Sweet Corn shine!

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Sweet Corn shine!

Postby distiller_dresden » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:14 pm

So after beginning with grain and making multi-generation bourbon, then the last 8 months in rum (mostly), I'm making a Sweet Corn shine.

Recipe:
8lbs flaked maize
3lbs malted corn
1lbs malted oats
Enzymes (hi and low temp and powder glucoamylase)
Calcium chloride (for mashing)
I can ferment anywhere from 64-95F
4 gal water
1.5 gal 'corn' water (from canned corn - for that sweet corn flavor)

I have on hand the following yeasts:
Fermentis M1, Safale US05, Red Star DADY, K1B-1122, Abbaye Belgian Ale, D47, bakers, K1V-1116, 493 EDV

I am discounting bakers (boring), 493 EDV (rum yeast, does best in sugars), Abbaye (can result in spicy flavors), DADY (is a maybe, but may finish to clean/unremarkable), M1 (makes huge congeners and designed for long barrel/wood aging)

I want to finish with a white (possibly aging on yellow birch for butteryness, but no oak) that has a great sweet corn flavor and good mouthfeel. I want to preserve that sweet corn flavor, and have a good, strong shine that is refreshing like late summer, eating raw sweet corn. Likely I'm going to include 12oz fresh wash and 12 oz corn water in thump charge, along with some long held back 10oz of gen 3 corn bourbon (70% weight corn batch mash-in) feints, as well as a half cup of Carnation 'malted milk' malt powder. All in seeking that sweet corn/nearly corn flakes super corn flavor.


So I'm looking for suggestions on yeast - anybody have experience making a really good Sweet Corn Moonshine, what yeast is going to make or preserve that awesome corn flavor as much as possible?

I'm giving a little thought to 1122, because it's made great fruit esters in my brandy mashes, and when I used it at low temp in a maple syrup wash it made the best rum among 1122, 1116, bakers, and 493 EDV. 1122 seems to preserve and create flavors of what it's fermenting very, VERY well-- however, I think it is a primarily 'sugar' performer and I don't think it will react the same way in a malt/converted starch from grain mash.

Also, besides recommendations on yeast, gimme temp recommendations. I'm working from the assumption that for preserving the true original flavor of your mash/subject that you keep temps low to cool, and the warmer you get the more likely, regardless of yeast, that you'll get 'bonus' or unwanted esters.
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby Samyguy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:40 pm

Interesting
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby fizzix » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:54 am

I'm with you on the DADY --unremarkable.
(Will have to expand my yeast horizons to include those on your list.)
Best of luck to you.

I've had 10-liters Booner's with oats in a charred barrel since April.
It was either US-05 or Nottingham. Just had a first taste and it's swe-e-e-et.
Hope you enjoy your corn/oats too, Dresden!
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:53 am

fizzix wrote:I'm with you on the DADY --unremarkable.
(Will have to expand my yeast horizons to include those on your list.)
Best of luck to you.

I've had 10-liters Booner's with oats in a charred barrel since April.
It was either US-05 or Nottingham. Just had a first taste and it's swe-e-e-et.
Hope you enjoy your corn/oats too, Dresden!


Maybe I'll try US 05... On my others - Fermentis M1, Safale US05, Red Star DADY, K1B-1122, Abbaye Belgian Ale, D47, bakers, K1V-1116, 493 EDV

The 47 and 1122 were both acquired for fruits looking to preserve the most flavor, I much prefer 1122, anything that is sugar-based (as fruits are) or something like a rum that is lighter (like my maple 'pancake' rum) 1122 is absolutely wonderful for and ferment at low temps - 65ish. 1116 is a good wine yeast and a great rum yeast if you don't have/can't get 493 EDV, it makes good esters and when stressed makes more, that you wouldn't want in a fruit, but are awesome for rum. I'm gonna make a golden promise scotch with the abbaye because at low temps it can make plummy/date esters in grain washes (it's a grain yeast and will perform wonky in sugar washes, and not the same) -- then age said scotch in port soaked badmo. I'm making another golden promise with M1, it makes congeners and is best for aging something longer in wood, and I'll blend those two batches -- abbaye and M1 -- for the port barrel. I have very, very high hopes for that scotch!

But yeah, DADY and bakers, I just wouldn't recommend those for anything unless you have no choice (cost or unavailability [which is silly these days]).
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby Single Malt Yinzer » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:31 am

If you're trying to preserve at least some of the sweet corn flavor would you not want something that would bring that flavor out vs change it? Something much more neutral like you would with fruit? If you use something that is a heavy ester producer will it not be covering up the corn flavor?
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:38 am

Well my experience in fruit, the 'cleaner' or neutral finishers vs 1122, at low temps the 1122 creates esters, but they are esters of what it's in - that's been my experience over and over with many fruit washes and a maple syrup wash. So I'm looking for something like that which will work the same in a grain.
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby bilgriss » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:29 am

US-05 is generally a good choice when you want a yeast that will 'stay out of the way' of the ingredient flavors, if you keep the temperature between 60-75 degrees F. Doesn't really add anything, improve "maltiness" or any of that. Homebrewers like it often for hoppy beers because it won't diminish hop aroma, as some yeasts do. It doesn't really accent anything though. At high temperatures it starts to throw some off flavor, and below 60F people report a "peachy" flavor that I have no idea if it would carry over. But I expect it would let your corn shine through in a healthy ferment.
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby distiller_dresden » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:19 pm

Update! I spoke with the yeast and fermentation specialist at Lallemand in MI, he also suggested US05. So I'm using US05 - here's what I did:
8lbs flaked maize
3lbs malted corn
1lbs malted oats
5 gallons water
8 cans sweet corn, no salt or sugar added; 6 went into the mash pot with 2 gal water while I cooked/mashed everything (after grinding it all but flaked in my coffee grinder). I used Sebstar enzymes as well.
1 packet Safale US-05, bloomed in water, 20 min later I added 2c of wash water and let rest to double repeatedly for 6 hours
Fermenting at 64F, on grain
6g Fermaid K
Check PH and get it to 5.6

So in the pot, big 5gal stock pot, I had 2 gal water, which I added 5ml sebstar hi temp enzyme (per directions) then stirred in my 12lbs of grains, then added water from 2 cans of corn, and the full can, water and corn, from 6 cans of sweet corn (this was to get sweet corn flavor, as well as warming the actual unground/uncrushed 'fresh' sweet corn to get all it's flavor -- it shouldn't convert in the mash due to it remaining whole). Then I set stovetop to 4 (out of 9, just under 5/med) and I stirred every 10 mins to prevent scorching. Taking it to 190F per sebstar directions. it took about 3 hours. Then I turned off heat and let it cool while covered for 90 mins, it landed right at 150 which is when I added 5ml of the Sebstar low temp enzyme (GL) and a teaspoon of cheap powdered amylase enzyme for kicks. This was supposed to sit 75 min before mashing in, however I let it sit overnight.

In the morning I checked it, it was quite well mashed, sweet. I turned stove on and reheated it from where it had settled to 120F, taking it back to 150F, turning it off (still stirring every 10 min). At this point I added another teaspoon of the amylase and 2.5ml each of the high and low temp sebstar enzymes. Left it covered and turned heat to 3 (med-low) to just maintain the warm 140-150 temps. This sat another 5 hours. At which point I took a reading of the liquid after filtering it twice, and I came up with 1.1, it was also so sweet that it was cloying and kind of sweet level that makes my teeth hurt. Ready! I dumped the pot into my fermenter and covered, then added another 2.5 gals water and 2 more cans corn to the pot, heating it to 190F before I added it to the fermenter. I'll then leave this to cool on it's own, slowly, converting converting -- getting every single last bit of my 12 lbs grain starches I can -- until it reached 75F, when I added my bloomed colony of US05.

Away we'll go!
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby distiller_dresden » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:39 pm

SO I cooked off the sweet corn shine this past weekend, and I couldn't be any happier, I'm ecstatic! In the thump was 12oz of 60% corn gen 3 feints (heads and tails) from my grain cooks back in Feb/March that had been sitting in a quart jar for the last 8 months, 20oz of canned sweet corn water, and 1c of Carnation malted milk mix. I heated up low and slow, 4.25 gallons of wash, the rest was a 'wash' due to mush, and I added the other 20oz of gen 3 feints to the pot, along with 1 can of sweet corn and water. After 1.25 hours I began to get foreshots, I cut back heat until I was getting 8oz in a pint jar every 15-18 minutes. Tossed the fores and the first 8oz of heads. Shut her down after getting 12 jars 8-12oz (missed changing a few in time), and by the end my tails were coming at 35% and very tasty, I never got a bad taste/flavor/smell in the entire run, and off the worm it was tasting like about 60% raw sweet corn, 40% the taste of the smell of freshly popped PLAIN popcorn, and malty/vanilla flavors.

I aired a day, and made cuts, getting 82oz of 60% sweet corn shine, 'cutting' with the feints and using no water at all. I've got it aging in a gallon barrel jug with 3" of Black Swan Cooperage medium toast yellow birch (butter/butter brickle flavors) and may add some Japanese maple in time. It is smooth as is, at 60%, drinks like 45%, and tastes absolutely wonderful -- like raw sweet corn single malt moonshine with that sweet malty flavor good malt scotch has. I am so freaking excited for how this will turn out after aging and some ultrasonic treatments!

82oz without adding any water from cuts at 60% is also the absolute best I have ever pulled from one run, and then that was from 4.25 gal, not even the full 5 gal my pot holds. It was a real pain in the ass, but this run is the best, most efficient, exactly what I wanted and envisioned that I have ever run.

May be samples to go out in time, next year...

I'm going to name this, "Buttered Popcorn Shine," and already have another batch just to duplicate with consistency.

I would love if others started, I think this is my first recipe that truly deserves and belongs under Tried and True. My Blueberry brandy may be right beside it, I've gotten feedback from vet shiners who say that is better than their NC great granddaddy's brandies, and their granddaddy's brandies. The only obstacle with my blueberry is cost, I spent $156 on a 5.5 gal wash -- Country Spoon blueberry concentrate, 15lbs frozen blueberries, R.W. Knudsen blueberry and blueberry pomegranate juices, and several cans of frozen grape juice concentrate -- an absolutely NO water.
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby Changnoi » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:54 pm

I really enjoyed this thread. Thank you distiller_dresden!

I was putting together a grain bill for a sort of whatchagot brew, about 80% corn meal and 20% 2-row base malt (just a bunch of spare stuff I got on hand, thought I'd make a "bourbon" out of it.) I also have a ton of canned corn that I'll never eat. Some with salt, some without. I was thinking to add some of it to the ferment as fermentable, and some to the wash for the stripping run. Question is, what would be best to add where? And why? And why not? Or just play it safe and not do it at all?

Does sweet corn have any fermentability? Would it need to go in with the cornmeal to gelatinize, or right after but before adding the malt so it could be converted? Could I do any of those things with salted sweet corn that's been rinsed?

What about adding the salty sweet corn water to the boiler for the stripping run?

The size batch I have ingredients for is too big for one fermenter, and I could just split it into two similar batches and run them separately... or do as I planned, play it safe, stick to 2 ingredients, run the result in one stripping run and experiment some other time.

I know fizzix has chimed in with great advice on this subject when I asked a similar question on another thread. I guess I'm just looking for a reason to use the damn stuff rather than throw it out. Convince me! hehehehehehehe

Thanks in advance if anyone has advice along those lines!
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:25 pm

I'd say you can use it all, but use the salted sweet corn for flavor in your cook; salt can have negative effects and stall out ferments. Use the unsalted or low (just natural whatever is in it) salt stuff in the ferment; I didn't actually use any canned corn to 'ferment' I used it just for it's flavor, the starch was still there. However, I am fairly certain that canned sweet corn is already 'starched' or 'gelled' and you don't need to do that boil that dried or cracked corn requires - I think then you could just use a food processor or blender to bust open that canned corn without salt and add it to you mash before you add the enzyme or the malted grain to do the converting and it would be very readily available.

My canned sweet corn was all for flavor. Interestingly as this sweet corn shine has sat just aging in glass it has started to age and take on partly a corn whisky/bourbon flavor, but a lot of the raw sweet corn flavor remains.

As for the corn meal, I haven't used that but I think people use it with the enzyme or malt, I don't know much about corn meal or starch though, I'm sorry - I hope someone chimes in here about that for you. If you want to mash the canned corn, just break it up and get it in there for your mashing/malting, if you just want the flavor, still get it in there for that application of heat, but don't break it up, use it 'whole' kernel. That's what I did and the shine that came out was like eating a raw ear and sipping canned corn water. If you like sweet corn, DELICIOUS! I don't know how I would/you would 'stop' the change that's happened with no wood in the glass though, it's just at 60% to smooth and breath some, and it's aged itself, so that may be a component reaction of acids and ester formations like in rums.

But here's two ways you can use all that corn, for sure!
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby The Baker » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:32 am

I admit I haven't studied in detail the previous messages; a couple of thoughts, partly from my experience as a commercial baker...

Suppose you are making bread. It is fermented with yeast, but it is not salt free.
It is possible to ferment with salt in the material to be fermented.
It has been that long since I baked that I have forgotten the percentage of water in a dough (bakers usually calculate it as a percentage of the flour weight anyway, not a percentage of the total).
But suppose you added salty water (instead of separate additions of water and of salt) then I believe it is possible to use straight sea water as the liquid in a bread dough.
So you should be able to use a fair bit of salt in a successful ferment. I think...

Maybe you could strain the liquid off the salty corn and include that corn in a ferment with the unsalted corn-and-its-liquid. See how it goes. There would not be nearly as much salt in just the kernels as in the total in the cans.
If it works fine try adding back some of the salty liquid too, next time....
And anyway if you added salty liquid to the boiler the salt would remain in the boiler but you may be happy with the added flavour.

And if you are making a (different) grain-based ferment you should be able to add some salty liquid-from-the-salted-corn to it and it should still ferment fine.

Just kicking it around but I hate to throw stuff out!

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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby Changnoi » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:56 pm

distiller_dresden thank you for the info! I will take your advice to heart and have decided to put some of the salty sweet corn that I need rid of in the stripping boil. I just added the malt to the cooled gelatinized corn (I used meal) and it was like stirring polenta. Hoping in the next half hour it will get thinner and I plan to keep stirring it for as long as I can then just let it rest overnight. Currently it's in a cooler wrapped in blankets which seems to be working well (I use the same cooler as a mash/lauter tun to brew all-grain beers). I'm really excited for the sweet corn flavor in the finished spirit. I hope to do experiments with some local wood that I've been using so far on brandy. For most of the wood I use I felled the trees, but I just came across some perfectly aged oregon white oak that all I had to do was show up and swing a maul for a few hours.

I've got a thread that I've been using to talk about this project, https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=73335 and I'll update it with pics from today... soon, maybe tomorrow.

Geoff The Baker: lots of great info! thank you! I've done sourdough a few times and I still can't wrap my head around the whole % hydration thing. Not sure about seawater for bread, but for lactoferments and simple meat smoking brines it works well!

It's gonna take me a while to try all the rest of the suggestions but I decided to keep it simple with just cornmeal and malted barley. Got my fingers crossed that it works! Gonna go try to stir it now.
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby The Baker » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:44 am

I used to work with a navy baker (Korean war; this was over fifty years ago) and I THINK he said they could make the dough with sea water. Then they did not have to;
carry a lot of salt, and
condense a lot of sea water into fresh for doughmaking.

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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby Changnoi » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:49 am

Just for giggles I looked into it, Geoff. Turns out, 100% fact! Tons of recipes out there, especially wild fermented no-knead varieties. Flour, seawater, wild yeast. What a crazy world we live in!
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby distiller_dresden » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:13 pm

So update on this one...
When it was fresh and for about 2 weeks after I did cuts to 60% and had it in glass loose top to age some, smooth out, it tasted like buttered popcorn jelly bellys with no sugar, but a sweet 'ester', and more malty sweet corn flavor. Sweet corn flavor through the roof. I put only 1/2 stick of toasted birch to add more butter flavor for 3 weeks, keep track this is 5 now, and it was still buttery raw sweet corn. So I pulled the birch just to let it smooth in glass. Then I haven't tasted it for a month or so, maybe 5 weeks? Not sure, but I stuck a finger in the other night and it has changed. The sweetness went away, the butter got stronger, and it's taken on an earthy popped corn flavor, probably the corn malt I imagine.

Friend of mine says to leave it alone and it'll get sweet and corny again, not as earthy and losing that sweet ester (it's the flavor of sweet, not that it's sugar sweet). So that's what I'm doing. I don't have near enough knowledge or experience with corn because I just learned to mash grains when I started, and all my research has been toward rum. Then for 9 months I've basically made nothing but rum. So I'm taking him at his word.

But if you want to reproduce or attempt your attempt at what I did, I'd say proof it down right away after cuts and enjoy it in the first month/month and a half. I don't know if proofing will stop the changes it clearly went through/is going through, but I know at the start it was what I wanted exactly, and now I don't know exactly what it's doing...
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby still_stirrin » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:55 am

distiller_dresden wrote:So... I don't know if proofing will stop the changes it clearly went through/is going through, but I know at the start it was what I wanted exactly, and now I don't know exactly what it's doing...

You oughta’ stick a toasted and lightly charred oak domino in there. It’ll pick up some the oaky goodness and vanilla and caramel notes. If you like popped corn, why not make it Karmel Korn?

And since you’ve made this an experiment, the learning continues...
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby Durhommer » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:40 am

Was wondering I'm experimenting with sugar washes I want to do a 4 gallon run so what I want to do is use 5 lb cornmeal 5 lb sugar 14g yeast(bakers) 5 gal water wondering if I could add maybe a pound and a half of malted barley(ground) to the ferment for flavor I know I'm being cheap I am using sugar wash to get myself ready for what I really want to do which is all grain so I figure cheaper to learn on sugar then gradually move up when I'm comfortable. A little guidance here would be greatly appreciated
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby bilgriss » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:48 am

There are several sugar washes that produce consistent, good results in the tried and true recipes section. I'd suggest you start there, and if you want to vary the grains somewhat for flavor profile, you do a 1 to 1 replacement using one of those. Better yet, just make them as recommended until you feel you've hit a point that it's more intuitive what your suggested changes might do to the final product.

Start by asking, 'am I using the right amount of sugar' for fermentables'. and then question the process used for producing a wash. Sometimes the process is more important than the list of ingredients.

Best of luck!
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Re: Sweet Corn shine!

Postby Fruit Squeezer » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:20 pm

Durhommer wrote:Was wondering I'm experimenting with sugar washes I want to do a 4 gallon run so what I want to do is use 5 lb cornmeal 5 lb sugar 14g yeast(bakers) 5 gal water


Add 2 gal COLD water to cornmeal and stir... It prevents clumps! Then stir in 3 gal boiling water.
Saves TONS of stirring and time!
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