Grapa Help

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Neozilian
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Grapa Help

Post by Neozilian » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:52 am

Hi All

Its harvest time in South Africa and Ive managed to get some great quality chenin grape skins. Looking to make some top quality grapa. Any advice?
Harvest
Harvest
25366713-ADCD-467A-A30A-53578E1A402D.jpeg
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NZChris
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Re: Grapa Help

Post by NZChris » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:06 pm

Decide what you want to make with it, then do whatever you have to do to make that.

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Demy
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Re: Grapa Help

Post by Demy » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:19 pm

It depends if you only distill the pomace or the whole fruit (wine with the pomace). To be precise you should call the "grappa" only the distillate produced by pomace. In any case, if you need to distill the wine + peel, you can get it as a normal distillation, if you want to distill only the pomace (as it should be done to call it grappa) you have some options: mix with water and proceed with distillation (not to the My first choice) or has an indirect heating system, my favorite is the steam where the steam passes through the skins and extract alcohol and aromas. Some time ago I had a small video, I created changes in the equipment but if you want to go a look. https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 07&t=80633

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Neozilian
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Re: Grapa Help

Post by Neozilian » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:45 am

Thanks Demy

Was a good read. Will start my build for steam extraction next.

Decided to add the must left over from the flocculation process to increase sugar levels and taste

Was thinking of adding pectic enzymes as well. Is it advisable?
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jonnys_spirit
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Re: Grapa Help

Post by jonnys_spirit » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:52 am

I've used the EX-V for increased extraction on grapes.. Might be worthwhile? Can turn the skins rather mushy too if you use too much.

https://scottlab.com/fermentation-cellar/enzymes/

If you have adequate quantity i'd stick with a traditional approach.

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Demy
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Re: Grapa Help

Post by Demy » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:41 am

Neozilian wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:45 am
Thanks Demy

Was a good read. Will start my build for steam extraction next.

Decided to add the must left over from the flocculation process to increase sugar levels and taste

Was thinking of adding pectic enzymes as well. Is it advisable?
Never used enzymes, it will work fine without it. I have distilled my grapes with various options, you will get a good product but vary the flavor based on what you distil. Make sure that whatever you distil has completed fermentation, if you distil liquid + skins make sure it is fluid enough otherwise you risk burns. If the alcohol content is very low, consider a double distillation.
P.S. I wrote the clarification on the term "grappa" not because I want to be an expert (I'm not) but because (at least here in Italy) there is a specification that regulates (in terms of law) the parameters to be called "grappa on the label ". We as home distillers have more room for maneuver but I must admit that the product distilled from pomace alone has a unique aromatic profile but is also more difficult to distill.

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Birrofilo
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Re: Grapa Help

Post by Birrofilo » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:14 pm

Demy wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:19 pm
It depends if you only distill the pomace or the whole fruit (wine with the pomace). To be precise you should call the "grappa" only the distillate produced by pomace.
This is not any more correct, to my knowledge, since a few years.
After many years of "lobbying", producer Nonino finally managed to allow the term Grappa to be applied also to the distillate of the whole fruit.

From a strictly commercial point of view, in the EU only the distilled product coming from Italy - and complying with the disciplinary of production - can be termed Grappa, basically Grappa is now a protected denomination of origin. That also means that in those countries that have treaties with the EU encompassing the Grappa mark, you might not find a spirit labelled Grappa if it is not distilled in Italy. Just like you do not find "Bourbon" sold in Italy which doesn't come from the US.

I am still confused regarding the Italian-speaking regions of Switzerland, which initially had obtained the right to mark "grappa" their products. That was from 2002 to 2008. For what I understand, since 2008 only the Italian produce can be termed grappa.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappa#Grappa_svizzera
Yet, I think some Italian-Swiss producers go on marketing their products as grappa.

That obviously doesn't apply to spirits which are not put into commerce.

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Re: Grapa Help

Post by Demy » Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:39 am

Birrofilo wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:14 pm
Demy wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:19 pm
It depends if you only distill the pomace or the whole fruit (wine with the pomace). To be precise you should call the "grappa" only the distillate produced by pomace.
This is not any more correct, to my knowledge, since a few years.
After many years of "lobbying", producer Nonino finally managed to allow the term Grappa to be applied also to the distillate of the whole fruit.

From a strictly commercial point of view, in the EU only the distilled product coming from Italy - and complying with the disciplinary of production - can be termed Grappa, basically Grappa is now a protected denomination of origin. That also means that in those countries that have treaties with the EU encompassing the Grappa mark, you might not find a spirit labelled Grappa if it is not distilled in Italy. Just like you do not find "Bourbon" sold in Italy which doesn't come from the US.

I am still confused regarding the Italian-speaking regions of Switzerland, which initially had obtained the right to mark "grappa" their products. That was from 2002 to 2008. For what I understand, since 2008 only the Italian produce can be termed grappa.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappa#Grappa_svizzera
Yet, I think some Italian-Swiss producers go on marketing their products as grappa.

That obviously doesn't apply to spirits which are not put into commerce.
Thanks for the post, do you have a reference to read where what you say is specified (for my personal culture)?

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Bushman
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Re: Grapa Help

Post by Bushman » Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:54 am

I have never made grappa with grapes but have done the same process with apples. With just the pomace and not the juice as Demy describes you do loose some of the sweetness. Another subject to read and google here on the forum deals with how you handle the fermentation. Look up Punching the Cap.

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Demy
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Re: Grapa Help

Post by Demy » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:06 am

Bushman wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:54 am
I have never made grappa with grapes but have done the same process with apples. With just the pomace and not the juice as Demy describes you do loose some of the sweetness. Another subject to read and google here on the forum deals with how you handle the fermentation. Look up Punching the Cap.
Hi Bushmann, we talked about the denomination in legislative terms, it is obvious that at a hobby level you can do as you want. I distilled all three grape derivatives (marc only, marc + juice, wine only) and they give different products (all excellent). However, I find that the distillate made from marc alone is unique in terms of aromatic profile even if the distillation yield is very low.

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Re: Grapa Help

Post by Bushman » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:09 am

Demy wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:06 am
Bushman wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:54 am
I have never made grappa with grapes but have done the same process with apples. With just the pomace and not the juice as Demy describes you do loose some of the sweetness. Another subject to read and google here on the forum deals with how you handle the fermentation. Look up Punching the Cap.
Hi Bushmann, we talked about the denomination in legislative terms, it is obvious that at a hobby level you can do as you want. I distilled all three grape derivatives (marc only, marc + juice, wine only) and they give different products (all excellent). However, I find that the distillate made from marc alone is unique in terms of aromatic profile even if the distillation yield is very low.
:thumbup:

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Re: Grapa Help

Post by JesseMarques » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:19 am

I'm here just to give ideas on distillation setup if you don't have steam yet
You can pot still it, heating with direct fire, and to avoid burns inside your boiler you can put some straw in the bottom with the pomace over it. That's how my grandma saw her elders doing in the past
In Portugal there's a spirit called bagaceira wich is basically distilled grape pomace, you can see in this video how the still is assembled

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Birrofilo
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Re: Grapa Help

Post by Birrofilo » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:45 am

Demy wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:39 am
Thanks for the post, do you have a reference to read where what you say is specified (for my personal culture)?
My only personal reference is the product "Ue", by Nonino, which is made from the whole fruit. The product page gives a vague reference to the Ministerial authorization to call it Grappa.

Ops, I see that it is not called grappa. It is "Acquavite d'uva". So, i stand corrected. Grappa is only the acquavite di vinacce. This, though, doesn't explain the "Ministerial authorization". You don't need any specific authorization to distill fruit (besides being an authorized distiller).

https://www.grappanonino.it/ue-lacquavite-duva/

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquavite_d%27uva

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Demy
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Re: Grapa Help

Post by Demy » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:19 pm

Birrofilo wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:45 am
Demy wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:39 am

Ops, I see that it is not called grappa. It is "Acquavite d'uva". So, i stand corrected. Grappa is only the acquavite di vinacce. This, though, doesn't explain the "Ministerial authorization". You don't need any specific authorization to distill fruit (besides being an authorized distiller).

https://www.grappanonino.it/ue-lacquavite-duva/

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquavite_d%27uva
So what I said is correct. I was almost sure but I could be wrong. P.S.nonino is a good grappa!

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