Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:33 am

zapata wrote:Derwo, a grain is a unit of weight, 15.4 grains to a gram. Don't known if that is what was being referenced, but it is a thing. Only used for amunition these days so far as I've ever heard it.

http://Www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_(unit)

Yes. It sounds a bit strange, that they use this unit. But the abbreviation of gram is g, not gr. Ok you can find in supermarkets for example boxes with cereals "500gr", and it means 500 gram of course. But in a scientific context not older than 30 years I don't think they would abbreviate gram with gr. Does anyone know, if also mgr or kgr instead of mg or kg is used somewhere?
For sure 1600 gram/laa doesn't make sense. 1600g esters per 789g ethanol. More than twice esters than alcohol. This also would mean mean, that such a Rum at 40% would have almost no water. And esters are toxic. No way to drink voluntarily a teaspoon of such a mixture.
And gram/hlaa? Here the quoted ester counts would sound very low. A Rum with over 300 "gr/laa" is already not easy to drink. But 300gram/hlaa would mean, there is not so much difference to other alcoholic drinks.
And ppm? Same problem like g/hlaa, but even more: ppm would be around 5 times lower than gram/hlaa.

That's why for me grain is the only logical explanation. The other options aren't plausible.

Edit: Probably wrong. Probably it means gram per 100 liter absolute alcohol.
Last edited by der wo on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby Shine0n » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:01 am

This thread has I think the best concentration of info of any on the forum on high esters for rums. The best part are the links to read that can be found on a single thread instead of looking endlessly over the forum.

Thanks der wo for starting this as it will help many on the quest for high ester rum without having to go crazy looking all over the place.

My pit is without a doubt a cest pool of bacteria and I have no way of knowing what is in it other than what I've put there and mother nature of course, I do know that it adds a fair bit of complexity to my rums. I do not add to my washes instead the addition goes into the low wines for a spirit run.

This way I can control the amount of "flavoring" to a degree in my final spirit, Odin's experiment with the addition has landed me on no more than 25% muck total volume and has worked well for me.

I have been thinking more of adding 10% to my wash around day 3 before fermentation has finished to add to the flavors but I'm afraid of my fermenter being unusable after except or with infected washes.

I'm reading about the heads for esters and wonder how I've read before on rums most speak of the tails "oils" are a main contributing factor, I do rerun all my heads minus the fores in the following batch and along with the tails, I think that's why I get such good flavors. I do this run after run, can there be a limit on how much before you get negative effects from them?
Will they become more and more and you lose more hearts due to them?

We as hobbyists have come along way and have the luxury of such experiments unlike the big boys, I think it's good for us to do so and have a place to post our experience either failure or success and teach and learn from each other's experiences.

Sticky this thread mods, there's more info here than any other single thread on these subjects.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby distiller_dresden » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:51 am

"I have no way of knowing what is in it"

Hey ShineOn, this isn't true! I bet someone at a college biology lab could identify the life in there pretty easily, just the trick of trust or the story, "My friend has been making rum for years, he has this, man, this freaking PIT and I keep telling him it ain't natural... Can you test this for me so we can see what he's got growing in that muck pit? I mean it's been going for years like those ones in Jamaica, it's crazy."

I also run my heads and tails in my follow up runs of the same liquor, since I don't do the double distillation strip run/spirit run due to my thump keg.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:57 am

Damn. I just see online another bottle of the "Habitation Velier" series, the Forsyths 2006 Worthy Park, and the ester count on the bottle is 209.3 gr/hlpa. Hectoliter pure alcohol. The other bottles are gr/laa... Now I am really confused. I think about if I made a calculating mistake. Calculating again or simply contact Habitation Velier? Or Worthy Park or Hampden? When I contact them I will write to a salesman probably, he will have no answer probably.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby Birrofilo » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:59 am

This is a very interesting discussion.
I put in some speculation that might be of interest.
The general idea, so far, if I understand well, is that yeasts cannot produce the amount of acetic acid which must be present in order to form all the esters which can be observed in a high-ester rum.
On the other hand, if the acetic acid is produced by acetic bacteria, the question becomes what is that prevents acetic bacteria from consuming all the alcohol once they have the right terrain conditions and begin doing it.

I think the explanation might be a different one. Wild yeasts can behave in very different manner, and different strains of wild yeast can produce alcohols in vastly different proportions.

In a recent document it was suggested that methanol poisoning occurring in Africa, Bangladesh etc. (high temperature fermentations) might be the result not of tampering with the final product with industrial methanol, but by an "anomalous" fermentation that creates a huge amount of methanol as compared to the usual, tiny amounts. The suggestion by the paper was that, next time such poisoning case happens, it is important to go examine the microbiology of vessels and instruments to see whether the fermentation was carried on by some wild strain producing an anomalous fermentation.
This hypothesis was suggested also by the circumstance that, in certain methanol poisoning cases, there was no economic incentive in adding methanol, rather than ethanol, to the beverage. So, besides sheer idiocy which is always a possibility, the anomalous fermentation was also considered and it was suggested as a real possibility.

The 1909 paper gives for granted that the yeasts cannot produce the amount of acetic acid which creates the esters in high-ester rums but, again, that's base on what normal strains of yeasts normally do. Also, yeasts have been observed, for the most, in European or USA climate and not in tropical climates.

Could it be that the particular conditions in which high-ester mash is prepared (contamination creating a different terrain, high temperature, wild strains in action) favour the proliferation of some different, high-ester producing strain of yeast?

In biology we cannot really give for granted anything. There is no law of nature whereby a yeast must produce high amounts of ethanol and small amounts of congeners. Can't there be some wild yeast strain who, instead, produce a much greater than usual amount of acetic acid, and then some other strains who produce a high amount of esters?

Just my thought.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:16 am

Birrofilo wrote:The general idea, so far, if I understand well, is that yeasts cannot produce the amount of acetic acid which must be present in order to form all the esters which can be observed in a high-ester rum.
On the other hand, if the acetic acid is produced by acetic bacteria, the question becomes what is that prevents acetic bacteria from consuming all the alcohol once they have the right terrain conditions and begin doing it. Correct

I think the explanation might be a different one. Wild yeasts can behave in very different manner, and different strains of wild yeast can produce alcohols in vastly different proportions. Yes. Fusel alcohols. But you need additional acids for more esters.

In a recent document it was suggested that methanol poisoning occurring in Africa, Bangladesh etc... I think it were criminals like always when someone dies of methanol poisoning.

The 1909 paper gives for granted that the yeasts cannot produce the amount of acetic acid which creates the esters in high-ester rums but, again, that's base on what normal strains of yeasts normally do. Also, yeasts have been observed, for the most, in European or USA climate and not in tropical climates.

Could it be that the particular conditions in which high-ester mash is prepared (contamination creating a different terrain, high temperature, wild strains in action) favour the proliferation of some different, high-ester producing strain of yeast? If yes, they would have found out. The heavy Rum producers all have a laboratory. They can analyze the wash and the distillate. There are studies about Rum yeast strains.

I think, like everywhere on earth, also in Jamaica a wild ferment will sooner or later turn acetic by acetic bacterias.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:05 pm

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Ester ... nce_Fruity
For example, the acetate ester level in beers fermented with four different Weizen strains ranged from 25 to 46 ppm in one particular experiment, and it varied from 26 to 45 ppm with eight bottom-fermenting strains

Esters are also an important part of the profile of strong lagers; the Bavarian lager EKU 28 has 68 ppm of ethyl acetate, for example, which is more than many ales


So a normal beer contains 25ppm esters. 25ppm = 2.5g/hl. 1 hl with 5%abv contains 5l alcohol. This means 2.5g/5laa = 50g/hlaa. Or 0.5g/laa. 0.5g/laa is incredible low. hlaa sounds way more likely, but too high IMO.

http://alcbevtesting.com/wp-content/upl ... edding.pdf
Total esters (of which eth. acetate is the most common) quite high in Am whiskies (970 ppm.), Irish whiskies (808 ppm.), French Brandy (630-980 ppm.), Heavy rum (1584-2700 ppm.) and Jamaican rums (1732) ppm.

2700ppm = 270g/hl. If this heavy Rum has 45% alcohol, it means 270g/45laa = 600g/hlaa. And 600 is the maximum, what they sell for drinking pure. The 1600gr/(h)laa is only for blending or food industry, fragrances...
So g/hlaa sounds quite likely...

And this means, that a 2700ppm or 600g/laa -Rum contains only three times more esters than Bourbon and only 12 times more than beer (per alcohol). I am a bit disappointed. I thought it was more. :(
And a low ester Rum contains way less esters (1/4?) than Bourbon and similar esters like beer.
But Bourbons are very different. I am sure, that for example a Bulleit has way more ethylacetate than a Blantons. Whatever. It's only numbers.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby Birrofilo » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:20 pm

I post here the document speculatively linking Methanol poisoning not to unscrupulous conmen but to anomalous fermentation, or anomalous combination of various microbes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5028366/

The purpose of this link is to indicate that a fermentation can be so anomalous as to give a totally unexpected final result, especially when wild fermentation and high temperatures are concerned.

I agree that, in an industrial or in any way modern commercial setup, it would be normal for the rum producer to investigate thourougly the kind of microbes feeding in their vessels. If the product quality is repeatable, then the mixture of micro-organisms which ferment the wash can be constant, and can be known.

But nowhere in the thread it was suggested that the rum producer doesn't know where does banana flavour in Rum come from ;)

Regarding additional acids, can it be that acids are recovered from dunder and slurry, and therefore have the potential to accumulate from one run to the next, and so are available for the production of esters without the need of a biological agent producing them in great quantity?
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:41 pm

Birrofilo wrote:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5028366/

The purpose of this link is to indicate that a fermentation can be so anomalous as to give a totally unexpected final result, especially when wild fermentation and high temperatures are concerned.
But even if it's true, the wild yeast still produced alcohol. Methanol is an alcohol. An acid is something much more different.

But nowhere in the thread it was suggested that the rum producer doesn't know where does banana flavour in Rum come from ;) I think they know everything. But don't tell.

Regarding additional acids, can it be that acids are recovered from dunder and slurry, and therefore have the potential to accumulate from one run to the next, and so are available for the production of esters without the need of a biological agent producing them in great quantity? Yes. Dunder contains acids. But to get acetic esters, your dunder must contain much acetic acid. Does your dunder smell like vinegar? Mine not. And acetic esters make up 95% of the esters according to the link of SaltyStaves.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby Shine0n » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:47 pm

I have manipulated my yeast to create an ester, it was just common bread yeast and it happened on accident. My aquarium heater malfunctioned and heated up the wash to 135ish°f, I turned it off and let cool. When I ran the wash it had the most amazing smell and flavors of sweet butter which is still my best rum ever, no banana sadly but still good.

I keep my rum washes around 90°f and when fermentation is full blast it can raise the temp to 100°f+.
Not sure if anything happens at that temp because when I strip it I add dunder for the spirit run. If I do a single run with thumper I heat the wash to 135 for a couple hours and let cool over night, the next day I'll run it to capture the buttery flavors.

There are some Belgium ale yeasts that have the banana esters during normal fermentation temps so maybe their on to something.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby Birrofilo » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:32 pm

der wo wrote:Yes. Dunder contains acids. But to get acetic esters, your dunder must contain much acetic acid. Does your dunder smell like vinegar? Mine not. And acetic esters make up 95% of the esters according to the link of SaltyStaves.


Yes, but - just to understand - if in a high-ester rum esters total something like 1500 parts per 100.000 of alcohol in the final product, that would mean - if I get it right, which is not sure at all - that a minuscule percentage quantity of acids in the dunder, even without detectable smell, could be sufficient to produce the minuscule quantity of esters in the final product, which is in absolute very small, even if it is comparatively high in high-ester rum.

Dunder, for what I know - I am in the process of assembling my first still, I go fetch my custom-made kettle thursday :D - is pretty acid as it is used to clean copper mesh. So acids might come from dunder, and the esters might come from the particular yeast strains in action in the vessel of the rum producer (helped by temperature) without the need of acetic bacteria working in the mash, that was my line of thought.

Which leads me to suspect that the idea of injecting acid into the wort in order to create a high-ester product (and the banana flavour) might work - given an appropriate yeast strain - without the need of an acetic "infection", which would be difficult to control - probably difficult also for a commercial producer.

The pellicle on top of the fermentation vessel might be due to some other microorganism than acetic bacteria. Actually the pellicle might protect the mash from acetic infection.

It's all very interesting and I don't think I grasped the entire complexity of the matter, though.

As a side note, the text says: "If an organic acid such as acetic acid is allowed to remain in contact with alcohol, a certain amount of the alcohol and acid will combine and form acetic ether".
If esters are formed by merely chemical reactions - without the need of a microbial entity - then wouldn't it be theoretically possible to create the esters aside - just combining acetic acid and alcohol in the case of acetic ester - and then putting it in the final product? Wouldn't a high-ester rum be made by assembling the esters with the rum? What am I missing?

[I was editing the "side note" while the next message was appearing]
Last edited by Birrofilo on Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby distiller_dresden » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:32 pm

Otis posted this in my rum thread, he can reproduce the buttery ester on demand:

Hi Dresden. I have found I can re-produce a Buttery flavor almost any time by using all Bakers Yeast with a Hot/Fast Ferment. I got the same "Butter' in AG whiskeys, Sugar Heads and Rums with this yeast/temp combo (all w/o dunder involved, though some used Feints in the spirit run wash). Not sure if this contributed to the butter but in each case, before I pitched yeast, I added Vit B, I adjusted PH up to 5.5 and I aerated the hell out of the ferment. Also, I covered the barrel to prevent most air flow and I never touched the ferment (no added Oxygen) once started until it was finished.

This buttery smell stuck around through two pot distillations as well as a Strip/light Fraction distillation. The Bakers yeast I used was Bob's Red Mill bakers yeast and I pitched near 85 F in an insulated fermenter. Temps would climb initially up near 100 F between 18-24 hours then would slowly cool off. I would typically leave my fermenter only partially insulated until the temp begins to drop, then I would fully insulate for the remainder. Usually, fermenting was done in less than 3 days.

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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby Shine0n » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:45 pm

I'm not sure about the yeast he uses, mine is fleischmann's active bread yeast. I've not seen his brand and maybe they're the same yeast packaged by different companies.?.?.?

My ferments always reach 100f easily when active and I get a buttery note as well but reaching 135 has some very strong affect on the yeast and the buttery flavors are like a bomb in your mouth.

Still not bananas!!! 《- topic. lol
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby distiller_dresden » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:48 pm

When it comes down to it... bread yeast is probably bread yeast, it's gotta be, when you think about it.

What brand or kind of aquarium heater do you use that gets that high? I just got a new one that maxes out at 94, and I didn't see any that went higher.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby butterpants » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:00 pm

distiller_dresden wrote:"I have no way of knowing what is in it"

Hey ShineOn, this isn't true! I bet someone at a college biology lab could identify the life in there pretty easily, just the trick of trust or the story, "My friend has been making rum for years, he has this, man, this freaking PIT and I keep telling him it ain't natural... Can you test this for me so we can see what he's got growing in that muck pit? I mean it's been going for years like those ones in Jamaica, it's crazy."

I also run my heads and tails in my follow up runs of the same liquor, since I don't do the double distillation strip run/spirit run due to my thump keg.
This would be fairly complicated and a decent amount of man hours. Tons of subculturing on different media to isolate everything then RFLP/PCR for species level identification. If you didn't have the molecular bio equipment, sending isolates out for assay would be expensive.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby distiller_dresden » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:54 pm

If you found the right student, say someone who could use the results to publish a paper on the biological make-up of a dunder pit, given that it's sort of a hot topic right now, that is distilling, and rum, and dunder/muck pit mystery in general. Maybe he could even contact the journalist of the article I found and see if she had any contacts to do the assay spread to analyze the full sample.

I'd be happy to do the leg work with a jug of his dunder pit so I could work contacts and also use a cup of it as a seed for my newborn pit to take flight...
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:48 am

ShineOn,
Not everything what smells is an ester. I think the buttery smell is off-topic.
And "only yeast, no bacteria" is off-topic too I think. No question, it needs the yeast to produce the higher alcohols for other than ethyl esters. And this needs yeast stress probably. But there is no yeast producing acetic acid or butyric acid in high amounts.


Birrofilo wrote:Yes, but - just to understand - if in a high-ester rum esters total something like 1500 parts per 100.000 of alcohol in the final product, that would mean - if I get it right, which is not sure at all - that a minuscule percentage quantity of acids in the dunder, even without detectable smell, could be sufficient to produce the minuscule quantity of esters in the final product, which is in absolute very small, even if it is comparatively high in high-ester rum.

good argument. To points against:
1. 600g/hlaa Rum contains 100 / 0.6 = 166 times more alcohol than esters. So a wash with 8% alcohol would need less than 0.05% acids, if all acids are esterified and all esters and alcohols are carried over into the distillate. 0.05% acetic acid and 8% alcohol would mean 1ml salad vinegar (5% acid) and 8ml alcohol into 91ml water. Would the vinegar be smellable? I think it would. But not extreme.
2. I have often fermented pure uninfected backset with added sugar. I never got high glue smell (ethyl acetate) distillates. The opposite was true always. Such a wash produces a very clean and fine easy spirit. So I don't think there is acetic acid in it.
Birrofilo wrote:As a side note, the text says: "If an organic acid such as acetic acid is allowed to remain in contact with alcohol, a certain amount of the alcohol and acid will combine and form acetic ether".
If esters are formed by merely chemical reactions - without the need of a microbial entity - then wouldn't it be theoretically possible to create the esters aside - just combining acetic acid and alcohol in the case of acetic ester - and then putting it in the final product? Wouldn't a high-ester rum be made by assembling the esters with the rum? What am I missing?

Yes, it's a simple chemical reaction. It needs microbial activity to produce the acids and alcohols. But the combining of them to an ester is a chemical reaction. Search for the thread "Pure acids and esters production"


distiller_dresden,
There are many studies about infected dunder. Mostly they focus on a specific detail. But all agree it's an of bacteria densely populated habitat. And all write about its acids and esters.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:16 am

Hey der wo, I wonder if anyone has ever got a full picture of all the bacteria in there though? It does seem like exactly what could help all this
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:16 am

There is much written about Clostridia bacteria, which produces butyric acid, which is responsible for the pineapple ester. Rum is the only spirit with so much butyric esters. Clostridia are in earth. And in fruits, which grow in earth, like potatoes. All over the world, not only in the tropics. The dunder pits have contact to earth.
But the most esters are acetic esters. So the most important bacterias are acetic ones. But this is not a Rum speciality, there are also high levels in some fruit brandies and especially grappa. But their fermentation seems not to produce much isoamyl alcohol, probably because most fruit brandies are not fermented at tropical temps, I think.
Last edited by der wo on Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:23 am

https://books.google.de/books?id=allg4X ... pm&f=false
Ethyl acetate levels:
Bourbon 380 - 460 mg/l = 95 - 115 g/hlaa. Low compared to the other datas I have.
Scotch 90 - 145 mg/l = 23-36 g/hlaa. Also low. But yes, Scotch normally hasn't a glue smell.
Brandy 6 - 321 mg/100mlaa = 6 - 321 g/laa. 321 must have a very strong grappa glue note.
Fruit brandy from almost nothing up to 1135g/laa!!! 1135 is undrinkable.
There are also other numbers in the link. And numbers for beer and wine.
All in all, all those numbers I have collected so far don't sum up to something useful for me. I think I'll stop here speculating about how many esters which spirit has or should have or whatever. Needless to say, that I am not able to measure the levels of my own Rum. In general it seems simple: If it smells like glue, it has much ethyl acetate. If it smells sharp fruity, pineapple, fruit gum like, it's a butyric ester, probably ethyl butyrate. And banana probably isoamyl acetate. Acetates and butyrates need the right acids, this needs the right bacterias, it's easy to get them, to control them perhaps is not so easy. And Isoamylalcohol I hope is possible to get with a hot ferment.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby butterpants » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:06 am

Brettanomyces produces a significant amount of acetic acid in aerobic conditions, can eat long chain dextrins sacc could never, produces phenols, makes ethyl buyterate and works at low pH. It's a yeast and imagine in there somewhere.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:33 am

"The Yeast Bay" is a small (what's the word used these days...?) yeast and bacteria production place that sells to the public that has a bunch of different strains including brett and brett blended strains with tropical and tropical/funk ester production for anyone interested. They have a lot of interesting strains, just not a lot that appear to survive around 90F. Maybe you could run a double fermentation and when one is done drop more molasses in and a higher temp more basic yeast, or vice versa, I don't know how that works at all.

Maybe rack the first off of a half-batch, then other half batch at high temp, and then cook both halves off together in the still.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:46 am

butterpants wrote:Brettanomyces produces a significant amount of acetic acid in aerobic conditions, can eat long chain dextrins sacc could never, produces phenols, makes ethyl buyterate and works at low pH. It's a yeast and imagine in there somewhere.

But I don't find information online about Brettanomyces AND Rum. It can ferment long chain dextrins? This is the reason that you find it in beer and other grain mashes but not in a molasses wash. Same with lactic acid bacterias. They are able to eat starch, so you find it mainly in starch rich environments.

distiller_dresden wrote:"The Yeast Bay" is a small (what's the word used these days...?) yeast and bacteria production place that sells to the public that has a bunch of different strains including brett and brett blended strains with tropical and tropical/funk ester production for anyone interested. They have a lot of interesting strains, just not a lot that appear to survive around 90F. Maybe you could run a double fermentation and when one is done drop more molasses in and a higher temp more basic yeast, or vice versa, I don't know how that works at all.

Maybe rack the first off of a half-batch, then other half batch at high temp, and then cook both halves off together in the still.

Yes, you can make many strange things. But I think such a method has nothing to do with original methods. If a yeast strain is not able to ferment over 90F, perhaps it is not the right one for Rum?

Why it is not acceptable that acetic acid comes simply from acetic bacteria and butyric acid from butyric bacteria?
Sorry for my bad English!
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby butterpants » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:31 pm

der wo wrote:
butterpants wrote:Brettanomyces produces a significant amount of acetic acid in aerobic conditions, can eat long chain dextrins sacc could never, produces phenols, makes ethyl buyterate and works at low pH. It's a yeast and imagine in there somewhere.

But I don't find information online about Brettanomyces AND Rum. It can ferment long chain dextrins? This is the reason that you find it in beer and other grain mashes but not in a molasses wash. Same with lactic acid bacterias. They are able to eat starch, so you find it mainly in starch rich environments.

distiller_dresden wrote:"The Yeast Bay" is a small (what's the word used these days...?) yeast and bacteria production place that sells to the public that has a bunch of different strains including brett and brett blended strains with tropical and tropical/funk ester production for anyone interested. They have a lot of interesting strains, just not a lot that appear to survive around 90F. Maybe you could run a double fermentation and when one is done drop more molasses in and a higher temp more basic yeast, or vice versa, I don't know how that works at all.

Maybe rack the first off of a half-batch, then other half batch at high temp, and then cook both halves off together in the still.

Yes, you can make many strange things. But I think such a method has nothing to do with original methods. If a yeast strain is not able to ferment over 90F, perhaps it is not the right one for Rum?

Why it is not acceptable that acetic acid comes simply from acetic bacteria and butyric acid from butyric bacteria?
Yea Der Wo, I've done very minimal Rum research so can't correlate the 2...but Brett eats everything (simple sugar included), makes vinegar and makes pineapple. Just adding to the knowledge base.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:57 pm

butterpants wrote:Yea Der Wo, I've done very minimal Rum research so can't correlate the 2...but Brett eats everything (simple sugar included), makes vinegar and makes pineapple. Just adding to the knowledge base.

Most organisms can eat simple sugars. To survive either they can eat them faster than the other organisms or they can eat also more difficult things. Normal yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) ferments fast, brettanomyces and lactic bacteria ferment also difficult things. If you don't have much starch/dextrins in your mash, it's very unlikely that a brett or lacto will keep down the saccharomyces.

But I agree, that fermenting with brett will give a more special result than fermenting with special types of sacc. cer. Interesting perhaps not only for someone who has done everything else and wants to experiment. But this would be off topic here.
Sorry for my bad English!
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby thecroweater » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:03 am

Umm you can get a lactic infection in a molasses wash and I have personally seen it. Most molasses has a minimum of 5% starch.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:29 am

thecroweater wrote:Umm you can get a lactic infection in a molasses wash and I have personally seen it. Most molasses has a minimum of 5% starch.

Where do you know, it was a lactic infection?

I wasn't successful to find out, if there is starch or dextrins in molasses. There are unfermentable carbon hydrates, but no starch. Yes, perhaps there is something in there, what lactic bacterias can chew on better than yeast. I don't say it's impossible, I say it's unlikely to have a mainly lactic infection. Because the main speciality of lactic bacterias to be able to ferment starch and lactose plays not a role in fermenting molasses. IMO. If you find nutrition datas like "starch = 5%", I will have to think about again.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby distiller_dresden » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:51 am

Ingredients from HQ molasses I just bought, of the 75.80 carbs .2 are fiber, 63 sugar, what are the extra 12.6g per 100g? I'd think it's gotta be a kind of cane starch making it a thick syrup, like corn starch or flour is a thickener, right?

Also, I wish the BS molasses I got had such a detailed label.



Supreme Baking Molasses

Nutrients per 100g as is (Wet Basis)

Calories …………………………….. 307 Kcal
Fat…………………………………….0 g
Saturated Fat……………………….. 0 g
Trans Fat…………………………….0 g
Cholesterol………………………….. 0 mg
Protein………………………………..0.90 g
Carbohydrate………………………...75.80 g
Fiber…………………………………. 0.20 g
Sugars………………………………..63.00 g

Minerals:
Calcium……………………215.60 mg
Iron………………………… 4.38 mg
Sodium……………………. 92.33 mg
Potassium………………….923.90 mg

Vitamins:
Vitamin A……………….….0 IU
Vitamin C…………………. 0 mg
Niacin………………………0 mg
Thiamine………………….. 0 mg
Riboflavin………………… 0 mg

found this paper, 'constituents of cane molasses' but I don't know what a scientific term for 'starch' would be...help?
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 6.10858603
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby der wo » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:02 am

I think it's not starch, because starch would be a very important nutrient (when you use the molasses for bakery or animal food for example). So why all those nutrient charts don't mention it?
There are a few foods which contain sugar AND starch. Apples for example. Look at apple nutrition charts and you will find their starch amount (0.6%). Why not in molasses charts?
Carbs but not sugar doesn't mean automatically starch. For example cellulose or chitin are carbs.
Perhaps there is a minimal amount of starch or dextrins in molasses. But seems noone is interested in.
The term starch is normally scientific enough. Dextrines, oligosaccharides, polysaccharides would be other terms. Perhaps you find something. If yes, post it.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5573/2
Here they say zero starch. But they don't mention dextrins...

Generally I think, you can produce lactic acid with a dunder pit. But you have to add the lactic bacterias. Give them a headstart.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Postby thecroweater » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:58 pm

C'mon guys we are talking about blackstrap or feed molasses, maybe you can get gluten free stuff I wouldn't know. You can kinda tell lactic as it smells like cottage cheese or whey, Anyways I just googled it and there are thousands of results, this being the first one
http://www.sugar-and-sweetener-guide.co ... asses.html
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