Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
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Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Thought I'd start with an overview.
Goal: Ten plates of steam-powered foamy madness to strip alcohol from grain slurry (a meal- or flour-consistency on-the-grain mash).
To do it I'm making plates like these, the red holes are where copper rod on a bottom plate will support the two plates above it... the two upper plates will be 3.87" and the bottom 4", so that the bottom rests on the rim of the pipe below it. This section will be 24" of 4" SS pipe, there will be three sections, and the tenth plate will be in a fourth, smaller section up top where the mash slurry feeds into the column and there's a take-off fitting that runs into the product condenser.
That's phase I. Phase II will add on a few heat exchangers or HX's (horizontal shotgun condensers) so the hot waste mash off the bottom of the column is recycled in.
Other conversations on the topic include:
Pope's steam boiler: viewtopic.php?f=92&t=77118
Yummy's continuous build: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=76761
Getsmokin's steam boiler: viewtopic.php?f=92&t=74628&p=7594499#p7594499
Getsmokin's continuous build: viewtopic.php?f=92&t=77453
Here's the plate layout, .25" perf with a 5/8" hole for the downcomer (no cap):
Goal: Ten plates of steam-powered foamy madness to strip alcohol from grain slurry (a meal- or flour-consistency on-the-grain mash).
To do it I'm making plates like these, the red holes are where copper rod on a bottom plate will support the two plates above it... the two upper plates will be 3.87" and the bottom 4", so that the bottom rests on the rim of the pipe below it. This section will be 24" of 4" SS pipe, there will be three sections, and the tenth plate will be in a fourth, smaller section up top where the mash slurry feeds into the column and there's a take-off fitting that runs into the product condenser.
That's phase I. Phase II will add on a few heat exchangers or HX's (horizontal shotgun condensers) so the hot waste mash off the bottom of the column is recycled in.
Other conversations on the topic include:
Pope's steam boiler: viewtopic.php?f=92&t=77118
Yummy's continuous build: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=76761
Getsmokin's steam boiler: viewtopic.php?f=92&t=74628&p=7594499#p7594499
Getsmokin's continuous build: viewtopic.php?f=92&t=77453
Here's the plate layout, .25" perf with a 5/8" hole for the downcomer (no cap):
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
- shadylane
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Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
What made you decide on using 1/4" perf holes ?
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Larry.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
I'm also prepared for it to just not be a functional plate and to have to remake a new set of plates. I know of one way to find out if it'll work!
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Based on trying to scale the larger 12" system down to 4".
Factoring in variables that don't really scale in a linear kind of way.
The 1/4" holes are about as small as I'd be afraid to make them without being able to safely cope with solids.
The inactive area is the question mark for me because that will be responsible for the liquid hold up needed to adequately ensure that the alcohol has every opportunity to flash before it ends up going down the drain.
Push comes to shove, can always fill a hole or two up if needed.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Lets hope it doesn't come to that. I bet I can get my plates down to a 10-min process but I'd rather not do it twice. I can still throw another 5500w at the boiler if the holes are too big. At that point my batches probably won't last too long in the column.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
- shadylane
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Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
I didn't think about mash solids.
Or how that might effect the perf holes and downcomers.
I wonder if using weirs for a DC might work better than the 5/8 tube
Or how that might effect the perf holes and downcomers.
I wonder if using weirs for a DC might work better than the 5/8 tube
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Well, Mr. Pope is taking one for the team on this so we should all get a good education on this one.
This one here and Getsmokin's work is gonna be a great learning tool I figger,,,,is what I'm thinkin.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
- shadylane
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Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
The knowledge we exchange is the reason I come here.
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
I think it would Shady.
But a much bigger PITA to fab up I would think?
Square beer column would simplify that build.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Yea I decided this was my turn at trial and error. Shady you’ve definitely done plenty of projects on speculation and I’ve learned a lot from it all. Are you talking about something like this?
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
- shadylane
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Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
That's it
I figure that design would help the solids drain down without plugging anything up.
I figure that design would help the solids drain down without plugging anything up.
- Yummyrum
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Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Pope , I use Weir down comers. They cope very well and are very hard to flood . Since folk can have flooding even with 3/4” downcomers on a standard flute running 3-4kw , I would be concerned that 5/8” down comer wouldn’t stand a chance with 11kw and a thicker liquid.
Note the silicone gaskets are now teflon wrapped
Wouldn’t do them this way again but the principle works .
I made the weir on my stripping feed plate by annealing and flattening a ring of 1.25” to an oval to fit the curve of the 4” then soldered a 3/4” downcomer to that .
It seems to me that the advantage of a weir is the large surface area that the bubbles can overflow into , once inside the weir , they colapse and flow down the narrow downcomer no worries .
download/file.php?id=63530&mode=view Although I used a J trap and distributor , for a plate , I’d bring the 3/4” downcomer all the way down to the plate below and stop short by about 1/4” . Thats how I’ll be doing mine iff’n I ever get around to it .
Note the silicone gaskets are now teflon wrapped
Wouldn’t do them this way again but the principle works .
I made the weir on my stripping feed plate by annealing and flattening a ring of 1.25” to an oval to fit the curve of the 4” then soldered a 3/4” downcomer to that .
It seems to me that the advantage of a weir is the large surface area that the bubbles can overflow into , once inside the weir , they colapse and flow down the narrow downcomer no worries .
download/file.php?id=63530&mode=view Although I used a J trap and distributor , for a plate , I’d bring the 3/4” downcomer all the way down to the plate below and stop short by about 1/4” . Thats how I’ll be doing mine iff’n I ever get around to it .
My recommended goto .
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Goddamn that is great work! My plan was/is to bring the downcomer to the plate as you say, with a 1/4” gap. The next downcomer being 3/4” tall. What is the area of the opening of the weir? You’re saying it’s 3/4” across at the widest point with a 2” radius on the curve? What’s the tangent length?
At this point I could easily expand the hole to fit a 3/4” pipe.. I am trying to decide if there’s a way to test just a 3-plate section for flooding... I could manually warm fermented slurry in a stock pot to just below fores temp and pump that in... not expecting thorough stripping but maybe I’d get a peek at the fluid dynamics on the bottom plate.
At this point I could easily expand the hole to fit a 3/4” pipe.. I am trying to decide if there’s a way to test just a 3-plate section for flooding... I could manually warm fermented slurry in a stock pot to just below fores temp and pump that in... not expecting thorough stripping but maybe I’d get a peek at the fluid dynamics on the bottom plate.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
I'm still open to modifying these or scrapping... or maybe making each of the three main segments with different plate configs and testing them? I'm only putting a window on the bottom plate for economic reasons, so I won't get to see how they work across several plates.
Here's the current plates and the gap. Note the fit photo shows the plate twisting a little along the x-axis so the gaps look bigger than they are, the y-axis gap is more indicative. Bottom plate will be a tight seal around the edges.
Here's the current plates and the gap. Note the fit photo shows the plate twisting a little along the x-axis so the gaps look bigger than they are, the y-axis gap is more indicative. Bottom plate will be a tight seal around the edges.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
One more - I marked up potentially stepping up the downcomer from 1/2" pipe to 3/4" or 1" pipe, looks like I have room for both, so I could disassemble and bore out the larger holes if I have to. Not ruling out weirs but if the plates can work with downcomers, it's much less complicated!
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
If you increase your DC diameter to 1" you will have the same ratios as the 12" plate.
I bet the 3/4 will do fine since you're not really under the gun to process X amount per hour or the like.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Honestly even if I could run it with 1" downcomers, I won't have enough ferment volume to get the system dialed in before the run is over! I'd probably need a 2" diameter parrot pipe to avoid having the flow rate throw the hydrometer accuracy.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Not to change the topic from plates (lots of great info here) what will you use to pump the mash in the column?
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Hopefully something that will meter or can be throttled. Something that will pair with a VFD or some kind of speed control.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
I was looking at flex impeller pumps, but all the small ones are single phase induction motors.
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
hopefully some of this will help:
distilling on the grain, i overfilled and then flooded the lower plate. it's 3/32 sieve plate with a 3/4 downcomer. the solids were fine and (let's say lots) pushed up thru the sieve. i thought as long as i kept them wet and moving, eventually they would wash down the down comer when there was room in the kettle...but not the case... i eventually had to shut down let 'er cool and pull out about 2-3 inches of grain through the sight glass. there was no way those fines were going to drop on their own. but as long as they were wet and moving it did not seem to have much risk of blinding...i watched it for over a hour to ensure it didn't seal itself up into a bomb.
sooo...that leads me to suggest progressively screening the wort down to a fine filter size and keep the incoming nice and clean would be very advantageous to continuous stripping.
as to the pumps...flex impellers will work but solids will blind them too if too heavy. the other problem i see with flex impellers is driving hot mash...they tend to leak and then get "stuck" when they cool down, leading to excessive wear on motors and seals when re-starting. the impellers also rip off a fin (or 2 or 3) easier when pumping hot...then they don't move the same pressure/volume...and you gotta find the impeller fin somewhere down stream.
i think filtering is going to be key to happiness on the pumping front as well.
i understand diaphragm pumps may offer advantages, but have not used them...but it may be worth examining them a bit further to see how they handle the heat. i understand they handle solids well...you also need compressed air to drive them IIRC
i'm excited to see where this goes!
distilling on the grain, i overfilled and then flooded the lower plate. it's 3/32 sieve plate with a 3/4 downcomer. the solids were fine and (let's say lots) pushed up thru the sieve. i thought as long as i kept them wet and moving, eventually they would wash down the down comer when there was room in the kettle...but not the case... i eventually had to shut down let 'er cool and pull out about 2-3 inches of grain through the sight glass. there was no way those fines were going to drop on their own. but as long as they were wet and moving it did not seem to have much risk of blinding...i watched it for over a hour to ensure it didn't seal itself up into a bomb.
sooo...that leads me to suggest progressively screening the wort down to a fine filter size and keep the incoming nice and clean would be very advantageous to continuous stripping.
as to the pumps...flex impellers will work but solids will blind them too if too heavy. the other problem i see with flex impellers is driving hot mash...they tend to leak and then get "stuck" when they cool down, leading to excessive wear on motors and seals when re-starting. the impellers also rip off a fin (or 2 or 3) easier when pumping hot...then they don't move the same pressure/volume...and you gotta find the impeller fin somewhere down stream.
i think filtering is going to be key to happiness on the pumping front as well.
i understand diaphragm pumps may offer advantages, but have not used them...but it may be worth examining them a bit further to see how they handle the heat. i understand they handle solids well...you also need compressed air to drive them IIRC
i'm excited to see where this goes!
I finally quit drinking for good.
now i drink for evil.
now i drink for evil.
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
I have pumped unfermented room temp and fermented room temp converted flour, 25# in 15 gal total volume, using a March 815 pump. It was slow but worked, I was thinking a chugger MAX or Blichman riptide. Both (with tc fittings) are $300-400 (unfortunately). They come as either 230v or 115/230v. I wouldn’t try cornmeal in my current pump but will certainly try with a bigger pump. The rigs I’m looking at have flow control built into the pump and I figure I can get close on the pump then dial back power on one element in the boiler to balance the system. I also need to make a continuous mash mixer that can hang on a pot lip so I can keep the viscosity of the feed mash consistent.
My plan is to get as close to flour consistency as possible before the grain gets wet, if I screen, try and do it dry and re-mill the large bits. Maybe try to find or make a decent flour mill. Mine now is a 3-roller barley mill but it handles cracked corn okay. I’d rather buy flours but it doesn’t always give you varietal choices (like heirloom corn).
If the pump is at the fermenter it shouldn’t need to handle any heat, the mash will pick up heat on the way to the top of the column.
My plan is to get as close to flour consistency as possible before the grain gets wet, if I screen, try and do it dry and re-mill the large bits. Maybe try to find or make a decent flour mill. Mine now is a 3-roller barley mill but it handles cracked corn okay. I’d rather buy flours but it doesn’t always give you varietal choices (like heirloom corn).
If the pump is at the fermenter it shouldn’t need to handle any heat, the mash will pick up heat on the way to the top of the column.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
I'm saving up for a vaporhoning cabinet. Basically a sandblasting cabinet, but with water and an abradive or cleaning agent of choice. They run with a membrane kind of pump, I'd think that would be your best option. They run warm slurries of abrasive laden fluid all day, plus I think they are speed controlled dependent on flow required at the spraygun.
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
I did some plate work today, one downcomer is conspicuously absent but this is the general format I'm using. Two more of these plus a tenth plate on the top of the whole thing. 3/4" downcomer with 3/4" rise above the plate, and 1/4" gap between the bottom of the downcomer and the next plate. I'm thinking maybe I add a snip of rod to maintain the gap since the plates have a tendency to bend a little when I shove them into the pipe. I also still need to planish them to harden them up after I heat up the solder drips and wipe it all clean, so they'll hopefully bend less once they're hardened. The catch point is where the sight glass ferrule sank into the pipe ID a tad so I can still go in with a die grinder and open that spot up a little too, that will help the assembly slide in and out. I have some gaps in the 1/16 to 1/8" range but I'm hoping with the force I'm pushing up through the column those won't cause issues. Kind of need the gaps to get the assembly into the pipe.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
- Yummyrum
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Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Looking good Pope . You’re smashing this build out .
Is that solid copper or pipe on those support rods ?
I’m liking this build , I imagined having to make 10 individual plate sections with windows on each ..... tours makes so much more sense .
I think you are right that the plate/ wall gap won’t be an issue at the power your going to use certainly compared to the hole size .
Is that solid copper or pipe on those support rods ?
I’m liking this build , I imagined having to make 10 individual plate sections with windows on each ..... tours makes so much more sense .
I think you are right that the plate/ wall gap won’t be an issue at the power your going to use certainly compared to the hole size .
My recommended goto .
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Trying to put in an hour plus a day. Tubes and sight ferrules #2 and #3 come in tomorrow. I'll try and cut out more plates tonight.
I want to make windows on each but if I decide I want to go from 8" to 12" plate gaps, my upper windows will be too many and in the wrong place. So it's one per three for now (plus it takes me a couple hours to weld on and buff a ferrule, then there's all the sight glasses to buy). The top is a 4x4x3 tee so I already have a sight on that one, just need to add the inlet for the mash.
I want to make windows on each but if I decide I want to go from 8" to 12" plate gaps, my upper windows will be too many and in the wrong place. So it's one per three for now (plus it takes me a couple hours to weld on and buff a ferrule, then there's all the sight glasses to buy). The top is a 4x4x3 tee so I already have a sight on that one, just need to add the inlet for the mash.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
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Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Never ran a continuous or even read up on them too much, but i do know a little bit about pumps. I wouldd definitely look in to diaphragm pumps. The duel acting
( two diaphragms ones pushing fluid that each stroke) air powered ones will push solids through them all day with out much of any issue, its what they are made for. You can control the flow rate by metering the air in with a valve or a regulator.
I know they sell single acting electric diaphragms as well. I don't know to much about them. Im sure they would still move your slurry without issue. I don't know if theres a way to control the flow rate. I don't think there is.
Just a thought.
Crispy
( two diaphragms ones pushing fluid that each stroke) air powered ones will push solids through them all day with out much of any issue, its what they are made for. You can control the flow rate by metering the air in with a valve or a regulator.
I know they sell single acting electric diaphragms as well. I don't know to much about them. Im sure they would still move your slurry without issue. I don't know if theres a way to control the flow rate. I don't think there is.
Just a thought.
Crispy
- shadylane
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Re: Pope's 10-plate Continuous Column
Maybe use gravity to feed the mash into the column