Whiskey Dunder Pit

[Odin]

Some time ago I popped the question: why we use backset and age it in a rum, but not in whiskey? I mean we use backset there as well, so why not age it too? One forum member by mistake did it and got a better result. Seems to point in the direction that a dunder pit might work for making corn or rye or whatever whiskey as well.

Reason for me to start my own "Whiskey Dunder Pit". Just took my old refrigerated UJSSM and Sweet Feed backset out of the cooling and put it into seperate fermenters at room temperature.

I plan to do the following. Use hot backset directly from the boiler to melt new sugars or heat new grains for the consecutive generations. The rest of the backset goes into the pit. Then add some aged backset (dunder) to the new gen fermentation as well.

Aiming for a 25% backset and 10% dunder to get me to a sourmash of around 35%. I also want to use the aged backset (dunder) to lower down my stripping result low wines a bit. Should enhance taste, lower abv and get me with the second distillation exactly where I want to be, without having to water it down.

Any thoughts? Experiences? Please throw them in!

Odin.

[rtalbigr]

How long do you plan on aging the backset? After 2-3 weeks mine will occasionally get that white film on top but I've never let any sit longer than that. I'm currently finishing up some bourbons, may keep 10-12 gal of backset for a few months just to see what happens. But I don't do sugar heads so the results could be different.

Big R

[jake_leg]

Dan P. was doing something like this, Odin.

[Odin]

@BigR,

I was planning on just keeping it ... and seeing where it will take me. Definately more than a few weeks.

@Jake,

Thank you, I will PM him and invite him over. I know somebody did this, but forgot the name.

Odin.

[Prairiepiss]

I plan to do the following. Use hot backset directly from the boiler to melt new sugars or heat new grains for the consecutive generations. The rest of the backset goes into the pit. Then add some aged backset (dunder) to the new gen fermentation as well.

Odin.

Odin I posed this question to the forum. Will backset have enough acid to invert sugar. Thought it mite be of help with your plans? It would be nice if we could find out. Here's a link to that thread.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 40&t=24888

[Odin]

Thanx for stepping in Mr. P!

I have been doing that: inverting sugar with backset. I should work (but how can you tell?), because it is hot and because it is accid. Well, at least it is hot enough to mélt the sugar, that's someting already. Environment, use the heat, energy ...

Here, my aim is more to explore the question if a dunder pit style backset ageing for whiskey enhances taste as it seems to do to rum.

Odin.

[The Baker]

"I plan to do the following. Use hot backset directly from the boiler to melt new sugars or heat new grains for the consecutive generations."

I did that with the 'hot slops' from apple
(with some sugar and water to make the apple easier to handle, because I distilled it on the pulp.)

Used new sugar and new grain.
It worked well.

[frozenthunderbolt]

Are you using a sealed top, a material that allows air through, or completely open?

[Odin]

Currently I have a waterlock on top, but I will open it every week to add or draw off.

Odin.

[Odin]

@RockChucker,

That is what happens in a dunderpit if my interpretation is correct: mold is formed. I expect the same to happen in a whiskey dunder pit. I have read that, while ageing, various processes take place within the dunder/backset. "Melkzuur" in Dutch, "milk sour" or "lactic accidation" in English? That is what is supposed to up taste. Now let's see if it works!

Odin.

[Odin]

Hahah Looking forward to the experiments !!!

Odin.

[Dan P.]

Sorry for the delay in replying to your PM, Odin.
Yes, I have a whiskey dunder-pit. It is much as it sounds, a big barrel of stinky dunder. I use it to acidify my mash. It is possible that it imparts some particular aromas to my product, but as a man of the world I like that, and furthermore my opinion of people who do not enjoy vigorously flavoured food and drink is quite low.
If you have any questions I am happy to answer them, but I am no expert, just the owner of about 180 litres of dunder, which is no great achievement.
-Dan

[Odin]

Congrats Dan,

& thanks for stepping in. I have one question only. Does the fact that you work with aged backset/dunder, to your opinion, give more/better taste than "just" working with fresh backset? In rum it seems to do. With whiskies nobody (well, apart from you) seems to be ageing it.

Regards, Odin.

[Dan P.]

I would say more/better taste, yes. Not much, but a little, and I cannot compare with fresh backset, because my dunder is simply backset that has gone mouldy because I never had the time to use it when it was fresh. That is to say, I have a dunder pit from wanting to use backset, not from wanting to use dunder, but a dunder pit is what I got.
I'll also add that I suspect my dunder has escaped really nasty infection because I put a little trub/active wash in there to begin with, so it has an established cervomyces/brettanomyces/pedococcus/lactobacillus culture to begin with, so maybe it's not true dunder.
-Dan

[Prairiepiss]

Ok I'm interested to. Damn you Odin. Like I didn't have enough crap around here.

[Odin]

Mr. P,

I love your new avatar! Sorta dunderpit in itsself, no?

I just moved all my "shit" to another room. And that one is starting to get too small as well!

Odin.

[rtalbigr]

I just moved all my "shit" to another room. And that one is starting to get too small as well!

Odin.

Had to rearrange a lot of stuff to accomodate my two new fermenters. Never seems to be enough room.

After I finish up my current grain bill I'll be switching gears for awhile so I'll be putting my corn backset up for awhile. Used some this weekend that had been setting for a month and it was already pretty moldy. I'll see what about six months will do. I have some new equipment I need to accumulate/make for some more corn mashing experiments some time next year.

Big R

[singlemaltluv]

Do you still have this going and if so how has the flavors developed over time.

[Odin]

No, I cleaned it up by now. All I got out of it were lacto infections into the aged backset. And since I guess some lacto infectation is going on in UJ-ferments anyhow, it didn't bring much to the tabel. I added some in distilling and it gave of some extra taste, maybe, but not sure. I am sure that the whole house started to smell bad. And it got me scared: maybe the lacto would infect my other ferments ...

Odin.

[frozenthunderbolt]

I've just started (well - going 2 weeks) 100 odd L of Sweetfeed with the grain cooked in heavily lactic infected backset/dunder from some UJSSM, i plan to add the reast to one of my 2 spirit runs and see what i get, the other spirit run i'll do a 1.5 times distillation.

Should be fun.

[Odin]

Keep us posted!!!

Odin.

[frozenthunderbolt]

Keep us posted!!!

Odin.

I pulled it from the primary into 20L buckets yesterday 1.000 SG i'll give it a few days to settle and hopefull do my first strip run this weekend - the wash smells almost floral - flowerlike as well as grainy.

I had planned to do 100L heavy rum with aged backset next, but i'm now thinking i might just tip some more sugar and water on to the grainbed and do another 100 of Sweetfeed . . .

[Rooster64]

What's the difference between backseat and dunderhead?

[frozenthunderbolt]

What's the difference between backseat and dunderhead?

Ones a car part, the other's a HD member . . .
What i suspect you mean . . .
Backset is the liquid left in the still after distilling, used straight away - typicaly refers to a whisky wash/mash
Dunder is the 'backset' from rum.
Dunder (for rum making) os often aged and goes through several successive bacterial/fungal infections that add to the complexity of flavours obtained when it is boiled and added to a new rum ferment, or used to dilute a stripped rum run to give it more flavour.

[baron4406]

So don't keep the dunder in the fridge? Interesting, I always used my backset last year to introduce my new grains and invert my sugar. This year I save a gallon or two of backset to start a new batch. For instance i just started an Odin cornflake wash, in it I used 1.5 gallons of backset from my last Rye bread wash. I simply boiled the backset then added the cornflakes/rye. I plan on keeping this going all year no matter if its a sugarhead or all grain. I love this site.....the experimentation is awesome. I'm starting a 5 gallon bucket with backset, unwittingly I threw out my backset from last year, it was about 20+ generations of UJSSM, looked at it this spring and thought it had to be bad. Big mistake

[dunluce]

So raising a topic from the dead, in the eight years that have passed, did anyone continue with this experiment? Why or why not?
I'm always interested in long term conclusions from experiments!

[Irishgnome]

So raising a topic from the dead, in the eight years that have passed, did anyone continue with this experiment? Why or why not?
I'm always interested in long term conclusions from experiments!

I have played with this a little, few runs with aged whiskey backset/dunder. They haven’t been on oak long enough for me to sample and compare (1.5 years) , so no real input from me at this point.
I stopped saving my backset after reading someone’s post on toxic mold. Scared me enough to dump most of it. I still have two gallons of whiskey backset left and a good amount of rum dunder. With all the different avenues you can venture down with whiskey alone, I would like to get back into this.
Interested in input from Odin and others here.
Cheers
Irish

[tombombadil]

It's on my list of stuff to experiment with but I haven't started yet. Still finishing up a chocolate bourbon run...

To be more specific, my plan is to make a "Heavy Jamaican Korn Likker", try to follow something in line with the cousins process but with a corn whiskey base.

I'm hoping somebody else gets around to it first so I don't screw it up too badly.

[dunluce]

So did anyone actually carry on with this experiment?

[dunluce]

Bump again. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?