Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

We don’t condone the use of Continuous Stripping stills as a method of running 24/7 as this is a commercial setup only .
Home distillers should never leave any still run unattended and Continuous strippers should not be operated for longer periods than a Batch stripping session would typically be run to minimise operator fatigue..

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matjans
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Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

Output abv at ~50%ABV with 25-30L/h @2.5kW
Bottom temp in column stable at around 99.8-99.9C
Sugar wash at ~10% input, feeding from the top
Depending on setup 25-30 plates with holes, 2" column.
No steamer, the spent wash is used in the boiler and overflows into the sink. We do use a bit of anti foaming agent.

Built by a friend of mine, design based on the russian strippers.

[utube][/utube]

[utube][/utube]

Overview:
whole-setup.jpeg

Controller box, product exit cooler (from an alambiq) and pump
Controller-cooler.jpeg
Works like a charm, we use it about once a year. Up and running in about 6-7 minutes after power-on.The input sugar wash is cleared thoroughly and the low wines are redistilled in a boka with, as far as I'm concerned, very good results. Very clean and neutral, depending on how you run the boka, of course.
Last edited by matjans on Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another stripper, showing off :)

Post by LWTCS »

Nice.
Your power usage is practically consistent with what we've been discussing.
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matjans
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

More or less, yes. That's what you get from using basically the same design choices.
You do have to tweak the wash temperature and feed speed to get there though.

My friend built it and uses it, I just tag along for the ride :)
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by drmiller100 »

Awesome still!!!

A couple of things. Driving the waste to less than 1 percent etoh is frigging great. There is no way to do that with a pot still.

24 to 30 plates is what is needed to make this work. I use marbles which are also effective.

Note that the product coming off the top is the first distillation of the original 10 percent beer.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by bluc »

Very nice i have parts arriving to do same with 2.5" plate tree. 3600w steam gen.. :clap:
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by Yummyrum »

Is that 25 l/h beer feed rate or product takeoff rate ?

Any chance of a peek at the plates .
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

25-30L/h beer feed of course. 25l/h product take off at 2.5kW would get you a very well paid job at a random oil company.

No pics at the moment, but we use 30 plates, 30% holes of 5.3mm (laser cut), 4.5cm between plates and 0.15mm between plate and column wall. Top 2 plates have doubke spacing (~9cm)

Boiler has a level sensor that switches everything off when boiler level is low, temp sensors are stc1000 from ali.
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by Yummyrum »

matjans wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:58 pm 25-30L/h beer feed of course.
Thought so :ewink:
Just clarifying for the forum .
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

drmiller100 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:05 pm Driving the waste to less than 1 percent etoh is frigging great.
Keep in mind that the column builds a bit of pressure in the boiler (around 10-15cm water or roughly 10-15hPa), so boiling temperature increases a bit.

"After carefully calculating and measuring losses" ... Our best guestimate is a total max 5% loss of ethanol.

Taking into account yeast efficiency, sugar conversion rates, increased initial sg due to yeast nutrition, complicated sg measurement of spent feed due to anti foam agent etc it seems impossible (for me) to correctly calculate efficiency. And you do need a few liters to reach column stability and tweak settings during startup.

So in the end we just guestimated the amount of ethanol produced by fermentation and measured the amount retrieved with the boka (including fores and tails) and got to something like 5% waste in the stripper.

Well worth it.
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by Yummyrum »

Keen on some info about your beer feed , pump etc .
Do you manually adjust beer feed or is it automated , if so , what is the feedback based on ?
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

Manual adjust. Piston type with adjustable stroke.

I suggested a peristaltic pump for automation purposes but this one was available, and as we"re only using it once or twice a year there"s no use in automation (except for "because we can")

Iff I were to automate wash feed I guess bottom column temp (reflux temp) would be the only valid feedback mechanism as that is the only direct measurement of efficiency (ethanol waste), maybe together with boiler pressure (same as with a boka) and atmospheric pressure.

Easiest would be a peristaltic pump and a pid. You"d need to tune the PID for a slow loop carefully, the equilibrium for the column is quite volatile (cold crash or sub optimal).

Wash feed temperature varies with wash feed speed in this setup too (Liebig with bypass, Liebig is too efficient and boils the wash before it reaches the feed point) so you"ll have to think about that too.
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by LWTCS »

matjans wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:34 am
drmiller100 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:05 pm Driving the waste to less than 1 percent etoh is frigging great.
Keep in mind that the column builds a bit of pressure in the boiler (around 10-15cm water or roughly 10-15hPa), so boiling temperature increases a bit.

"After carefully calculating and measuring losses" ... Our best guestimate is a total max 5% loss of ethanol.

Taking into account yeast efficiency, sugar conversion rates, increased initial sg due to yeast nutrition, complicated sg measurement of spent feed due to anti foam agent etc it seems impossible (for me) to correctly calculate efficiency. And you do need a few liters to reach column stability and tweak settings during startup.

So in the end we just guestimated the amount of ethanol produced by fermentation and measured the amount retrieved with the boka (including fores and tails) and got to something like 5% waste in the stripper.

Well worth it.
Excellent. And also would like to say that this info again seems quite consistent.

I am curious about the plate count however. Firstly let me say that this is a lovely build.Not at all a criticism. More of a curiosity compared to what I am doing with respect to results.
Since this is a stripper rendering roughly 50% abv, I'm not quite clear why 30 plates is necessary? Notwithstanding the assurance of adequate dwell time, if the feed is injected at the top of the beer column, my observation is that no less than 9 plates are needed to liberate all of the usable alcohol.

I was wondering if you could talk about how you arrived at 30 plates for stripping only?
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

You're right, 30 isn't necessary. About 8 (or more) too many. Depending on your MO.

I based the design on one of the NSC threads on homedistiller.ru (a very very long thread), where they somewhere in the middle came to the conclusion that one perforated plate under non-ideal circumstances behaves like 0.4 TT.

Ie. no full bubblecap like behaviour with a few mm of distillate bubbling away (~1.0TT). I assumed that "non ideal" would probably be "normal operation" for me, hence the "design decisions" 😂😜.

9TT (yes) for full exhaustion of the wash, 9/0.4=22.5 bubble plates.

The rest is just because the pipe we had was long enough, 30 plates were just as expensive as 25 and shortening the pipe (straight) was more effort than welding it as it was.

So, theoretical background and some practical "engineering" ("dude, why not use all of them", "uhh, yeah, sure, why not")
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by LWTCS »

matjans wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:54 am You're right, 30 isn't necessary. About 8 (or more) too many. Depending on your MO.

I based the design on one of the NSC threads on homedistiller.ru (a very very long thread), where they somewhere in the middle came to the conclusion that one perforated plate under non-ideal circumstances behaves like 0.4 TT.

Ie. no full bubblecap like behaviour with a few mm of distillate bubbling away (~1.0TT). I assumed that "non ideal" would probably be "normal operation" for me, hence the "design decisions" 😂😜.

9TT (yes) for full exhaustion of the wash, 9/0.4=22.5 bubble plates.

The rest is just because the pipe we had was long enough, 30 plates were just as expensive as 25 and shortening the pipe (straight) was more effort than welding it as it was.

So, theoretical background and some practical "engineering" ("dude, why not use all of them", "uhh, yeah, sure, why not")

Indeed.
And a qualified practical response. Sometimes less is more and sometimes more doesn't hurt. Efficiency is measured in so many different ways when it come to distilling aye?
Thank you for your input.
Far more illuminating than 5 paragraphs of white board, eye crossing maths / minutia.
At some point a feller needs to put their money where their mouth is,,,,somebody said somewhere. Something about paralysis by analysis or some such?

What are you using to determine your feed rate? Bottoms temps?
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

Yep, bottom temp and boiler pressure. If the latter rises too fast (too much wash) the pressure in the boiler rises earlier than the temp drops, and the boiler pukes via the spent wash exit before ending up in a cold crash. If you then turn the wash feed down to quickly, the level sensor in the boiler trips and shuts the whole thing down (there's a bypass button for that on the controller).

The math is, for me at least, a necessary evil. Practice follows theory. Like it, don't love it enough... I did go throught the whole russian thread via g translate (also a challenge) and the excel sheets in there were quite enlightening.

Gin time! (What else to do with that neutral spirit :D )

For me, the fun of the continuous stripper is in designing and building (together). That, and not having to do 5 or 6 stripping runs per barrel, we now do 2x220L sugar wash stripping runs in a weekend once a year, whereas you'd need 10 or more stripping runs (total) as my potstill/Boka holds around 40L wash.

Making good (acceptable) neutral spirit is tedious and boring, and if we can spend less time making that and using the saved time to fool around with gin or other recipes, yay :)
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by bluc »

Any plans to run mash through it?
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

No. Tried, tested, gave up. Column is too small for that (not wide enough).

Foaming is an issue with sugar wash already, let alone protein containing rum wash/whisky mash. You need to clear and de-gass the sugarwash thoroughly (drill with paint mixer), and use an anti foaming agent to prevent "blowouts".

Wider column, increased inter plate distance, degassing and anti foam and you probably could. There's a cool movie with a big big bubble plate column in continuous mode doing rum from cdc, check that out and try and stuff the foam in a 2" column with 5cm interplatedistance :)
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by bluc »

Yea i have watched it looks awesome. I am hoping your wrong :crazy: . I am going slightly larger 2.5*" and 6mm holes 3.6kw steam generator. I will post results. (I have figured on having to use defoamer).
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

Nice. If you use less plates (say 9 or 10) with 10-15cm in between it might work :wtf:
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by Hügelwilli »

drmiller100 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:05 pmDriving the waste to less than 1 percent etoh is frigging great. There is no way to do that with a pot still.
The Scottish potstills are run below 1%abv in the vapor what means below 0.1%abv in the boiler. Regarding ethanol recovery potstills have all options.
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by bluc »

matjans wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:18 am Nice. If you use less plates (say 9 or 10) with 10-15cm in between it might work :wtf:
Why? too much power too fast feed rate. I would have thought more plates with bigger holes would be better then less plates with bigger gap....
Abv means nothing i mearly want to strip the alcohol..
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

The foam needs height to disappear. If the foam bubbles up to the next level, you'll end up with an "erupting" column.
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by Yummyrum »

Matjans
How many heat exchangers do you have in your beer feed ?
When I tried using just the product condenser it was really finicky . When I routed the beer back down to the waste beer and added an exchanger there too , it become a while lot more stable .
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

One, only the product condensor. That is (unfortunately) more than enough. We needed a bypass so the wash wouldn't arrive at the feed point too hot. Injection temp around 65C seems to work well.

Using another hx at the spent wash exit would only heat it up more, boiling the wash in the feed line :(

It should be possible to reuse more if the heat though somehow ..
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by LWTCS »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:57 am Matjans
How many heat exchangers do you have in your beer feed ?
When I tried using just the product condenser it was really finicky . When I routed the beer back down to the waste beer and added an exchanger there too , it become a while lot more stable .
matjans wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:57 am One, only the product condensor. That is (unfortunately) more than enough. We needed a bypass so the wash wouldn't arrive at the feed point too hot. Injection temp around 65C seems to work well.

Using another hx at the spent wash exit would only heat it up more, boiling the wash in the feed line :(

It should be possible to reuse more if the heat though somehow ..
How do we account for the discrepancy here?
On my system the act of recovering beer column bottoms heat also serves to cool the effluent for the sake of material handling safety. Don't want to melt any plastic drain pipe hahaha.
I shoot for an injection temp of 78C in theory. But, I don't know what the injection temp actually is since I don't use the injection temp as a target temp with which to run the still. I suppose I should at least monitor injection temps since it seems people want to know such things?

If cooling the effluent were a priority for you, I would say reduce the size (or dwell time) in the low wines condenser and then capture that heat on the bottoms HX further down on the beer circuit.

But if your beer injection temps are good and the still behaves nicely and effluent temps are not an issue then why bother.
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by bluc »

Providing the temp gradient is long enough on the beer pre heater what is the negative effect of beer boiling in the injection line. I plan on. 7m coiled liebig highly doubt its going to boil in pump or in first third of hx. Which will be before hx.

Have you played with rum or all grain using defoamer? You realise if you dont like silicone based defoamer you can use any fat...dairy cream/ butter ?...
Not doubting your ability just hoping all is not lost with mine half built.. :thumbup:
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

(When) the still behaves nicely and effluent temps are not an issue then why bother.
:ebiggrin: Exactly.

@bluc - not trying to discourage you :), have at it. Just posting my experience. Yes, we tried silicone based defoamer (struktol, food safe industrial defoamer), which works way better than any oil based stuff. And I don't want butter in my column :)

You'll get it to work. If it's steam based (ie injecting steam at the bottom in stead of boiling spent wash), great, one problem solved.

You'll have to play with plate distance and hole size, but I doubt you'll get to the 10L/kW/h rule of thumb for 2" strippers that seems to be valid for sugar washes.
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by matjans »

bluc wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:31 pm Providing the temp gradient is long enough on the beer pre heater what is the negative effect of beer boiling in the injection line.
Compare it with tossing a Mentos in a coke bottle. 5 times per second. The sudden increase in pressure in the supply line pushes out the rest into the column, or worse, or when the temperature drops by a degree half a meter down the feed line the alcohol gas suddenly condenses, pulling a vacuum.

All in all when it boils, you'll end up with a very unstable wash feed.
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by Yummyrum »

I’d agree with that matjans . I had similar issues with my stripper setup . I called it surge boiling and the beer could be seen blurting up the feed tube in pockets of gas and liquid .It made controlling it really difficult . Less than boiling is better .
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Re: Another stripper, 25L/h 2" 2.5kW ;)

Post by LWTCS »

Yeah not sure about positive displacement pumps. But it'll surely cause bad behavior with a centrifugal pump.
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