Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

We don’t condone the use of Continuous Stripping stills as a method of running 24/7 as this is a commercial setup only .
Home distillers should never leave any still run unattended and Continuous strippers should not be operated for longer periods than a Batch stripping session would typically be run to minimise operator fatigue..

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

No issues with steam hammering on your low wines HX?

A bit of steam hammering may be causing some of the irregular discharge and may be the reason your alchometer took flight.

Wonder if an air admittance valve / vent on top of that 180 bend would reduce that behavior?
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

I thought we talked about that revision in the design no?

Good for liquid to liquid heat transfer. But collapsing vapor can cause the steam hammer when there is a trap like that.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

Yea we did talk about that, I think I need to go that direction re: valve. I didn't hear steam hammer unless my pump shut down accidentally (the rig runs best just on the cusp between off and it's lowest 'setting'), then I got some hammer once the low wines warmed up, if I let it go steam finds a path through the top of the HX and blows out the parrot openings. So maybe my vapor condenser (VC) needs to turn up a little. But I don't hear hammering or get vibration in normal operation, just a little bit of flow pulsing. I think maybe what I need to do is upgrade my water valve manifold and give the VC a dedicated needle valve to fine tune the cool water flow.

You think a parrot with no vents should work better under normal operation?
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

pope wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:24 am Yea we did talk about that, I think I need to go that direction re: valve. A spring loaded air admittance like Studor vent operation. I didn't hear steam hammer unless my pump shut down accidentally (the rig runs best just on the cusp between off and it's lowest 'setting'), then I got some hammer once the low wines warmed up, if I let it go steam finds a path through the top of the HX and blows out the parrot openings. So maybe my vapor condenser (VC) needs to turn up a little.Turn up? But I don't hear hammering or get vibration in normal operation, just a little bit of flow pulsing. I think maybe what I need to do is upgrade my water valve manifold and give the VC a dedicated needle valve to fine tune the cool water flow.

You think a parrot with no vents should work better under normal operation?I feel like no vent on your parrot will enhance surging
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

Enhance surging as in reduce it, right? What about a 5-8 PSI check valve? I'm worried it might just spit low wines instead of breathe.

Turn up = I mistyped but I meant the water flow is too low, even though I'm not hearing hammering it's probably not knocking all the vapor down and it's probably causing some of the surging. Turning the water up a bit will reduce heat exchange but improve flow dynamics I think.

ALSO I realize a check valve would be great on the incoming liquid line, if the pump turns off the line gravity drains it out back to the fermenter, which causes issues at the parrot and probably at the drain port too.

I'll finally make a new parrot out of ss with a 1" pipe so the hydrometer actually works!
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

pope wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:53 am Enhance surging as in reduce it, right? What about a 5-8 PSI check valve? I'm worried it might just spit low wines instead of breathe.

Turn up = I mistyped but I meant the water flow is too low, even though I'm not hearing hammering it's probably not knocking all the vapor down and it's probably causing some of the surging. Turning the water up a bit will reduce heat exchange but improve flow dynamics I think.

ALSO I realize a check valve would be great on the incoming liquid line, if the pump turns off the line gravity drains it out back to the fermenter, which causes issues at the parrot and probably at the drain port too.

I'll finally make a new parrot out of ss with a 1" pipe so the hydrometer actually works!
A legit air admittance valve wouldn't let anything out.
Once that vapor enters that HX it can collapse rapidly and create a vaccum. Air admittance would soften that. Though it's good to here it doesn't seem like its hammering.

Can Google steam hammering and click on images and there should be a good animation on what happens when steam hammering occurs.

No sorry. By enhance I meant make any surging worse.
Yeah check valve needed on your beer feed
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

Grainger's got a nice looking SS air admittance valve for $93 haha. I'll have to look around some more or save this improvement for later.

I've gotten hammering and seen what it can do to ss impellers, so for me there's full hammer, pulse/surge, and even flow. As I eliminate variables it should keep getting better.

What do you think of 207F as a bottom temp? Too low?
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

I think 207 means you're loosing alcohol.

I might have a goofy sized PRV that has a built in vaccum/air admittance function.

Lemme check when I get back to the shop on Monday.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

Insulation will definitely help.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

Yea 207 seemed low. 210 probably pretty good. My yield was about 80% of expectations, so while I had some splashing I don't think a gallon splashed on the floor. By round two I'll get the bottoms HX's and some insulation going.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
Getsmokin
Swill Maker
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 4:33 pm

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by Getsmokin »

Pope, can you tell me more about the pump your using?
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

It’s a Yamada 5-series: https://www.yamadapump.com/ndp-5-series/

It’s driven by an air compressor, and it works pretty well but I haven’t tested its tolerance for solids yet. The whole point of the double diaphragm air pump for me is to do flour all-grain fermented and hopefully cornmeal consistency all-grain ferments, but so far I’ve only tested the system with birdwatchers... it grabbed some of the yeast cake off the bottom no problem but that’s not saying much haha. I should be running a flour ferment in the next couple days and added an in-line check valve so I should be running it at a higher cycle, I’ll have more to report soon hopefully!

Any questions I can try to answer for you?
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

Specs say 3.4 gallons a minute. That's 204 gallons an hour.
Are you using a bypass for speed control then?

1. How fast can you run without loosing alcohol down the drain?
2. How fast can you run without flooding?
3. Difference in abv at different production speeds?

Might take more than a single run to have good enough notes? If you had enough cooling capacity to remix your low wines and column bottoms you could distill in a closed loop and really test it out with running our of feed stock.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

I’m way below the max flow at my psi setting, but I did add a bypass so i have a tee and check valve area to adjust and control flow.. haven’t used it yet though.

First run was so rough I didn’t time it, with my hx on the bottoms I can do proper push testing. But it was probably close to 300 gal per 8 hour with some loss because no hx on the waste.

Didn’t try to flood it (yet).

My abv stuck around 60% on the first run... anyway definitely need more runs, I crammed in a lot of new welding and fittings to upgrade after the first run and just finished so I’ll have more info this week. I did birdwatchers, I have a flour mash ready to run, and some molasses/brown sugar finishing up this week. Then maybe some cornmeal.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

Shoot, 60% seems typically good to me.

What volume are you feeding with?
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

My bottoms temp just got a little low. But I was also going off of math for abv potential in a sugar wash, off a 50# sack of sugar I got about 4ish gallons of ~61% low wines, seemed a little like there was some loss I think I remember calculating that I should've had closer to five gallons. BUT, my first run I was just trying to fiddle and make sure it all worked at all.

I'm doing 15-30 gallon batches. I also have the problem of not knowing what the heck to do with all the results of my 'tests'. I think I need to start doing 30-minute tests, just enough to fire up, measure speeds, gauge success with a substrate, and clean it up. Except when I get to single malt, then I've got a little ex-rum Black Swan to fill.

Also I'm open to tips for milling malt down fine, I'm going to try and see what I can pull off with my 3-roll mill but eventually a flour mill may be in order.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

I'll do a full run in a bit but I got my lines fitted up last night (there are a lot of vinyl and silicone hoses for all the wash, waste, and water liquid lines), and a few concerns were addressed:

1) the pump chugs along with flour slurry (50# in 32 gal total volume) just like it was water, no stirring of the pot required
2) the pump pushes past the check valve just fine
3) the undulating flow of the pump is actually smoothed out by the check valve pressure (bonus!)

All in all I'm pretty hopeful that it'll be a smooth run later today, I'm expecting some significant foaming which I'm hoping won't cause puking, I didn't insulate yet but did everything else mentioned earlier in the thread to improve the system, so I can't think of any other pinch points than potential foaming issues but that concern isn't really based on anything other than a guess.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

Godspeed.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

So foaming is a think as is puke like a river from the beak of the parrot. Everything else works great I got my bottoms temp to 213 and had good flow til my head got a little crazy and the puke started flowing (albeit smoothly). My top plate is a little shy on head space so I’ll be adding some height to extend it and hopefully nip it in the bud.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

How much distance do you have at the moment?
What will you increase to?
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7652
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by Yummyrum »

Did you add any anti- foam agent Pope ? Was chalk and cheese on molasses for me .
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

Anything with fat will do. Think dairy (and doesn't have to be butter).
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

Top plate is 6-7” rest of the plates are 8”... top of my windows is about 5” and the lower windows only foam to around 5” but that top plate looks messy. I have some 4” process views for my flute so I’m going to borrow a foot or so.

I’ve thought about butter but it won’t emulsify so I’m not sure how to get a little into every drop, you think whole fat yogurt maybe? I’m hoping extra head space will do the trick, other than the foaming it was running pretty turnkey - high 190’s at the top and 212-213F at the bottom, briefly I had legit low wines flow but didn’t feel safe putting the hydrometer in lest it fly out.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

Whole milk, half & half, light whipping cream, heavy whipping cream........
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

Ugh... it was too early and I didn't have my head screwed on right. Heavy cream sounds like the right stuff, I saved some mash so I'll try a little. I'm wondering how well it'll work since it'll go down the drain bit by bit. In a batch system I'm assuming butter/fat floats on top of the liquid and a little goes a longer way.

I got it stabilized for a half hour or so this AM after some fussing, it needed about 6-8" of additional head space... the pump is fickle at the low setting I'm running it at but my compressor isn't large enough to run it higher and use my valve system to do a partial return... using a valved return would give me more stable and controllable flow. Took about half an hour to figure out my drain line builds to a syphon and ruins my stability, so I gave it a poor man's valve by crimping the hose a bit, but the exit flow definitely needs flow control. Because of the foaming I got it stabilized below max power and flow, but it leveled out at about a 4.5 minute gallon so by my goals I'm 1/3 of the way there. ABV is unknown since I broke my last hydrometer but it was testing around 35% which is low, but at least I know I'm catching all the good stuff. I think at >60% I was losing tails or worse, something worth keeping.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

I'll also say that all the changes made, including/especially the air admittance valve, were valuable improvements. I still need to make a new parrot that doesn't breathe... the flow ebbs and flows a little even when everything is dialed in, so I don't know if I'll ever really get reliable numbers off a parrot anyway but it helps direct flow into a catch vessel.

If I ran full 11kw and insulated I think I could handle a lot more flow but for a foam heavy wash/mash I would likely need bigger holes. Birdwatchers barely foamed up, I'll probably make another batch to see how fast I can run it.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
Getsmokin
Swill Maker
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 4:33 pm

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by Getsmokin »

Pope, keep the great feedback coming. A lot of your tweaks and improvements were on my list anyway, but its good to know how neccessary they are. My plan for pumping is a split manifold aodd with one side pushing the bottoms and the other feeding with a return valve.
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by pope »

For sure man. I don’t think you’ll need to push your bottoms out, the system is under 15 psi at the bottom (based on boiler psi), so the bottoms need to be kept in to keep a seal and maintain system pressure. I had issues with siphoning this morning and it would break the bottom end seal and the plate loads would collapse without bottom-up pressure. PITA then it dials in and its a wonderful thing.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by LWTCS »

pope wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 11:21 am For sure man. I don’t think you’ll need to push your bottoms out, the system is under 15 psi at the bottom (based on boiler psi), so the bottoms need to be kept in to keep a seal and maintain system pressure. I had issues with siphoning this morning and it would break the bottom end seal and the plate loads would collapse without bottom-up pressure. PITA then it dials in and its a wonderful thing.
Yeah if you can fashion a trap to help accumulate some bottoms liquid to keep pressure in the column rather than letting it blow out the bottoms hole.
Basically run your bottoms up hill a bit and when pressure builds in the column it should drive out bottoms nicely,,,,if you see my meaning?
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Getsmokin
Swill Maker
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 4:33 pm

Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column

Post by Getsmokin »

Was planning on holding the the bottoms to submerge a hex, then the overflow pumped out to a barrel.
Post Reply