20 Plate Spirit Column

We don’t condone the use of Continuous Stripping stills as a method of running 24/7 as this is a commercial setup only .
Home distillers should never leave any still run unattended and Continuous strippers should not be operated for longer periods than a Batch stripping session would typically be run to minimise operator fatigue..

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20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

Doug asked me not to convolute his thread. Pope's thread would also get a bit convoluted with this post.

But I did want to post this as a visual response to one (or two) of stevea's assertions (on Pope's thread) about a particular design that he said either did not exist or wouldn't work (or some such?) because he had never seen it.

What you see here is a bit of H2o accumulation on the sight glasses because we had just fired the system and were in the process of enriching the column. Once fully enriched, the sight glasses would be quite free of (H2o) condensation sticking to the sight glasses.

I thought this would be interesting to otherwise share.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6IGHSsr6chg
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by Ben »

Beautiful monster :)
:)
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by squigglefunk »

that's neat
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by Setsumi »

LWTCS wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:46 am Doug asked me not to convolute his thread. Pope's thread would also get a bit convoluted with this post.

But I did want to post this as a visual response to one (or two) of stevea's assertions (on Pope's thread) about a particular design that he said either did not exist or wouldn't work (or some such?) because he had never seen it.

What you see here is a bit of H2o accumulation on the sight glasses because we had just fired the system and were in the process of enriching the column. Once fully enriched, the sight glasses would be quite free of (H2o) condensation sticking to the sight glasses.

I thought this would be interesting to otherwise share.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6IGHSsr6chg
Your title say spirit still but I presume it is continious? Can you elaborate on running and draw of product?

Edit. I understand the fractioning and retification parts in continious. But would like to see how spirits are drawn in this.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

Hi Setsumi.
Beer feed traverses through two heat exchangers on the center rack. The beer acts as a cooling media for the low wines vapor and also for the beer column effluent. In kind, the beer is preheated to an approximate injection temp of 172F (77.7C).

Low wines (50% abv) exit the HX and are deposited into a doubler on the far right.
The head space in the doubler maintains a target temperature determined by the operator.

Vapor of course enters the spirit column. Plate count is at this point academic as long as the diameter of the spirit column can handle the vapor speed/pressure.

Product is drawn off at one or more plate levels according to the operator's determination.

The top dephlegmator is precisely adjusted to allow for an on going heads cut of say ,,,,fast drips to a slow, broken stream. Is there ethanol in the heads product? Yes. Does the heads have a rank smell compared to the finished spirit. Yes. Can heads be returned to the beer well for recycling and additional exposure to thermal degradation? Absolutely.

The bottom dephlegmator (on the kettle) acts to hold fusels in the kettle and also assists the operator adjust abv. This dephlegmator (pre-separation HX) is not as critical for flavored spirits as such. But with a proper vodka column it is a very helpful tool for maintaining high abv at optimal collection speeds and also ensuring good column behavior by keeping fusels in the doubler. So no fusel draws needed on the vodka column.

When the doubler fills to max liquid level, a pump down is triggered and the contents are sent back to the beer well for recycling.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

The spirit column used to sit on the doubler.
But the copper top on the doubler likely wasn't happy about the weight associated with a proper vodka column.
So we put the column on a stand as a standard to make the option of a short column or tall column easier to adjust for.

What you see in the video is this configuration. The difference however is the column in the video is 20 plates with 6 product draws. The operator determined that he wanted draws at 3, 4, 5,10, 18, and 20.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

Product draws are positioned so that the plate does not run dry.
Product draws are essentially a pee trap with a valve.
The trap prevents vapor from escaping when the valve is open and drawing distillate.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

As I have mentioned in past posts, product needs to be taken as liquid and heads is directed as vapor toward the top of the apparatus and vented past the top dephlegmator. Then finally condensed back to liquid once out of the column.
This process allows for an imperfect way to make a heads cut by taking advantage of liquid temps vs vapor temps within the system.

I have seen some systems that have a simple vent down stream from the PC that is open to the atmosphere. Gee I wonder why there is all that black alcohol mold all over the buildings that are adjacent to the distilleries running system with a heads vent open to the atmosphere?
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by Setsumi »

Thanks Lary for the information. Do the 6 product draws make individual cuts or different products or are some draws pooled for a blended product?

How does the headspace maintain doubler temps?
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

Setsumi wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:40 am Thanks Lary for the information. Do the 6 product draws make individual cuts or different products or are some draws pooled for a blended product?

How does the headspace maintain doubler temps?
Hi Setsumi,
Cuts are not made from the product draws. Heads are vented to the top of the apparatus and allowed to pass by the top dephlemator CM style.
The theory is that the lower boiling point constituents will have more opportunity to re-flash at each liquid bed and continue to rise up the column as vapor.
Finished distillate is drawn off as liquid and therefore theoretically will have less heads constituents compared to drawing finished product off as vapor.

Each product draw will render a different flavor profile. It is no problem to open multiple draw valves and collect distillate from multiple plate levels.

The reboiler has a heat source. In this case steam. There is a temp sensor / thermometer located on the top of the dome. The operator applies more or less heat according to his determined target temperature. We have found that a good range is 93°C to 97°C
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by Setsumi »

Thank you for the explanations. Although continious is outside my scope, I like the technical and theoretical knowledge shared.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by Chauncey »

That is quite the beast. Is it just me or are the top windows foggy?
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by Setsumi »

Chauncey wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:40 pm That is quite the beast. Is it just me or are the top windows foggy?
Lary did explain in his first post.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by Chauncey »

Setsumi wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:42 pm
Chauncey wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:40 pm That is quite the beast. Is it just me or are the top windows foggy?
Lary did explain in his first post.
Lol my bad

Too many shots tonight I reckon

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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by drmiller100 »

I just saw this.

Really cool. Thank you for sharing!!!
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by SassyFrass »

Just seen this...absolutely neat as all get out. Reckon I'll stick to my pot, until I figure out CCVM. That contraption is WAY more complicated than this hillbilly can comprehend. Just reading your replies to Setsumi was over my head. Lots of big words ill have to look up. Lol
Anyway, thank you for posting.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by Sulaiman »

LWTCS wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:46 am I thought this would be interesting to otherwise share.
thanks so much for sharing.

Just curious:
why don't you insulate the column(s) and reboiler(s)
I would expect greater (fractionating and cost) efficiency.
and
how continuous is continuous?
(days/weeks/months?)
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

Sulaiman wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:24 am
LWTCS wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:46 am I thought this would be interesting to otherwise share.
thanks so much for sharing.

Just curious:
why don't you insulate the column(s) and reboiler(s)
I would expect greater (fractionating and cost) efficiency.
and
how continuous is continuous?
(days/weeks/months?)
We could / can.
Evidently the visual experience in the tasting room environment also provides value.
Copper = pretty
Insulating material = ugly

Not my call.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by ecir54 »

LWTCS wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:01 am
Sulaiman wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:24 am
LWTCS wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:46 am I thought this would be interesting to otherwise share.
thanks so much for sharing.

Just curious:
why don't you insulate the column(s) and reboiler(s)
I would expect greater (fractionating and cost) efficiency.
and
how continuous is continuous?
(days/weeks/months?)
We could / can.
Evidently the visual experience in the tasting room environment also provides value.
Copper = pretty
Insulating material = ugly

Not my call.
there is aluminum and colored pvc jacketing to that is used in plants that protects the insulation and if done right look very nice.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

ecir54 wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:43 pm
LWTCS wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:01 am
Sulaiman wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:24 am
LWTCS wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:46 am I thought this would be interesting to otherwise share.
thanks so much for sharing.

Just curious:
why don't you insulate the column(s) and reboiler(s)
I would expect greater (fractionating and cost) efficiency.
and
how continuous is continuous?
(days/weeks/months?)
We could / can.
Evidently the visual experience in the tasting room environment also provides value.
Copper = pretty
Insulating material = ugly

Not my call.
there is aluminum and colored pvc jacketing to that is used in plants that protects the insulation and if done right look very nice.

Yessir.
I have seen that on several applications.
I do agree that it does provide a nice aesthetic.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by bluc »

Multiple deflags. So is there one right at bottom to hold back tails and another right at top and product drawn between them? Lm style?
How does pumping siphoning the lw in while running effect the output. I gather it has to enter at same same speed as finished spirit exists?
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

bluc wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:43 am Multiple deflags. So is there one right at bottom to hold back tails and another right at top and product drawn between them? Lm style? yes, the product draws are positioned so that the plates never run dry.
How does pumping siphoning the lw in while running effect the output. I gather it has to enter at same same speed as finished spirit exists? the beer stripper can never out run the spirit column on the arrangement, and the thumper never gets pumped dry. There are a pair of max level / min level liquid fill sensors that will trigger a pump down that will send low wines back to the beer well. As you can imagine, runningat higher reflux ratios will trigger more frequent pump downs. Sending the thumper juice back to the beer well simply enriches the abv of the remaining beer and allows the system to run that much more efficiently.
By choosing optimal target temperatures, the operator can dial the system in to minimize pumping down if that matters.
But doing so will slow down processing speed. I am ambivalent about how that will positively or negatively impact the finished distillate. That would be the operator's job. I personally do not regard a pump down as a loss in practical efficiency. In my opinion a still has to have a wide operating range in order to make multiple products well and also provide the processing speed needed to be profitable. I was somewhat taken aback when I learned a beautiful still ( similar to the Head Frame design) could only process 250 liters of beer per hour.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by Setsumi »

LWTCS wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:01 am
Sending the thumper juice back to the beer well simply enriches the abv and allows the system to run that much more efficiently.
Genius. My first thought was why not keep it in the colums. BUT then I realized the beer well never gets depleted of alchohol like on a batch still and sending low wines back just enrich the beer feed.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

Setsumi wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:34 am
LWTCS wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:01 am
Sending the thumper juice back to the beer well simply enriches the abv and allows the system to run that much more efficiently.
Genius. My first thought was why not keep it in the colums. BUT then I realized the beer well never gets depleted of alchohol like on a batch still and sending low wines back just enrich the beer feed.
Yes correct. No alcohol goes to waste. Yes it is true that some previously stripped alcohol does have to traverse back through the stripper. And that does represent a degree of inefficiency. But within the context of an 8000L beer well that becomes incrementally enriched as the run progresses and therefore allows for an increase in good still behavior I don't think it's an egregious inefficiency to cope with.

And as I mentioned several times before, imo the i the most egregious inefficiency is labor hours. Within the context of business, unless everyone is on salary, overtime can be a back breaker far more than the cost of the equipment amortized over a straight line depreciation or the power input needed to drive the equipment.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by stevea »

LWTCS wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:46 am Doug asked me not to convolute his thread. Pope's thread would also get a bit convoluted with this post.

But I did want to post this as a visual response to one (or two) of stevea's assertions (on Pope's thread) about a particular design that he said either did not exist or wouldn't work (or some such?) because he had never seen it.

What you see here is a bit of H2o accumulation on the sight glasses because we had just fired the system and were in the process of enriching the column. Once fully enriched, the sight glasses would be quite free of (H2o) condensation sticking to the sight glasses.

I thought this would be interesting to otherwise share.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6IGHSsr6chg
I don't know what you imagine that I said, but I assure you it's based on theory and/or calculation. Please state specifically what you think I said that you've believe you have contradicted. A hand-wave-y "he's wrong" w/o any context makes you look the fool. I'm willing to learn and correct my mistakes, but I don't enjoy the insulting tone of your assertions as to WHY I've made assertions. "because I've never seen it" has never any been part of my position or thinking.
==

On to more pleasant matters,

Your design drawing (I assume that you are Larry from Still dragon) is indeed interesting.
I count 16 separation plates (10+6) , and then reboiler/doubler counts+1, and the base HX on the beer column counts+1 too, so 18 plates - no ?

The kettle labelled "reboiler" seems to be the doubler. I know it's traditional, but what exactly do you see as the advantage of going from vapor to liquid and back to vapor through a doubler ? That vs say another plate ? Do you pre-load the doubler with anything ? (I've read various method on a vendome system).

There is a tangle of pipes and HXs in the drawing that is hard to parse, but I don't see any clear sign of a dephegmator or liquid return to the beer column. The base heating of the beer column is also mysterious. Steam injection ? McCabe-Theile suggests you need 8 ideal plates to recover 95% of EtOH at >50%ABV, and zero reflux, so your 12 real plates will do the job I expect. [Counter-intuitively you can get better recovery (or fewer plates) using a cold feed, but at an energy cost. Staring at the q-line for a McCabe-T diagram explains why.]

The 12" beer column should (I'll assume steam injection) have a feed rate around 800 liter/hour. [ Headframe is just under 9" diameter (~56% of the cross-section) and reportedly works 450l/hr or 2gpm ]. In steady-state you should get neutral 95%ABV (assume 10%ABV feed) at 80l/hr or 1.3 liter/minute - far more than a trickle.

Design Issues:
A) After the stripper I count 7 real plates (including the doubler) and that's very few to get to neutral. You'll need a LOT of reflux to get neutral out of that which explains the slow trickle and the vapor velocity considerations. If neutral is the goal, you'd want extra plates in the spirit column. That will improve the throughput too by reducing reflux, and also reduce energy use.

B) Adding heat (the reboiler heater) and removing it [cold reboiler-dephleg') at the same plate is an energy waster that doesn't improve separation. The point of reflux is to enrich lower plates therefore up-coming vapor, but that can't happen here. You are not magically, selectively knocking down fusels with any dephleg' ever. That is not how vapor condensation works. The comments suggests possible mist separation (de-entrainment) issues. In a continuous column fusels tend to accumulate at a plate around 65%ABV which is likely the lowest plate on your spirit column.

C) The narrow pipe between the reboiler & spirit column will increase vapor velocity and entrainment and cause turbulence at the outlet, also a pressure therefore BP difference. Maybe it can't be helped, but it's non-ideal.

D) I think you should be able to get the feed to 73C+ based on just the heat of vaporization off the stripper. If that is so (have you measured?) then the expense of the big HX between wash & stillage is of dubious value. I'm all about energy saving but a big extra HX for +4C isn't much of a payoff. [800l/hr * 4C * 4000J/C.liter = 3.6kW => ~ 50 cents of electric resistive heat per hour of operation or per 200+gal of wash]. You lose far more heat to the room.

I think I'd mod the design (assuming I wanted neutral) by putting ~9 or 10 plates directly above the reboiler/doubler and eliminating the bottle-neck and reducing the reflux & energy req'. Also eliminate the one dephleg' & one HX, and also the narrow vapor channel. It *MAY* still need the doubler-overflow scheme, but it should be close to keeping up. The correct place to deposit that overflow is to the top of the beer still (it's logical-reflux in a split column), but that's a high-temp explosion-proof pump and some piping away. The stripper column looks good.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

Oh boy, where do I begin?
My tone is nothing more than what I perceive to be a reflection of your dismissiveness of every "continuous" thread here, including your dismissive comments on this thread.
Always followed up with your admission to no actual practical experience. Though I will say that it is bad manners and unprofessional on my part and I do apologize for being a smarty pants.

The line drawing posted has the short, flavored spirits column. The video at the beginning is the same layout with a taller vodka column. The process flow is identical for either system.

Yes the reboiler is a doubler / thumper. 1 plate value. The reboiler is set up to manage spirit column bottoms by sending surplus thumper juice back to the beer well when the max liquid level is achieved. Pre charging the doubler on a continuous still seems pointless imo.

"There is a tangle of pipes and HXs in the drawing" A tangle stevea? ok.

No the 12" beer column does appreciably better than an 800L feed rate. in fact it out paces the competitor's 14"

Anyway stevea, thank you for your recommendations. I do agree that sending the thumper juice back to the top of the beer column would be a more efficient circuit.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by witch »

All i can say some one has very deep pockets. Thing of beauty. To new at this to say if its worth the cash but nice SIR. :thumbup:
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by LWTCS »

witch wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:55 pm All i can say some one has very deep pockets. Thing of beauty. To new at this to say if its worth the cash but nice SIR. :thumbup:
Relative to comparable production volumes, it's still a better value than several of the other notable builders.
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by Yummyrum »

witch wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:55 pm All i can say some one has very deep pockets. Thing of beauty. To new at this to say if its worth the cash but nice SIR. :thumbup:
Just in case you missed it , it is a Commercial setup .
Just a wee bit to big for a Home distiller .
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Re: 20 Plate Spirit Column

Post by stevea »

LWTCS wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:11 pm Oh boy, where do I begin?
How about an apology for your constant stream of off-topic personal insults toward me ? I'm not always right - don't claim to be. Your constant stream of "wow is steveea wrong" with zero detail nor any contradiction, is just childish. I WANT to discuss distilling, and you reject that every time you post "wow is stevea wrong" and yet cannot site or discuss a single issue in any detail.
My tone is nothing more than what I perceive to be a reflection of your dismissiveness of every "continuous" thread here, including your dismissive comments on this thread.
I can't take someone who thinks normal stillage can reach 220F as liquid at 1 atmospheric very seriously. It suggest you don't understand partial pressures and the causes of these (which is fundamental). I can't take someone who misuses common distillation jargon recklessly very seriously. If you think a dephleg' separates by BP like fusel reduction - then you are simply ignorant of basic physical chemistry of condensation. I'm not a genius on these concepts - I'm still a student, but I don't confidently mislead others as you do. I HOPE that we can all learn together - but you seem to have appointed yourself "king of distillation" and since I refuse to bow to any credential you personally attack me w/o any substance except your personal vitriol.

We all make errors and misjudgments, but you are adamant on your version of reality and reject the textbooks. WHAT IS A REBOILER vs DOUBLER ? What do you imagine is the composition of the condensate vs the vapor ? Perry's will tell you the answer, but when I state the obvious you reject it, and personally mock me ...
Though I will say that it is bad manners and unprofessional on my part and I do apologize for being a smarty pants.
This is the very closed-mindedness that prevents any learning. Admitting it is a great first step.
The line drawing posted has the short, flavored spirits column. The video at the beginning is the same layout with a taller vodka column. The process flow is identical for either system.
?Flavored? column I don't get that. The vid shows one tall column with 16+ plates(can't count) and a single kettle below that seems to side-feed it some distance up off the floor. That is pretty different from he drawing with 12&6 plates. where the kettle side-feeds a 6 plate column.
Yes the reboiler is a doubler / thumper. 1 plate value. The reboiler is set up to manage spirit column bottoms by sending surplus thumper juice back to the beer well when the max liquid level is achieved. Pre-charging the doubler on a continuous still seems pointless imo.
Terminology ! I *think* it's a classic doubler tho' with with multiple plates above as opposed to a whiskey doubler. If it's totally offline from the stripper (not continuous) maybe we could call it a reboiler but at 380l ... more like a batch pot. Without a pre-charge I *think* you'd get a rather erratic and long start-up. Those initial vapors go everywhere w/o temp or equilibrium control.

What exactly do you expect to gain from the "doubler"(whatev') that you wouldn't get from another plate ?
"There is a tangle of pipes and HXs in the drawing" A tangle stevea? ok.
I cannot parse the 2 or 3 HX and piping in the middle, and there are numerous unterminated taps at various spots. it makes operation quite confusing.

No the 12" beer column does appreciably better than an 800L feed rate. in fact it out paces the competitor's 14"
So ~40% high vapor velocity !??! That's very impressive. if you can keep separation up. Vendome & Barrison do ~1100+lph. Forsyth quite a bit less. My calcs show you might get ~1240lph thru a 14" at reasonable vapor velocity - but 207+kW in yow!

Anyway stevea, thank you for your recommendations. I do agree that sending the thumper juice back to the top of the beer column would be a more efficient circuit.
Yes - that's the most obvious issue (tho a bit pricey to implement).

I likely misunderstand some of your intentions with this system design, yet cannot get past the reboiler doubler dephleg' as a very weird decision that requires explanation. Do you intent to make neutral with a doubler & just 6 plates ? IIRC it takes 6 theoretical plates to reach neutral from 50%ABV.

I'm glad that we can discuss distillation - again. If you find my comments to be in error PLEASE provide some detail so that I can respond on topic. "Nya-ya stevea's wrong" gets us absolutely nowhere.
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