100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

We don’t condone the use of Continuous Stripping stills as a method of running 24/7 as this is a commercial setup only .
Home distillers should never leave any still run unattended and Continuous strippers should not be operated for longer periods than a Batch stripping session would typically be run to minimise operator fatigue..

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100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by tommysb »

I've been doing some experiments with continuous stripping stills, since seeing some examples from Dr Gradus (Russian manufacturer with a few youtube vids), and realising "Hey, I have almost all the parts he does! All I need is a (peristaltic) pump and some plumbing and I can jump onto the continuous still bandwagon! That's where the idea of it costing only 100euro comes from. The two pumps ad the speed controller.

I'll detail some of the observations and headaches/bottlenecks I hit here, as well as some observations about what I ran in my column (both plates and packing).

First, all of this is 'built' with off the shelf parts from Distillex (Aliexpress) and StillDragon (Eu). 4.5kW element on a variable voltage controller, and speed controllable peristaltic pumps (in parallel), rated at about 0.5L/min. So, if they were both running 100% efficient etc etc, theoretically I can push 60L/hour through this column on those pumps. In another thread, LWTCS metnions 408w/(US?)gallon/hour, so let's say we are ballpark at 408w/4l/Hour - call it 100w/L, theoretical max should be 45L/hour with everything running well.

Wash is fed in above the column (either plates or packing, you'll see below), and vapourised by the rising vapour from the boiler. The vapor passes through a small dephleg set up as a heat exchanger, which in turn warms the incoming wash.
re_IMG_20220612_192409_1.jpg
I'd been running with procaps, but getting flooding on the top plate, and the liquid level rising. Because the caps looked like this, when I stripped it down and had clogged with some debris that got into the wash:
re_IMG_20220612_174744.jpg
I was going to try running without caps, and thought about using just the plates with the 3 large holes:
re_IMG_20220612_180646.jpg
And thought 'oh it might just run through too quickly on that, I should put some copper scrubber above it.

So far I have just been playing around, and trying to understand how different parameters affect different things. My general finding so far, is that everything needs to be working well for the whole system to work. Input pump gets a bit gunked up? - failure. Plates get gunked up? Failure.

I took some videos of it running with different packings, so I'll make a separate post about that. I have run it with cheapish supermarket red wine (80c/Litre), and a rum wash from molasses so far.
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I'd remove all the plates and only have something to support the packing at the very bottom. Your packing looks loose and sparsely packed. Lots of air gaps between the packing and the glass from what I can see. To get maximum efficiency with your rig, you can fill it with structured packing like properly sized lava rock. Lava will fill the column perfectly and perform better than that corrugated copper mesh. I don't know what diameter your column is, but hopefully others have input on packing too.
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by Yummyrum »

I’d agree with Salt that packing the whole thing will be better than having the plates in there with a layer if packing .
But I have to say in my own finding , I found that SS scrubbers worked better for me . I suspect it was the thermal mass of the rocks I used took ages fir the still to stabilise and if I changed something like feedrate or power , it would again take ages to behave .
I think that you might want a taller packed section though , otherwise there will be a lit if Alcohol going out the waste pipe .

I also found that the still was extremely difficult to run until I added a heat exchanger to the bottoms discharge . Feeding the wash through the PC then down ti the bottoms HX then back up to the feed plate had it running very smoothly . Running with just the single HX was like sailing a boat with a broken rudder .

Regardless , thanks fir posting . It’s always good to see others having a go at these strippers .
BTW , I’m curious about the feed point you have .
Can you show a close up of it .
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by tommysb »

Was trying to get some videos uploaded of the various iterations I went through, as the best I got it running was not the setup that I showed in that first pic.

No luck with the videos, but I will document the stages and issues I had with each setup, maybe with some sketches. If anyone can suggest a secure way to send the vids, I will try yo upload them. I have posted some screencaps from the videos.

Setup1: what's shown in the picture in first post.

Plates, with loosely packed copper scrubbies on top.

With this setup, the wash held up too much on the top plate with high power, and bubbled up to interfere with incoming wash. The pressue of the rising vapour made it hard to the wash to descent past each plate.
IMG_20220617_114906.jpg
Screenshot at 2022-06-17 12-00-40.png
Setup 2. two plates, so there's a bigger space between each, around 20cm (8"), and slightly denser packing. I also added an extension between the wash input and the column.
IMG_20220617_114922.jpg
Still, the wash was basically just held up on the plate, and I felt like the bottom half of the column wasn't being used. The Screenshot I took from a video doesn't show clearly, but there were three holes in the plates, and wash was only passing through one of them, and 'pulsing', as being stopped by the rising pressure of the vapour. Basically, the bottom half of the column was acting like an extension over the boiler, not useful column,
output-onlinepngtools(2).png
Setup 3:
No plates, more packing.
I added some spp (i didn't have enough coper to fill the column), and removed all the plates. I really didn't like the way the wash was pulsing/surging/having difficulty passing the plates in the previous setup.
IMG_20220617_114935.jpg
This was by far the most effective setup yet, with more of a gradient of liquid in the column. It still seemed denser at the bottom, However I felt that the whole column was being employed.
output-onlinepngtools(3).png
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by tommysb »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:29 pm
I also found that the still was extremely difficult to run until I added a heat exchanger to the bottoms discharge . Feeding the wash through the PC then down to the bottoms HX then back up to the feed plate had it running very smoothly . Running with just the single HX was like sailing a boat with a broken rudder .

Regardless , thanks fir posting . It’s always good to see others having a go at these strippers .
BTW , I’m curious about the feed point you have .
Can you show a close up of it .
@Yummyrum, I read your thread in detail, and again once I'd played with the column. It makes a lot more sense after trying things myself, and I went through many similar experiences to you, I think.

I am losing a lot of heat energy in the wash output, so, I think the heat exchanger to preheat the wash more is a great idea, it will just require a bit of engineering work to get it running and plumbed in.
Screenshot at 2022-06-17 11-50-15.png
Here is a close up of the input. It's actually rectification part turned upside down.
Screenshot at 2022-06-17 12-24-52.png
I don't like that this also causes a constriction around the cup in the rising vapour path, where fluid can get caught.

I am still playing with performance and extraction efficiency. This is supposed to be a stripping still, so when I have stuff coming out at 60-70%, I feel I am 'over doing it', and using more resources than necessary.
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by Yummyrum »

Thanks for all the update posts Tommy .
I’m amazed you are pulling 60-70%abv . Can't say I ever got much more than about 55-60% , but then I was using 10% or lower ABV wash .

The inverted collection cup as a feeder makes sense . Thanks for that . :thumbup:

How did the Molasses was work for you?
I found it foamed up like a bastard and needed constant addition of anti-foam agent to keep it under control .

What Parasteltic pumps are you using ?
I’m keen to get back to this and the pump was my final let down . Like you , I considered the use of parallel pumps but read that its not the best option so gave up . But I’m pleased you have trued it .
Whats your thoughts and experience with it as I still think it's a viable way to achieve the feed rate I’m thinking about but using commonly available pumps
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by tommysb »

Molasses worked 'fine' for me, at least much better than the foaming nightmares I have read about here! I think a couple of things worked in my favour.

I was regularly dosing antifoam at a decent rate. Every time I topped up the 20l input bucket, I would add a drop or two of antifoam. The stuff I'm using has a use rate of 20-50ml/1000L.

The ferment had been sitting out, in an open fermenter for a while, so a lot of CO2 in it had a chance to degas.

The wash was pumped into the input bucket through a hosepipe head, which caused turbulence driving out more CO2.

This is the perastaltic pump I am using, along with a PWM speed controller. If i was to do it again, I would use a stepper motor on the pumps, as I don't imagine there's a linear relationship between the PWM controller output% and the actual flow of liquid delivered. A stepper driver allows you to control the precise rate of rotations of the pump.
Screenshot at 2022-06-17 14-07-45.png
I used parallel pumps to 1) increase the feedrate (saw somewhere else that 2 pumps doesn't double the rate though), 2) provide some redundancy (if one clogs or fails I can continue the run) and 3) try to smooth the flow of liquid (surges in delivery are offset slightly).

Downsides: small diameter tubing might not allow solids. I would LOVE to be able to strip on the grain eventually. (My packing doesn't allow solid either).
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by LWTCS »

Yeah those bubble caps are just not the best solution for stripping on the continuous. The turndown ratio kinda does an "about face" by allowing for too much dwell time in the column.
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by LWTCS »

I am still playing with performance and extraction efficiency. This is supposed to be a stripping still, so when I have stuff coming out at 60-70%, I feel I am 'over doing it', and using more resources than necessary.

Not really.
In order to get your proof down you'll need to try and get your alcohol to flash ( there is that flash word again stevea) as close to the top of the stripper column as possible. Doing so would actually require more heat input and potentially more cooling capacity. Or, more dwell time at the top. In which case you would need to reduce your feed rate.

Once your beer starts to migrate down the length of your column it will start to experience multiple phase change cycles. This is what is driving up the proof. It is an example of a positive feedback loop. In this case doing less ends up being more haha.
Doug has tried to discuss this phenomenon with stevea in other threads but didn't seem to be able to find the right words to break through stevea's white board logic.

The solution to solving this problem of too proofy low wines is to have a spirit side of the continuous system that further allows for target temp management on the reboiler/doubler and configure as a pot still. If set up correctly finished product can be collected anywhere from 114 to 130 ish. More or less the target abv for barrel resting bourbon.
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by tommysb »

LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:36 am Yeah those bubble caps are just not the best solution for stripping on the continuous. The turndown ratio kinda does an "about face" by allowing for too much dwell time in the column.
Could you clarify what you mean by 'about face'? I am not familiar with the phrase!

LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:47 am I am still playing with performance and extraction efficiency. This is supposed to be a stripping still, so when I have stuff coming out at 60-70%, I feel I am 'over doing it', and using more resources than necessary.

Not really.
In order to get your proof down you'll need to try and get your alcohol to flash ( there is that flash word again stevea) as close to the top of the stripper column as possible. Doing so would actually require more heat input and potentially more cooling capacity. Or, more dwell time at the top. In which case you would need to reduce your feed rate.
Ok, this makes a lot of sense. It explains what I was experiencing, where counter-intuitively, the lowest proof offtake seemed to be at lowest feed rates, i was getting maybe 25-30% on minimum settings (feed rate and lower power). I suppose this was 'flashing' straight away.

My thinking was that if i upped the feed rate (and power), the proof would go down as there was less 'average column dwell time per unit wash'(tm). Everything is run by feel, but basically every time I up the input power, I up the feed rate. The idea of the (average) flashing point taking place further down the column explains the higher ABV.

Upping the feed rate also reduces wash input temperature, as there's less time for heat exchange. This is another good argument for the use of another exchanger on the output, as Yummyrum suggested and I am sure would help stabilise temperatures and running a bit more.

LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:47 am The solution to solving this problem of too proofy low wines is to have a spirit side of the continuous system that further allows for target temp management on the reboiler/doubler and configure as a pot still. If set up correctly finished product can be collected anywhere from 114 to 130 ish. More or less the target abv for barrel resting bourbon.
Could I have seen a diagram of a system like this that you did for a customer in another thread, the 20 plate column thread? I am a bit confused about the idea of operation in this setup as a pot still though. Are you suggesting waiting for the reboiler to accumulate enough low wines, and then batch distil?

In the other thread, it was being sent through a fractioning column, and product being drawn at various levels, if I am not mistaken. I REALLY dig the idea of feeding the feints from the heads back into the wash being continuously stripped to improve efficiency.

Thanks for talking this through with me Yummyrum and LWTCS, it helps my understanding a lot.
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by LWTCS »

Could you clarify what you mean by 'about face'? I am not familiar with the phrase!

Sorry.
Well on a system (like batch) the bubble cap plate system would ordinarily provide a nice wide operating range. Specifically, the bubble caps can be run very softly without fear of "dumping" the liquid bed. Bubble caps can be run far more softly compared to any other plate (actual or theoretical) system.
But on a continuous beer column that ability can become kind of a liability as it allows for too much dwell time and will slow down a more desired feed rate.


My thinking was that if i upped the feed rate (and power), the proof would go down as there was less 'average column dwell time per unit wash'(tm). Everything is run by feel, but basically every time I up the input power, I up the feed rate. The idea of the (average) flashing point taking place further down the column explains the higher ABV.


Increased feed rate and heat is fine if your beer column has a nice wide operating range.
If not, then increasing heat only will get your proof down.
Increasing heat and feed with less than optimal operating range will make the beer column puke.
But certainly you will need to find that threshold.

Could I have seen a diagram of a system like this that you did for a customer in another thread, the 20 plate column thread? I am a bit confused about the idea of operation in this setup as a pot still though. Are you suggesting waiting for the reboiler to accumulate enough low wines, and then batch distil?

Yes. I have posted on one or more of those continuous threads.
The concept is simple really.
Low wines from the beer column is sent to a reboiler ( just think kettle), re-vaporized and sent upward through a spirit column. Either short or tall column.
Higher reflux ratios do allow for more liquid accumulation in the thumper. Therefore the thumper is set up with max/min liquid level sensors and automatically pumped down when the liquid level reaches max fill. Surplus thumper juice goes back to the beer well to be recirculated through the system again.
The spirit column allows for collection of product off of any plate level.
The product is drawn off as liquid. This allows (some) heads to continue up the column in vapor form to be vented off at the top of the column.
By the way, using bubble caps on the spirit column are optimal for collecting product.

Operating as a pot still I would collect product at plate #1
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by The Baker »

Could you clarify what you mean by 'about face'? I am not familiar with the phrase!

As in military drill.

You turn to face in the opposite direction.
So it means you are going in the opposite direction to before; you are doing the opposite thing.

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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by bluc »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:29 pm I also found that the still was extremely difficult to run until I added a heat exchanger to the bottoms discharge . Feeding the wash through the PC then down ti the bottoms HX then back up to the feed plate had it running very smoothly . Running with just the single HX was like sailing a boat with a broken rudder
So by adding a second hx to the mash preheater path = hotter beer going in to still. So a more effecient mash preheater/ hx would be beneficial correct?
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by LWTCS »

bluc wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:45 pm
Yummyrum wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:29 pm I also found that the still was extremely difficult to run until I added a heat exchanger to the bottoms discharge . Feeding the wash through the PC then down ti the bottoms HX then back up to the feed plate had it running very smoothly . Running with just the single HX was like sailing a boat with a broken rudder
So by adding a second hx to the mash preheater path = hotter beer going in to still. So a more effecient mash preheater/ hx would be beneficial correct?
Yes.
Although one of the other fellows did mention on one of the continuous threads that he had a harder time with a pair of preheaters.
Any time you can recover heat to get your beer that much closer to an optimal injection temp is good. You'll conserve heat input and get more compliant behavior.
That is to say you'll get better behavior as long as off gassing (particularly from rum washes) doesn't create a puking condition in the column.

Degassing and adding some type of anti foam to the feed can be very helpful.
Precise pump control is also really helpful.
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by Yummyrum »

bluc wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:45 pm
Yummyrum wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:29 pm I also found that the still was extremely difficult to run until I added a heat exchanger to the bottoms discharge . Feeding the wash through the PC then down ti the bottoms HX then back up to the feed plate had it running very smoothly . Running with just the single HX was like sailing a boat with a broken rudder
So by adding a second hx to the mash preheater path = hotter beer going in to still. So a more effecient mash preheater/ hx would be beneficial correct?
Bluc
Imagine a PC on a normal still . When you adjust the coolant flow through it ,if its too fast , it comes out cool , too slow , it comes out nearly boiling .

Now , on a continuous stripper your beer feed is going to be your coolant .Again depending on coolant flow ( beer feed rate ) , it’s going to end up somewhere between cold and boiling when it hits the column . You definitely don’t want cool beer hitting the column .

But if you then run it through the bottoms HX as well , which has fluid at 100°C leaving it , it seems to hold the feed temp closer to ideal .

I can’t answer why . Just seems to clamp it at the happy spot . Maybe its a 20°C delta thing with heat exchanges

Just what I found .
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by stevea »

LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:47 am I am still playing with performance and extraction efficiency. This is supposed to be a stripping still, so when I have stuff coming out at 60-70%, I feel I am 'over doing it', and using more resources than necessary.

Not really.
In order to get your proof down you'll need to try and get your alcohol to flash ( there is that flash word again stevea) as close to the top of the stripper column as possible. Doing so would actually require more heat input and potentially more cooling capacity. Or, more dwell time at the top. In which case you would need to reduce your feed rate.

Once your beer starts to migrate down the length of your column it will start to experience multiple phase change cycles. This is what is driving up the proof. It is an example of a positive feedback loop. In this case doing less ends up being more haha.
Doug has tried to discuss this phenomenon with stevea in other threads but didn't seem to be able to find the right words to break through stevea's white board logic.

The solution to solving this problem of too proofy low wines is to have a spirit side of the continuous system that further allows for target temp management on the reboiler/doubler and configure as a pot still. If set up correctly finished product can be collected anywhere from 114 to 130 ish. More or less the target abv for barrel resting bourbon.
WOW - I really am living rent-free in your head huh, Larry ? EVERY thread I've seen today (after weeks away) you've spent time denigrating me personally and in an insulting way. That is un-becoming to you and deviates (IMO) from the intention of this forum which I interpret to be abt small scale distilling.. Get a grip - I'm reporting this one as another intentional personal insult.

THIS is what *flash* means wrt physical chemistry of distillation:
http://facstaff.cbu.edu/rprice/lectures/flash.html

If you prefer to use the term for some other phenomena (as you clearly do) then please choose a new name since you are confusing the topic by inventing new personal definitions that do not correspond to any standard usage. Please read a book on this topic sometime. You would avoid several gaffes with a little more knowledge.

PLEASE, let' get back to the topic (distilling) and stop your personal attacks.
===
Yes , no one doubts that reflux of the beer/wash travelling down the column causes the plate ABV and corresponding equilibrium vapor mole-fraction to increase. That is the CENTRAL point of distillation. it's NOT "flash" (which is the instantaneous vaporization by pressure reduction).

I'm not sure WHY "too proofy low wines" is a problem in this case, but OK - they (for some reason) want ~50%ABV off the stripper - FINE.
So ...
>> The solution to solving this problem... is to have a spirit side of the continuous system that further allows for target temp management on the reboiler/doubler and configure as a pot still.

Well a reboiler is decidedly NOT a doubler (more of these personal definitions that don't correspond with any other source use). Product ABV by adjusting the temperature at a later disconnected phase (w/o reflux). That's like saying you control the mail delivery by checking your mailbox more often. I refer to your continuous 12" diagram & comments. That stripper & "target temp management" spirit column are almost disconnected except by intermittent overflow pumps to a beer-well, You might want to note that a reboiler appears at the VERY BOTTOM of any still (see Perry ChemE Handbook) , while a whiskey-doubler is a powered re-distillation near the top at the top, NO a "pot still" is not "continuous" you are mixing concepts very badly & confusingly. You cannot impact the stripper product with any downstream-no-feedback event.

There are two main factors that impact the (continuous/equilibrium) operation of a continuous still, for a given feed&feed quality. These are the number of plates (above and below feed-pt) , and the reflux rate. To reduce stripper product ABV you might reduce the number of plates, which certainly reduces product ABV concentration. You might also adjust the reflux ratio - but the impact of RR is not so trivial to calculate and you must understand exactly where you operate on the VLE curve.
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by LWTCS »

Well a reboiler is decidedly NOT a doubler (more of these personal definitions that don't correspond with any other source use). 

Really? Ok sir.
This type of response is in essence the source of my attitude.

A reboiler and a doubler can indeed be the same thing.
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by LWTCS »

Also, I'm probably not going to change the context with which I employ the word flash. You'll just have to get used to it. No one ever seems to get confused when this general term is used. Except for you that is.

I use the word flash as in flash point. Not flash distilling.
Flash point is the minimum temperature at which a liquid forms a vapor above its surface. Basically the moment alcoholic vapor is put into suspension within the apparatus when heat is applied.

I have no idea why the use of a single word used in more than one context seem so disruptive? We see this type of use of language all the time? Including relevant source material.
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by LWTCS »

Well a reboiler is decidedly NOT a doubler (more of these personal definitions that don't correspond with any other source use). but the doubler in my design is a reboiler. Are you so argumentative that you you refuse to acknowledge the actual definition of what a reboiler does?

Product ABV by adjusting the temperature at a later disconnected phase (w/o reflux). That's like saying you control the mail delivery by checking your mailbox more often. I refer to your continuous 12" diagram & comments. I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here? But yes abv can be influenced by the heat input at the doubler/reboiler.That is not a theorized answer. That is power management.

That stripper & "target temp management" spirit column are almost disconnected except by intermittent overflow pumps to a beer-well, You might want to note that a reboiler appears at the VERY BOTTOM of any still (see Perry ChemE Handbook) , while a whiskey-doubler is a powered re-distillation near the top at the top,
Oh for the love of pearls

NO a "pot still" is not "continuous" you are mixing concepts very badly & confusingly. Ill try and do a better job with that. My reference to the pot still was supposed to be the opposite of confuse with respect to the operator's mind set. In other words the second half of the system should be regarded by the operator as a basic kettle and column. Notwithstanding a few probes, automatic valves and a pump, that's all it actually is. See pic on the other thread. It's right next to the tangle.

You cannot impact the stripper product with any downstream-no-feedback event. I don't think I said that at all?


I do apologize to the OP for side tracking this thread with multiple references to a system not pictured in this thread
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Re: 100e Stripping still (clickbait), and plate/packing observations.

Post by drmiller100 »

I found 25 gallins per hour, 4000 watts in a 4 inch column with marbles was about max. Plates you could probably run more gph. Scrubbies probably less.

Heat exchangers. You have a condenser to knock down the vapors at the top. Use your incoming beer to preheat it.

Take your out going wash and run it through a counter flow exchanger and your beer will be boiling as it enters the column.

Whatever the first boiling of your beer determines the etoh concentration of your product. In other words, if you feed 10 percent etoh into your stripper, you will get a max of 50 percent etoh out the top.

The COOL thing is it is easy to get under 1 percent etoh waste out the bottom of the boiler.

Add a reasonably tall reflux column on top of your stripper, and a few odds and ends, and you will have my continuous still!!!!
25 gph beer, , 2 to 2.5 gallons 190 proof per hour.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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