Rye & Spelt

Grain bills and instruction for all manner of alcoholic beverages.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Rye & Spelt

Post by Odin »

Okay, how many weeks ago was it? That I stated "the heck with whiskey making"? A month and a half? Maybe less. And most of you told me: Odin your curiousity will soon have the better of you. You will be back soon, trying this, doing that.

I guess not doing that for maybe close to 5 weeks proved you guys wrong. ;)

Anyhow, I couldn't withhold myself to try again. So many grains to research. So much to improve.

What got my motivation running again? Two things. My oats whiskey, the one I allmost discarded because it was just too sour/sulphuric/whatever, just made some quantum leaps forward. It was about the only bottle (half actually) I had left. That's the bad thing about stopping production for a few weeks. And just too many folks liking my Limoncello and loving my Geneva.

I started (re-started) sipping that drink like a week and a half ago. And it was darn good. So one lesson learned (and new motivation found): Odin, don't be hasty! Or rather: be patient. Difficult. But I will try from now on. New definitions on whether a whiskey is okay or not will not be made in weeks time, but in months time. Promissed. Fingers crossed.

Second thing that happened, is that I realized something might be wrong with my sense of smell. Why? Because I was making the food I cook hotter & hotter, saltier & saltier. The kids had tears in their eyes, when I served them dinner. And all I could "taste" was: it could use a bit more spice. Also, I found the white Chardonay wine I like less and less appreciative. Sorta lost its taste. I was sure it was caused by the wine. Until I started to add a few things together.

My wine tastes worse & worse for a year now. My cigars, that I smoke for 20 years, don't suit me. I changed them for a more "pungent" variety. My kids complain about "too many spices" in the food I make. And my whiskey only got worse over the last year. Were all of the producers of these commodities just loosing their touch, or ... was my sense of smell leaving me?

It all made sense. My nose was to blame. Went to the docter. Some research going on. Allergic reactions (histamine) that I didn't have before. Probably caused by the re-introduction of small amounts of diary products into my diet and some grain based stuff I didn't eat for years (allergic to both of them). It slowly stopped the sense of smell and thus hampered my ability to taste correctly.

Okay, a change in diet it is. And a nose spray that frees the nasal path ways. After a few sniffs, I started on the last whiskey I had left: oats. And it tasts great.

I went to the miller, bought 5 kilo's of rye and 5 kilo's of spelt and made a 50/50 combo. UJSSM style. Didn't crush or mill the grains. Just threw them in like that. No clogging, lot's of clear wash and I just stripped gen 1 a few days ago. Good taste, but not full enough yet. I am fractionating it as we speak. Or as I write.

I started up Gen 2 with 30% backset. Took off like a rocket. Most vigourous ferment I ever had. Allmost Turbo Style. First Gen was ready to Rock & Roll in less then a week. This one might be done in 3 or 4 days. 6 kilo's of sugar on a 40 liter wash. Maybe 45. Magic in Spelt?

I will keep you posted on the progress. Anyone any experience with spelt?

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Prairiepiss
retired
Posts: 16571
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:42 am
Location: Somewhere in the Ozarks

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Prairiepiss »

I told you. :lol:

Nice to see you back in the drivers seat again. And I've been wanting to try spelt.
It'snotsocoldnow.

Advice For newbies by a newbie.
CM Still Mods
My Stuffs
Fu Man

Mr. Piss
That's Princess Piss to the haters.
Frosteecat
forum scribe and editing bitch
Posts: 775
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:14 pm
Location: Or-eee-gun

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Frosteecat »

I love anything I've made from oats. I think it is an unsung hero. Having a hard time finding any rye locally....only online.

And your medical story is a word to the wise...make sure your "tools" are all operating properly!!
  “Well, between Scotch and nothin', I suppose I'd take Scotch. It's the nearest thing to good moonshine I can find.”
 William Faulkner (1897-1962)
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Odin »

Mr P,

You told me! Yes, I remember. Good to see you remembered too.

Frosteecat,

Most of my other equipment just works fine.

;)

Odin.

Edit: Oats is underestimated. Takes some time, but it is a complex, interesting taste. Spelt is interesting to work with. It is made purely biologically. Maybe that's why the ferment takes off like a rocket? Taste profile of this combo is difficult to describe. Only at gen 1. But a try. All rye tasted more headsy to me. This actually has a big, broad heart cut. Might be due to extra nutrients provided by the spelt? Not sure. But it gives off something good. I think the spelt adds a lighter tone to the rye.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Frosteecat
forum scribe and editing bitch
Posts: 775
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:14 pm
Location: Or-eee-gun

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Frosteecat »

Damn...I really wish I had a "cuts master" nearby I could go observe. I still don't know how to do that right. Things change so much...not sure what to keep for fear of tossing something that may mellow later....
  “Well, between Scotch and nothin', I suppose I'd take Scotch. It's the nearest thing to good moonshine I can find.”
 William Faulkner (1897-1962)
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by rtalbigr »

I've never tried spelt, but I've done a lot with wheat, and I know spelt is a type of wheat, but that's it. I particularly like red wheat and the slightly spicy note it adds.

I've also done a lot with oats, mostly because I can get always get it here and it's inexpensive. To me it seems to have a fuller taste profile, I was drinkin some just a couple a weeks ago, some stuff about a year old, and was really impressed. I can't remember if I got any left, but I'll get down to the basement and see Odin, if there is I think it's something you'll enjoy.

One thing I haven't done is an oat/wheat combination. I'm finishing up some all corn stuff and can't decide what to do next and a oat/wheat sounds interesting. I have to go back out to Wyoming next month so I may do that when I get back.

I completely sympathize with your problem Odin, honestly, I can't smell S***. When I cook I finally had to take the philosophy that less is better with the spices. I've always had a difficult time judging my spirits so I have to get my daughter to taste and make critical judgements. It's like a guy told me the other day at the park where I go walk each day, "Gettin old ain't for pussy's."

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
Durace11
Distiller
Posts: 1137
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:22 pm

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Durace11 »

Sorghum is another grain alternative like spelt, it comes in a liquid much like LME or honey. Very easy to work with when brewing. It's big with the "gluten free" crowd. Glad to hear your nose is back to being a nose :wink:
Current Evolution:
MrDistiller > 2" potstill > copper 4" perf 4 plate flute

"I seal the lid with Silly Putty, that's OK ain't it ?"
~ kekedog13

"Attach a vibrator to it and hang it upside down. Let it work"
~Mr. P
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Odin »

Thanx! Nose is (almost) back in business. Good! Sorghum, I know the name, not the actual grain. Is it the same as Bulgur? A sort of ancient wheat? For now, my first impressions on spelt are pretty okay. A lighter taste but in 50/50 with rye, that is not going to be a problem. Might actually add some depth.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
heartcut
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2781
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:31 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by heartcut »

Welcome back to whiskey. Assuming you have a bit of neutral left...
heartcut

We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.

W. H. Auden
HolyBear
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:23 am
Location: Prolly diggin through Dnders posts

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by HolyBear »

Odin wrote:Thanx! Nose is (almost) back in business. Good! Sorghum, I know the name, not the actual grain. Is it the same as Bulgur? A sort of ancient wheat? For now, my first impressions on spelt are pretty okay. A lighter taste but in 50/50 with rye, that is not going to be a problem. Might actually add some depth.

Odin.
No sir Sir Odin, not like wheat. Its what we make molasses out of. But is a very large family of grasses. Ifn I remember right, you've used millet right? That is the grain from one type of sorghum. Um, sugar cane is also one of em. Large family, all of em that grow around here you can chew on tha stem and it will be kinda sweet....
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Odin »

Ah, I get it! Mistaken and sorry for it!

Right now stripping gen 2 of my Rye & Spelt UJ. Just starting to drip, but the rye taste is so much there! Just slightly less as compared to my 100% (malted) rye. Spelt adding a bit of lightness to it?

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Frosteecat
forum scribe and editing bitch
Posts: 775
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:14 pm
Location: Or-eee-gun

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Frosteecat »

I can get spelt flour (very finely ground obviously). Will this work in a wash/ferment, and, if so, is it better to combine it with another grain (and in what proportions) or leave it as the only grain in the recipe?
  “Well, between Scotch and nothin', I suppose I'd take Scotch. It's the nearest thing to good moonshine I can find.”
 William Faulkner (1897-1962)
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Odin »

I am pretty sure a four is fine. Since taste is so personal (and my smell & taste have been off for some time), I would just go ahead and try it. I know there is at least one geneva here that is made from a pure spelt base whiskey. Should be fine. My guess is (guess only, because I use it for a first time, and in a combo with rye) will give something closer to a red wheat based whiskey. Maybe a bit spicier?

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Odin »

An update on rye & spelt.

Generation 4 was as fast as the others. Five days to ferment dry? No, less then that. I made a mistake starting up gen IV. I put in an fish tank bubbler to add some oxygen. Gives the yeast some good time together. Reproductive state, that kinda stuff. And then I went to bed and forgot about it. Next morning bubbler still does his job. I take it out and expect it to start right away. No sir! Since there was so much O2 in the wash, the yeast rather multiplied some more. Took a day before it took off. But how! Like a rocket. It was dry in 3 days. Temperature of the wash reached 95 degrees F all on its own.

Some observations: even though it ferments like a rocket, it does not clear well. Actually it does not clear at all. Not in the cold, not with excessive degassing, not with an extra kiezelgoer (?) agent that should normally do the job. Anytime I would look at it, I could see the clouds of yeasties & sollids all over the place.

Some more observations: it is not as bad as it sounds, because the beer is relative low on cloudiness from itsself. May have to do with the fast/clean ferment, and with the fact that I used whole grains and didn't mill them. So the clearing does not take place (or hardly), but it is not so big an issue as it would be with my all barley or oats. The soup is a bit less thick to start with.

Gen 3 I already stripped, without taking cuts. Gave me some 7 liters of 40% low wines. I added those to the 35 liters of gen 4 beer. Distilled them together taking a wide heart cut (small head cut, small tails cut). Why? Because this combination gives a very large portion of hearts. Maybe the nutrients/ingredients are just right? Maybe the spelt (always made in a biological way) does some magic? It would explain the very fast ferments ...

So, a big hearts cut. I ended up with 7 liters of 60%. And since I am out off wood (no pun intended - au contraire!), I decided to drink it white. Now it should age some. Maybe 5 weeks, maybe a bit more. But I decided to dilute to 50%, take out a liter, give it the ultrasonic treatment, pour meself a glass and put in an ice cube.

I am currently sipping on that. No sting to the eyes when you blow in / over the liquid. Normally it does, when fresh. Some heads present and/or too fresh and it stings. This one doesn't. A taste. No burn on the front part of the tongue. So no heads. Sh*t! I could have taken wider cuts still! No burn on the back end of the tongue either, so no tailsy tastes either. Might have gone a bit further there too.

Funny thing is, that when I put an icecube in, it clouds imediately. To me this means: lots of tasty oils in there. Even at 50% abv it does cloud. Taste is good right now. Maybe the best fresh of the still I had. Smooth. 50%? If you said 30% I would believe you as well. The abbundance of oily factions makes me wonder: there will be a lot of taste there to develop over the next few months!

Right now I smell a bit of the floralness of rye up front. Then something new. The spelt? Lingers around. Definately a grainy taste, just not that "in your face". Subtle. Nice. Keep you posted on its development!

About to start gen 5. Last bit of grains went into the backset (30%). And since granulated sugar has become like 40% more expensive in half a year time ... the good news is ... cane sugar (with some molasses) is now equally affordable. Gen 5 wil be with cane sugar. Might add a bit to the taste. Rye & Spelt Sweet Feed? I will let you know.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Frosteecat
forum scribe and editing bitch
Posts: 775
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:14 pm
Location: Or-eee-gun

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Frosteecat »

Sounds great! I'm going to get some spelt flour and oxygenate it heartily!!
  “Well, between Scotch and nothin', I suppose I'd take Scotch. It's the nearest thing to good moonshine I can find.”
 William Faulkner (1897-1962)
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Odin »

And you will be rewarded! All spelt? Interesting! Keep us posted please.

:thumbup: :wave:

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
BlueSasquatch
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:00 am
Location: Midwest

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Reviving this thread Odin, if you don't mind. I came across some spelt, wanted to research it a bit and see how people liked it. You're convincing me to give it a go with some Rye. However I see you use Sugar, I'd rather stick with AG, perhaps just more grain to get the sugar needed, or swap out the sugar for some corn instead? 30% corn, 30% rye, 30% spelt? Well 33.3 or whatever.

How have things changed in 9 years?
"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier
User avatar
rubberduck71
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 735
Joined: Sat May 30, 2020 11:22 am
Location: Eastern PA

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by rubberduck71 »

Odin hasn't been active since Aug 2020, which is a shame because he always responded quickly. Hopefully he's too busy with his distilling equip business.
There are two times of year: FOOTBALL SEASON and... Waiting For Football Season
Fruitmaster
Novice
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:23 am
Location: London

Re: Rye & Spelt

Post by Fruitmaster »

Hi Blue Sasquatch,

I have just seen this whilst researching some different grains. You can definitely use AG but I would also use some beta glucanase, if you aren't opposed to enzymes. Both Rye and spelt have got relatively high gum content and you'll want to get rid of that to free up those sweet sweet starch molecules.
Post Reply