~~~~~~~>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrometer.
MihiT wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:00 pm How is it the flame test is "unreliable"? Does anything <40% abv burn?
MihiT wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:23 pm I also sample cuts with either an hydrometer, or the old "is it flammable" (~40%abv) test.
To me that means you make cuts by the above methods ...ABV based on hydrometer reading and or flame test,...maybe my understandin of engrish aint good.
A good reflux still will pump out tails at a highly flammable ABV all day every day.....regardless of still type , ABV is no way to make cuts.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by d10 »

howie wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:52 pm my thoughts - i wouldn't be turning on another 1400w element (resistor), i think it would create a lot more vapour.
this vapour would then be sped up by the column narrowing and go through the gin basket too fast?
i collect about 40% (400ml for every litre) of the boiler before stopping collection, but i taste the output regularly before i reach 40% and stop early or later depending on taste.
i think the temp at the 40% mark is about 90C, but i go by taste.
is there any packing in the column above the boiler?
88%abv seems high for a pot still?
thanks for your answer
i thought about turn on the another resistor because I saw the little condensate in the botanical basquet didnt move anymore, so, I interpreted that i get more liquid instead vapor there.
there is no paccjing in the column, just copper pippe.Yes it a lot! I macerate at 55ABS, and the first drop is in 88% and finish in 75%abs
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by Saltbush Bill »

d10 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:34 pm I macerate at 55ABS, and the first drop is in 88% and finish in 75%abs
Does that mean that you are adding 55abv to your boiler ?
If so ,for safety reasons, this forum DOES NOT condone the use of anything more than 40% ABV as a boiler charge.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by MihiT »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:31 ambut remember newbs read what you say here and many are easily confused, Ive lost track of the amount of times members have had to answer questions and sort problems because someone used a "Hydrometer" to get a ABV reading.....or visa versa.
If we all use the same industry standard words these mistakes do not happen as much, in simple terms if we all speak the same lingo.
Sure, and fair enough to point it out.
Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:31 am
MihiT wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:00 pm How is it the flame test is "unreliable"? Does anything <40% abv burn?
MihiT wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:23 pm I also sample cuts with either an hydrometer, or the old "is it flammable" (~40%abv) test.
To me that means you make cuts by the above methods ...ABV based on hydrometer reading and or flame test,...maybe my understandin of engrish aint good.
"Sample" cuts. ie, cuts are already made.

"test" cuts may have been a less confusing word for ya.

I'm taking it you don't run a parrot, then :wink:
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by howie »

d10 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:34 pm
howie wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:52 pm my thoughts - i wouldn't be turning on another 1400w element (resistor), i think it would create a lot more vapour.
this vapour would then be sped up by the column narrowing and go through the gin basket too fast?
i collect about 40% (400ml for every litre) of the boiler before stopping collection, but i taste the output regularly before i reach 40% and stop early or later depending on taste.
i think the temp at the 40% mark is about 90C, but i go by taste.
is there any packing in the column above the boiler?
88%abv seems high for a pot still?
thanks for your answer
i thought about turn on the another resistor because I saw the little condensate in the botanical basquet didnt move anymore, so, I interpreted that i get more liquid instead vapor there.
there is no paccjing in the column, just copper pippe.Yes it a lot! I macerate at 55ABS, and the first drop is in 88% and finish in 75%abs
i was using the same gin basket but with 2" pipes.
i found that the vapour would condensate as soon as it touches the outside of the basket, then the basket, then the citrus. this caused plenty of fluid in the bottom of the gin basket.
in the end, instead of draining it off underneath the basket, i just let the liquid run back into the boiler to be re-heated.
eventually i just put the citrus in with the masceration and stopped using the gin basket.
whether you use the the infusion, part masceration/fusion or full masceration method is up to you and how you like your gin.
i believe that the infusion method is required if using flower. (high Abv needed to extract florals)
as for power, and i suppose it can be done on a jacketed boiler?
have you considered putting a voltage controller on one of resisters(elements)?
your boiler looks about 10 gallons/35l (same as mine)
2 x 1400w (total 2800w) would be too much for my boiler and 1400w not enough.
1 x 1400w + 1 x controlled 1400w, would give you settings like 1600w & 1900w etc.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by NZChris »

MihiT wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:36 pm I'm taking it you don't run a parrot, then :wink:
I've had the materials to build a parrot in my metal rack for years. Every time I think I finally have to get around to to building it, I find out that I already have an indicator that tells me what I need to know, so it is obsolete before it's even built.

In the meantime, I've seen many posts on forums by distillers who have made mistakes designing and building them, so I have a better understanding of how not to design them than I had when I first gathered the materials.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by Saltbush Bill »

MihiT wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:36 pm I'm taking it you don't run a parrot, then
:thumbup: , I have better things to do with my time than stare at a parrot.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by d10 »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:54 pm
d10 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:34 pm I macerate at 55ABS, and the first drop is in 88% and finish in 75%abs
Does that mean that you are adding 55abv to your boiler ?
If so ,for safety reasons, this forum DOES NOT condone the use of anything more than 40% ABV as a boiler charge.
I don't use fire to heat, and for nothing, just oil thermal, and electricity.
Beside as I don't put the botanical into the boiler I have to use more %abs to make the extraction .
Regards
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by d10 »

howie wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:45 pm
d10 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:34 pm
howie wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:52 pm my thoughts - i wouldn't be turning on another 1400w element (resistor), i think it would create a lot more vapour.
this vapour would then be sped up by the column narrowing and go through the gin basket too fast?
i collect about 40% (400ml for every litre) of the boiler before stopping collection, but i taste the output regularly before i reach 40% and stop early or later depending on taste.
i think the temp at the 40% mark is about 90C, but i go by taste.
is there any packing in the column above the boiler?
88%abv seems high for a pot still?
thanks for your answer
i thought about turn on the another resistor because I saw the little condensate in the botanical basquet didnt move anymore, so, I interpreted that i get more liquid instead vapor there.
there is no paccjing in the column, just copper pippe.Yes it a lot! I macerate at 55ABS, and the first drop is in 88% and finish in 75%abs
i was using the same gin basket but with 2" pipes.
i found that the vapour would condensate as soon as it touches the outside of the basket, then the basket, then the citrus. this caused plenty of fluid in the bottom of the gin basket.
in the end, instead of draining it off underneath the basket, i just let the liquid run back into the boiler to be re-heated.
eventually i just put the citrus in with the masceration and stopped using the gin basket.
whether you use the the infusion, part masceration/fusion or full masceration method is up to you and how you like your gin.
i believe that the infusion method is required if using flower. (high Abv needed to extract florals)
as for power, and i suppose it can be done on a jacketed boiler?
have you considered putting a voltage controller on one of resisters(elements)?
your boiler looks about 10 gallons/35l (same as mine)
2 x 1400w (total 2800w) would be too much for my boiler and 1400w not enough.
1 x 1400w + 1 x controlled 1400w, would give you settings like 1600w & 1900w etc.
I'm using a boiler 50l, and I have 3 resistor x 1400 watt, obviously using a thermal oil with a heat method. In the basquet I put azhar flowers and citrics, I get amazing results.
I was thinking a lot to setup a controller, but I have no idea to make it, and I didn't find the man who know that.
Here in Argentina, there isn't people to know that
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by NZChris »

d10 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:09 am Beside as I don't put the botanical into the boiler I have to use more %abs to make the extraction .
Regards
Who told you that you have to distil it at the same ABV you used for the maceration? I dilute mine when I put it in the still.

Also, if you are using some kind of bain-marie, you can put the botanicals in the still without worrying about burning them. I don't use a bain-marie, always put the botanicals in the still and have never burnt anything.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by Demy »

Here on the forum you will find info on controllers, I recommend them. The simple turned on / off of your electrical elements will not give you a gradual control. I also recommend, if you feel appropriate, to review some basic concepts of distillation, find a lot on the forum.Your an oil-bath still is a great tool if you know how to use it well, keep in mind that when you change the power introduced (for example, the temperature is up) it will take a bit to see the results.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by d10 »

NZChris wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:23 am
d10 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:09 am Beside as I don't put the botanical into the boiler I have to use more %abs to make the extraction .
Regards
Who told you that you have to distil it at the same ABV you used for the maceration? I dilute mine when I put it in the still.

Also, if you are using some kind of bain-marie, you can put the botanicals in the still without worrying about burning them. I don't use a bain-marie, always put the botanicals in the still and have never burnt anything.
Yes you right, but if I put the botanical in the boiler, it takes much time to clean it in each destilation. Anyways, I'll take the advice about dilution of solution
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by d10 »

Demy wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:25 am Here on the forum you will find info on controllers, I recommend them. The simple turned on / off of your electrical elements will not give you a gradual control. I also recommend, if you feel appropriate, to review some basic concepts of distillation, find a lot on the forum.Your an oil-bath still is a great tool if you know how to use it well, keep in mind that when you change the power introduced (for example, the temperature is up) it will take a bit to see the results.
Hello demy! Thanks for answer, what concept or something do you recommend specifically about destilation?
You're right, I have to read about controllers. If u know some articles interesting in the subject I'll thanks you
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by NZChris »

d10 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:35 pm Yes you right, but if I put the botanical in the boiler, it takes much time to clean it in each destilation.
How clean does a gin still need to be? I run mine with the botanicals in the boiler, then give it a squirt with a hose.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by d10 »

NZChris wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:03 pm
d10 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:35 pm Yes you right, but if I put the botanical in the boiler, it takes much time to clean it in each destilation.
How clean does a gin still need to be? I run mine with the botanicals in the boiler, then give it a squirt with a hose.
Ok! In the old boiler I used to put botanicals in the boiler, and as time went on i found oils in the copper and it was so hard to clean that.
Back to the last topic, beyond a question of security, would you recommend for something to distill the solution to 40% ABS?
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by NZChris »

I dilute with water, but there is nothing to stop you diluting with fruit juice if you want to add a fruit flavor.

I leave the oils on my copper to prevent corrosion between runs. They smell like gin. I rely on the condensation washing them down into the boiler at the start of the next run.
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by Demy »

d10 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:42 pm
Demy wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:25 am Here on the forum you will find info on controllers, I recommend them. The simple turned on / off of your electrical elements will not give you a gradual control. I also recommend, if you feel appropriate, to review some basic concepts of distillation, find a lot on the forum.Your an oil-bath still is a great tool if you know how to use it well, keep in mind that when you change the power introduced (for example, the temperature is up) it will take a bit to see the results.
Hello demy! Thanks for answer, what concept or something do you recommend specifically about destilation?
You're right, I have to read about controllers. If u know some articles interesting in the subject I'll thanks you
Hi, a controller will allow you to increase or decrease the power gradually, the same concept as the gas knob .. Generally here on the forum "SCR" type controllers are built or with "SSR" these are the applicant terms you will find on the forum . There are several posts on the forum and soon I will do a small video on how I built the SSR type. I use them both and they are both excellent. Here are post that speak of this (I know it, it's a long reading!) Https://homedistiller.org/forum/app.php ... itesearch=
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by Mares »

NZChris wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:23 am Who told you that you have to distil it at the same ABV you used for the maceration? I dilute mine when I put it in the still.
Hi Chris, any specific reason why diluting it before loading a still?
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Re: questions about temprature of destilation and condenser

Post by NZChris »

Mares wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:13 am
NZChris wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:23 am Who told you that you have to distil it at the same ABV you used for the maceration? I dilute mine when I put it in the still.
Hi Chris, any specific reason why diluting it before loading a still?
I normally macerate, overnight, at well over 60% ABV, far higher than I want to run the gin at.
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