Milk!

Grain bills and instruction for all manner of alcoholic beverages.

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Odin
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Milk!

Post by Odin »

Yes guys, milk! It has sugars in it and should be fermentable. But to what goal? And what are the mistakes all to easily made, "doing" milk? No idea, but let's find out. Together we know more than alone.

Now, if I remember well, cow milk has something in it that makes fermenting ... not easy. But milk powder, added to water? Adding some sugar to the mix. Would that be fermentable? And what kinda drink would it generate? My idea: a nice vodka.

Other sorts of milk? Why not. They may be less available, but we are just starting to explore this topic, so let's keep an open mind.

Horse milk. Mongolians make arak out of it. Fermented mare milk. Supposed to be disgusting and only like 2.5 to 3% in abv. But loads of flavor there. Much more than in cow milk. Pita to distil such a low abv wash though.

Goat and/or sheep milk. More readily available. But is it fermentable? Or are special yeasts needed? Less fat than cow milk is, if I recollect. And some more taste. Maybe a vodka or a light brandy style drink? Who knows.

Camel milk. Friend of mine who works in the diary equipment industry told me they milk camels in the Middle-East. So ... I should be able to obtain that sort of milk too. But can it be fermented? What are the qualities?

For some introductory reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://igreennutrition.com/topics/the-b ... -cows-milk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Milk!

Post by Butterman »

Isnt the problem with anything that is/has protein in it is that it rots?
Fermented milk I think is yogurt and I remember my mom saving 'mothers' of her yogurts to start new ferments in milk.
I will have to do a bit of research and maybe talk to mom as she is a professor of Biology, but I have to think that in history has there even been an alcoholic dairy substance?
And what kind of taste? ewww milk flavor spirits? I like research and possibilities, but dairy? again ewww...

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Re: Milk!

Post by Odin »

Ever tried Kefir, Butterman? That's pretty good ...

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Re: Milk!

Post by Butterman »

Yes.
Good point, yogurty drink, but with a kick like what we do/want?
And then where would the distillation come in? I could maybe see a fermented dairy beer/kefir, that might work but again what does history tell us? Has there even been any dairy alcohol?
I will be looking into this :>
But again milk/dairy/yogurt/kefir distillate... ewwww

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Re: Milk!

Post by Odin »

Yes, milk is historically fermented. Especially in nomadic societies. But as a beer or wine. So not distilled ... even though there are wooden carvings and some pictures of Mongolians distilling what should be fermented horse milk. But what would that get you? From 3% to 6% maybe. The problem in milk fermenting is that the sugar content is not high enough to make it worthwhile to distill. I usually distill beers at around 8 to 10%. First run gets you between 24 and 30%. Second run gets you to 60% or above. Where you need to be for making cuts and ageing on wood. Distilling a 3% milk wine will get you to 6% after run one and to maybe 15 to 18% after a second distillation. A third run is needed for making good cuts. Ageing on wood is not something I imagine, since taste, I expect, will be a bit thin. That's why milk powder might be an interesting solution. Higher sugar content.

But can we ferment those sugars with normal baker's yeast? Dunno.

On the other hand: I do have some kefir cultures left, so maybe we should try that?

Odin.
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Re: Milk!

Post by Butterman »

Im definitely interested in the science of it, but again milk... ewww.
Ive read alot of your posts, well thats not accurate, Ive read some of your post and know how much you like the science and looking around your world for new possible things to ferment, but milk?
Tell me the truth was this because you had just made some likker out of corn flakes and you were eating breakfast and thought why not milk?

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Re: Milk!

Post by HolyBear »

Sir Odin, I have milk goats... we have several gallon bags of milk frozen in the freezer. Spring is near so we will be having little ones soon. That means lots more milk and also means that I need to clean milk out if the freezer.
I have accidently let some milk spoil on occasion, buttermans right, ewww. I suppose though, in the interest of science (and cleaning out my freezer) I might be willing to give it a shot. I'll want to do some reading up on it first.

Lactic ferment comes to mind fer some reason...
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Re: Milk!

Post by Odin »

I think a 2 weeks ferment of plain milk will sour it. But will milk powder turn sour too? Not sure. I am sure ... well, not quite, but thinking of it ... there really should be an interesting voddie in there.

I might give it a try later.

HolyBear, do you have kefir to ferment your goat milk with?

Skinny milkpowder has like a 50% sugar content, where fat milkpowder has only 35%. I think the skinny one is the one to try first.

Butterman: nope, have been tempering with that idea longer. For me it works like this: I love to experiment. Vodka's & brandies I make are good. So is my genever. Whiskey is getting there, so a new challenge is to be found ...

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Last edited by Odin on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Milk!

Post by HolyBear »

Kefir??? No, I have no idea what that is. Is it some sort of yeast?

Edit to add: I guess Dnderpedia isn't awake yet, he might have something to add...
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Re: Milk!

Post by Odin »

http://kefirstore.com/ourkefir.xhtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

It's a sorta plant/yeast that ferments milk. "Tears of Allah", stolen by a Russian mistress from a Caucasian prince around 1920.

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Re: Milk!

Post by Dnderhead »

ordinary yeast wont ferment lactose (used to sweeten some wine) its fermented with bacteria (lactobacillus) and produces lactic acid,,acetic acid and alcohol.(butter milk anyone?)
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Re: Milk!

Post by just-a-sip »

Dnderhead wrote:ordinary yeast wont ferment lactose (used to sweeten some wine) its fermented with bacteria (lactobacillus) and produces lactic acid,,acetic acid and alcohol.(butter milk anyone?)
god all mighty, is there anything you dont know?
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Re: Milk!

Post by Odin »

Dunder,

That does not sound too encouraging ... what ya think? Does a recipe based on diary products stand a chance?

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Re: Milk!

Post by Dnderhead »

some where around 11-12 grams of lactose per 8oz (228g)of milk.
so even if you made all the lactose into fermentable sugar it be less than
5%?.
there is a enzyme (lactade?) that is used by those that is intolerant to lactose.
but dont know as it be worth converting.other than experimenting.
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Re: Milk!

Post by Odin »

I am thinking of using milk powder, so the sugar content goes up and I can get closer to 7.5 to 8%. And I will try to introduce Kefir as a yeast, since it does ferment lactose.

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Re: Milk!

Post by biker geek »

someone posted a link to this http://www.blackcowvodka.co/ site a while back.
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Re: Milk!

Post by Kiwikeg »

Hi odin, there are a a couple of dairy factorys here in NZ that ferment milk whey into vodka for export. I know they use a specialized yeast.
I will have a dig around for some more information and get back to you.
:thumbup:
Edit
Try this link for a start. It looks a very complex process....
Probily not ideal for hobbyista
http://nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/dairy/3H.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Milk!

Post by Odin »

Thanx! If you can find out what sorta yeast/bacteria they use, that would be great. Did you try any of these milk vodka's yourself?

Some reading to do ...

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Re: Milk!

Post by rtalbigr »

Interesting that you would come up with this Odin. I've got some that I am waiting to clear so I haven't actually sampled it yet.

I tackled the lactose problem with Lactaid (Lactase enzymes). I also added a few table spoons of brown sugar because that's what the recipe I had called for. I used bakers yeast.

Now for the problem I encountered.

When the ferment started going good the curd production went wild and I had one hell of a mess. Now, I used whole milk and that could have been part of the problem. A true Kumis is from mare's milk which has less milk fat than cow's milk, so maybe using a 2% milk would be a better option. Second, leaving plenty of head space, perhaps only filling the container 2/3 full, might be pretty important. Part of the importance here is that I noticed the curd was pretty sweet, so ya really don't want to loose any until the ferment is complete, plus the recipe I had called for shaking the stuff up to three times daily and I'm guessing that's to get the sugars out of the curd because it just floats on top.

I racked it once the ferment was completed (7-8 days) but it's taking forever to clear. If this experiment turns out all right I may try it again with some 2%, may do that anyway. Then again I may just get 4-5 gal to ferment and then distill and make some Araka (Arkhi), just to see what it's like.

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Re: Milk!

Post by Odin »

Good read up, Big R! I will await your outcomes before exploring it further myself. Don't remember where I got the milk idea from. Maybe from a personal email talk with you?

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Re: Milk!

Post by sweeps »

I've been making milk wine for several years now. As mentioned above, the key is lactase - I use a bit of crushed Lactaid tablet and leave it overnight before adding the yeast. Also, you need a low-fat milk - I use powdered milk.

I've also made milk jack - like applejack, but from milk wine instead of cider. It is a favorite bedtime drink of mine. Naturally, when I got my first still I ran some milk wine through it. It was OK, but not as good as the milk jack. I should try it again now my stilling skills are a bit more developed.
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Re: Milk!

Post by rtalbigr »

The kumis finally cleared so I could rack it again, so I had a sample. Don't ask me to describe the flavor cuz I can't, but it is a pleasant drink. I think with some aging it will improve nicely. So, I started up a few batches using powdered milk and about a lb of inverted sugar per gal so I can distill and see what I get from that. I'm using Lactaid to convert the lactose. Interesting that the Lactaid alone raised the SG by one point.

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Re: Milk!

Post by rtalbigr »

Observation/suggestions.

1) Do Not :!: use a carboy for the primary fermenter. Whether using whole milk on non-fat dry milk there is significant production of curd. After about two days the curd coagulates into a chewing gum like consistency that is absolutely the devil to get out of a carboy.

2. Leave at least 25-30% by volume head space in your primary and stir the curd back in at least three times daily for the first two days. As the curd separates it takes a lot of the sugar with it, so while the curd is still soft stir it back in to get the sugars back into the liquid.

3. Around the second to third day the curd will coagulate. Scoop it off and transfer remaining liquid to a secondary fermenter. Here a carboy is fine BUT, leave about 20% head space cuz this stuff ain't done foamin!

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Re: Milk!

Post by Odin »

Would the curd make a cheese?

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Re: Milk!

Post by rtalbigr »

Odin wrote:Would the curd make a cheese?

Odin.
I was wondering the same thing Odin. As you might have ascertained from my previous post I have been busy learning from my mistakes, so I wasn't really interested in trying to make some cheese. :(

Normally to make cheese rennet is used to coagulate the milk proteins, but it seems that yeast does the same thing. So I think it would be worth a try to see, and since it is simply a by-product there would be no real added cost. You'd have to catch it before it got to the rubbery state, I'm thinking 18-24 hrs after starting the ferment, scoop it off, add some salt (maybe 1 teaspoon per gallon of initial liquid) and work it in real good, and then proceed to get the remaining liquid out like normally making cheese. If it doesn't work then all that's lost is a little time and effort.

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Re: Milk!

Post by Odin »

Great Big R! Please keep us posted!

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Re: Milk!

Post by sweeps »

I use the curds from my milk wines as a simple cottage cheese. It makes a particularly nice cottage cheese bread.

More on milk wine. A newspaper article about Alaskan priest Father Emmet Engel's milk wine:

http://tinyurl.com/bmoceg4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Father Engel's patent, which has references to cheese making as well as his milk wine:

http://www.google.com/patents/US3737325" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Milk!

Post by Pa Shine »

Just passed by a large box of Whoppers in the store.... sugars and malted milk..... it got me thinking :ewink:
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Re: Milk!

Post by Odin »

Whopper?
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Re: Milk!

Post by mystakilla »

He's talking about them chocolate covered malted milk balls. "Whoppers"
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