Single malt whiskey using LME
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- shadylane
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
There's several tricks of the trade to deal with foaming up and puking.
Turn down the heat, stir, add a little oil, etc.
When I do the first stripping run, We'll see what or if anything is needed.
Since I only have a single fermenter.
I'll let it keep clearing until some more LME arrives.
Turn down the heat, stir, add a little oil, etc.
When I do the first stripping run, We'll see what or if anything is needed.
Since I only have a single fermenter.
I'll let it keep clearing until some more LME arrives.
- shadylane
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
Bubba also uses LME in a bastardized version of UJSSMTwisted Brick wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 7:02 pmThat's brilliant. Never thought of doing that!Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 5:09 pm Nothing other than Ive used it as an additive in a bastardized version of UJSSM .......one tin went a long way as far as flavour goes.
What he makes is good enough to brag about.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
I would not doubt that one iota. i think all possibilities are positively obtainable.
I am still curious about the extent of the 'foaming coefficient' given your gluco treatment of the LME and the most exemplary FG of .999.
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- shadylane
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
If everything goes according to plan. Tomorrow we will find out.Twisted Brick wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:04 pm
I am still curious about the extent of the 'foaming coefficient' given your gluco treatment of the LME and the most exemplary FG of .999.
UPS just delivered another 32 pounds of LME.
Time to empty the fermenter into the boiler and strip it, to make room for the next mash.
I'm too drunk to do it safely tonight, so we will have to wait till morning.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
Hahaha. Been there!shadylane wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:31 pmIf everything goes according to plan. Tomorrow we will find out.Twisted Brick wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:04 pm
I am still curious about the extent of the 'foaming coefficient' given your gluco treatment of the LME and the most exemplary FG of .999.
UPS just delivered another 32 pounds of LME.
Time to empty the fermenter into the boiler and strip it, to make room for the next mash.
I'm too drunk to do it safely tonight, so we will have to wait till morning.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
With age comes wisdom, at least that's what we're shootin' for!shadylane wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:31 pmIf everything goes according to plan. Tomorrow we will find out.Twisted Brick wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:04 pm
I am still curious about the extent of the 'foaming coefficient' given your gluco treatment of the LME and the most exemplary FG of .999.
UPS just delivered another 32 pounds of LME.
Time to empty the fermenter into the boiler and strip it, to make room for the next mash.
I'm too drunk to do it safely tonight, so we will have to wait till morning.
Cranky's spoonfeeding:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52975
Time and Oak will sort it out.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52975
Time and Oak will sort it out.
- shadylane
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
I can say for a fact. A LME wash wants to puke.
It's got the biggest head of foam, I've ever seem on a beer.
I discovered that when degassing the wash.
The first puke happened even before the boiler was fully up to temp.
It's got the biggest head of foam, I've ever seem on a beer.
I discovered that when degassing the wash.
The first puke happened even before the boiler was fully up to temp.
- Trapped-in-Oz
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
Other than suggestions to try a different LME, yeast and include some wheat germ……………… I going to ask… what is your head-space to wash ratio ?
- shadylane
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
The boiler was around 70% full.
If it hadn't been for a small accident, it would have been 75% full.
After the initial drama, everything settled down and I was able to turn the power up.
If it hadn't been for a small accident, it would have been 75% full.
After the initial drama, everything settled down and I was able to turn the power up.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
Learning to tame a puke is part of the learnin.
Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
LOL. i hate to laugh at others misfortune...but did you think i was pushin' your leg?
That foam would make a nice meringue if you kept the egg beater on it long enough!
it does finally settle, but it's a handful. try a bunch of butter on the next one. it helps.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
Glad to see you recovered Shady. A great heads up for those who follow in your footsteps.
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- shadylane
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
Here's the rest of the story.Trapped-in-Oz wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:03 pm
That’s a huge space for foaming….. are you saying the entire 30% of the boiler did fill with foam ?
My keg sized boiler has two 4500w electric elements.
One was running 25% power. And the other was around 65%
The game plan was to get the boiler to temp then turn down the power.
I was fiddling around putting a sight glass together.
Figured to install it on top the boiler to watch for foaming.
The boiler wasn't near being up to temp, but localized boiling around the heaters was enough to cause a massive foam up.
There was a rumbling/gushing sound
I looked up and hot, foamy, amber wash was shooting out the condenser. OOHH shit. I turned off the power!
Luckily I had the jug sitting in a big enough, high sided SS container to hold the mess.
I let the pot cool down for a moment and poured the mess back into the pot.
Installed the sight glass and fired the pot-still back up.
As the run progressed, I was able to slowly turn the power up.
Around 2500W divided between the two heaters was the most possible at the beginning.
- shadylane
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
After stripping there was 2.4 gallons @ 38%
Looks like I ended the run too early.
When I was sampling the jars this morning, the last one tasted like watered down whiskey.
There was around 5% alcohol and a thin film of oil floating on top.
For the second batch of wash, I poured half the available LME in the fermenter.
Filled it with water to the 15gallon mark and mixed in some Gluco.
The SG was around 1.052ish It was difficult to get an accurate measurement due to all the foam.
Looks like I ended the run too early.
When I was sampling the jars this morning, the last one tasted like watered down whiskey.
There was around 5% alcohol and a thin film of oil floating on top.
For the second batch of wash, I poured half the available LME in the fermenter.
Filled it with water to the 15gallon mark and mixed in some Gluco.
The SG was around 1.052ish It was difficult to get an accurate measurement due to all the foam.
- shadylane
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
I kinda figured it would like to foam up. But I had to see it for myself.
If I was smart, I'd dig around in the junk boxes and find a boiler agitator I built awhile back.
That, and pay better attention next time.
- Trapped-in-Oz
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
Question about LME and enzymes ?
Coppers are an Australian brewery that also produces LME……… and claims to have….. “ unique low temperature evaporation method “... for their LME.
I have read that excessive temperature will destroy enzymes.
Is it possible that some LME retain active enzymes ?
Coppers are an Australian brewery that also produces LME……… and claims to have….. “ unique low temperature evaporation method “... for their LME.
I have read that excessive temperature will destroy enzymes.
Is it possible that some LME retain active enzymes ?
- jonnys_spirit
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
Low temp evap = under vacuum. That how most concentrates are made.
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
Freeze dried…partially?jonnys_spirit wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:40 pm Low temp evap = under vacuum. That how most concentrates are made.
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Experience is usually the result of bad judgement..
Experience is usually the result of bad judgement..
- shadylane
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
I'm sure it's possible.
The LME used for these ferments is devoid of enzymes.
Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
even with agitation mine was mt. Vesuvius....even with butter, agitation and careful heat it still took forever (like 6 hours) for it to get past wanting to spill her guts.
I tried 5 different strips to success and it eluded me at every turn.
the resulting whiskey was/is fine as frogs fur though...
i never tried that beer anit foam stuff tho...wassit called? fermcap? Jimbo talked about it a long time ago.
I tried 5 different strips to success and it eluded me at every turn.
the resulting whiskey was/is fine as frogs fur though...
i never tried that beer anit foam stuff tho...wassit called? fermcap? Jimbo talked about it a long time ago.
I finally quit drinking for good.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
I’ve never had this unavoidable puking (though I’m sure that I’m not immune). But I put my defoamer in at mash in, not at distillation. Maybe it makes a difference?
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
In this case.
I'm thinking the co2 left over from fermentation was a big contributor to foaming up.
When I slowly drained the fermenter into a 5 gallon bucket, so I could transfer to the boiler.
Looked like 2 gallons was foam. It would have made a damn good beer.
I'm guessing fermenting at a lower temp or properly degassing would help.
The batch I'm doing now will be done a little different.
Starting with a lower ferment temp.
I'm thinking the co2 left over from fermentation was a big contributor to foaming up.
When I slowly drained the fermenter into a 5 gallon bucket, so I could transfer to the boiler.
Looked like 2 gallons was foam. It would have made a damn good beer.
I'm guessing fermenting at a lower temp or properly degassing would help.
The batch I'm doing now will be done a little different.
Starting with a lower ferment temp.
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
No it isn't, because those products are sold to the homebrewing (or the brewing) community, and having active enzymes in the product would be a non-desirable quality, actually it would be quite a serious fault.
What they do is they denaturate completely the enzymes (by bringing the wort up to 80°C more or less) and then dry the wort in the most gentle way possible in order not to damage the aroma and not to "cook" it too much (which would bring caramelization, Maillard reactions, loss of aromas etc.).
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
Malt extracts (either liquid/syrup or dry/powder) are produced as a basic fermentable product for making beers, and to be consumable as beers. The extracts are mashed and then the wort may, or may not be hopped in a kettle boil. If hopped, the boil most certainly will kill all active enzyme reduction. And even the unhopped extracts likely have been boiled to remove residual proteins that could cloud the finished beers.
The extracts are then reduced to a syrup by removing much of the water (which is fundamental in a wort), either by an extended kettle boil or vacuum processing at a lower temperature. An extended kettle boil would without doubt change the color of the wort and caramelize sugars too.
While some “beer kits” packaged with malt extracts are developed for a specific style of beer, often much of the malt extracts are produced now for “baseline” beer making to which additional adjuncts (specialty grains) and stylistic hops are needed to produce a specific style of beer. The science has changed/matured a lot in the last 25-30 years, especially since the development of the craft brewing industry worldwide.
As to how Coopers (not “Coppers”), produces their extracts, I believe they do use vacuum reduction of the worts. I’ve used Coopers extracts in beers before and they typically are “generic” in quality, meaning they’re a good base extract to add adjunct grains to in order to make a signature style lager. However, even with vacuum processing, there is no active enzyme content in the extracts. Again, the wort is kettle boiled during manufacturing, thereby denaturing all enzyme activity from the mash process.
Using a LME or DME in a ferment for a spirit would be a simple shortcut to the fermenter, since the fermentable sugars have already been extracted from the grain grist. However, often in production of extracts, some of the sugars in the extract are not fermentables because the extracts are made for beer, not distiller’s beers.
But that is not to say, you cannot recover the fermentable sugars from the non-fermentables…you can, if you make the conditions right (temperature and pH) and add gluco-amylase enzymes and allow them to reduce the non-fermentable sugars.
Only disadvantage to using malt extracts as a base for a spirit is the cost of the extract. Typically, malt extract is more expensive pound for pound than the cereal malt grains even considering shipping. You will always pay for the labor and equipment costs the extract producer has invested to make the extract.
So, if you’ve got it…use it!
ss
The extracts are then reduced to a syrup by removing much of the water (which is fundamental in a wort), either by an extended kettle boil or vacuum processing at a lower temperature. An extended kettle boil would without doubt change the color of the wort and caramelize sugars too.
While some “beer kits” packaged with malt extracts are developed for a specific style of beer, often much of the malt extracts are produced now for “baseline” beer making to which additional adjuncts (specialty grains) and stylistic hops are needed to produce a specific style of beer. The science has changed/matured a lot in the last 25-30 years, especially since the development of the craft brewing industry worldwide.
As to how Coopers (not “Coppers”), produces their extracts, I believe they do use vacuum reduction of the worts. I’ve used Coopers extracts in beers before and they typically are “generic” in quality, meaning they’re a good base extract to add adjunct grains to in order to make a signature style lager. However, even with vacuum processing, there is no active enzyme content in the extracts. Again, the wort is kettle boiled during manufacturing, thereby denaturing all enzyme activity from the mash process.
Using a LME or DME in a ferment for a spirit would be a simple shortcut to the fermenter, since the fermentable sugars have already been extracted from the grain grist. However, often in production of extracts, some of the sugars in the extract are not fermentables because the extracts are made for beer, not distiller’s beers.
But that is not to say, you cannot recover the fermentable sugars from the non-fermentables…you can, if you make the conditions right (temperature and pH) and add gluco-amylase enzymes and allow them to reduce the non-fermentable sugars.
Only disadvantage to using malt extracts as a base for a spirit is the cost of the extract. Typically, malt extract is more expensive pound for pound than the cereal malt grains even considering shipping. You will always pay for the labor and equipment costs the extract producer has invested to make the extract.
So, if you’ve got it…use it!
ss
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- jonnys_spirit
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
I use a vacuum system for degassing in carboys and it works better when the fermented wort is slightly heated (with a heating pad) for a day or so to about 75-80*F before applying the vacuum.. It foams a lot so you need to control and remove the vacuum repeatedly as you degas. Racking between carboys under vacuum also helps release the CO2... Consider a warm and cold bottle of soda - the warm one will give up it's fizziness much easier than a cold one.. Same idea except adding vacuum to further pull CO2 out of the liquid..
This vacuum system - works great for xfers and degassing...
https://www.allinonewinepump.com/
Without some added warmth and vacuum it could take months to degass naturally. This minimizes it to a day or days...
Cheers!
-j
This vacuum system - works great for xfers and degassing...
https://www.allinonewinepump.com/
Without some added warmth and vacuum it could take months to degass naturally. This minimizes it to a day or days...
Cheers!
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
- Trapped-in-Oz
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
Thanks guys, that’s terrific information on malt extracts….. and how to release co2…….. but I am still searching to understand the reason my LME washes are flat, no gas, no mountains of foam.
With lively washes holding so much gas... why was the gas not released during fermentation ?
With lively washes holding so much gas... why was the gas not released during fermentation ?
- shadylane
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Re: Single malt whiskey using LME
What temp do you ferment at and how long do you waitTrapped-in-Oz wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:16 pm Thanks guys, that’s terrific information on malt extracts….. and how to release co2…….. but I am still searching to understand the reason my LME washes are flat, no gas, no mountains of foam.
I'm guessing you ferment the wash like it was for a lager beer.
The gas is released during fermentation. Into the liquid.Trapped-in-Oz wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:16 pm With lively washes holding so much gas... why was the gas not released during fermentation ?
Yeast dos a fine job of carbonating beer.
Last edited by shadylane on Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.