All DME wash

[bigbone32]

Hello. Thought I would share my experience with a DME wash I just completed. First I would like to apologize in advance for the mixed measurements. I am an American living in a country that uses the metric system and half my ingredients came with me from the US. I would also like to thank BarneyFife for letting be bother him incessantly the last couple of weeks like a 5 year old asking his dad a million questions. He is a great example of what this forum is all about. So thank you BF.

Per BF's advice I purchased 36 lbs of Muntons light DME and 8 packs of Nottingham Ale Yeast and planned 7 lbs per 5 gals of water. I only have a 20 gallon fermenter so I broke my washes in half. I used 18 lbs of the DME and 40 liters of bottled spring water. I heated half my water to 200 degrees F thinking it may give me somewhat of a hot-break. I haven't distilled yet so we'll see. I heated the water in my 13 gallon milk can boiler and drained it into my fermenter. I then added the DME one bag at a time into the fermenter. Not the best way to do this I found. I stirred it with my drill and stirring stick, added the rest of the water and tested the SG with both a hydrometer and a refractometer. Both were right at 1.070. I thought this was a little high so I added another half to 3/4 gallon of water and the new SG was 1.065. Still higher than suggested on here but I called it good.

I put the wash in a climate controlled room and set the temp to 60 F and let it cool overnight. At about 10 am the next morning the temp was 79 F. I rehydrated the used per package instructions, acclimated the temp of the rehydrated yeast to the temp of the wash and pitched per package instructions. I did not aerate but I did stir enough to make sure the yeast was mixed well. I put it under airlock then waited like an anxious papa with a pregnant wife.

Nothing for 10 long hours. No sizzle no airlock movement, nothing. I was really getting discouraged. Then right before bed, in the 11th hour, magic happened, nuclear size bubbles coming out of the airlock with a big thud. This happened about every minute or two and I was a proud papa. I went to bed, got up early the next morning and the airlock was rolling like a turbo wash. It went like this the entire day. I checked that evening before bed and it had slowed considerably. The next day, nothing again. I checked the SG again, this time only using the hydrometer as refractometers lose accuracy after alcohol is produced. 1.03 temp corrected. I thought i now had a child with complications. No sizzling, no airlock movement and 1.03. So I did the only logical thing, I jumped on the HD google search. After 6 hours of reading I read that CO2 can affect your hydrometer and SG reading and in this case it did. I sterilized a mason jar, dipped in in a star san solution and took enough to fill my glass test jar. I put the lid on and shook it vigorously, removing the lid to let out the CO2 and repeated 2 or 3 times. I tested the flat wash and all was right with the world again, 1.012. I've read on a all DME wash or AG wash for that matter anything near 1.01 is acceptable to to unfermentable sugars or solids so I was very happy with the number.

Today I racked into five 10 liter water jugs and will leave them in the 60F room until they clear and settle. I also started the second and final batch exactly as the first, with the exception of adding the DME with a large bowl, and the SG came out 1.07 exactly the same as the first time. It's in the room cooling and I will pitch the yeast tomorrow. This time I won't panic. I will say this yeast/wash, to me, has a peculiar way about it but now that I have done it once I know what to expect. Also, my last two washes were Uncle Remus Rice Vodka and after that this seems like whipping up a glass of instant tea.

[bluenose]

Anything new to report?

I'm interested to hear how comes out... I have lots of nottingham yeast I harvested from a batch of beer and relatively easy access to DME

[rubberduck71]

Per BF's advice I purchased 36 lbs of Muntons light DME and 8 packs of Nottingham Ale Yeast and planned 7 lbs per 5 gals of water.

Apologies for resurrecting this zombie thread, but I was searching up Nottingham yeast on HD, and this one intrigued me. I see bigbone is still active here, so wanted to check in with him & any others that use Nottingham.

I've used it with ciders, but not on washes for distillations.

Thanks,
Duck

[bigbone32]

Hello Rubberduck71. The yeast was fine and the final product was as good as it could be considering the equipment I had at the time. This was the only time I used that yeast as I was living in Brazil and at the time I could only buy bakers yeast locally. The one thing that sticks out to ne about the Nottingham was the slow take off time.
I do mainly all grain and enzyme mashes as I am back in the US and have easy access to grains now and my go to yeast is Lalvin EC 1118.It has yet to fail me and is pretty fail proof. In fact I just did an all oats/enzyme run yesterday and am cleaning up as we speak. Hope this helps.

[JakeB]

Thanks for resurecting this rubberduck71. I actually just did a wash just like this, but I used 4kg golden light dme, took it to 1.090 with a bit of dextrose (a little high I know, was expecting it to stop around 1.018) and pitched Liquor Quick Whiskey Pure. I was going to try Omega Hothead but they were out so gave the whiskey pure a try. I was shocked it fermented all the way down to 1.001 in 4 days. Cleared and did a stripping run. The result was amazingly good, I am fairly new to this so this exceeded my expectations. I slowed it down about half way through and took off a sample, has a strong maltose flavour with a dry grain finish almost like all bran cerial. Can't wait to run another so I can do a spirit run. Going to rapid age on French oak...

[jimmayhugh]

I've done both DME and LME washes with very good results. I also like the fact that the wash can be made without boiling the wash. I usually just put the water in my fermenter, a 15.5 gal SS keg that has a 4" TC opening, wrap my PBL30 heating blanket around it, and set the Jonhson controller to the yeast's preferred temperature, and let the water come up to temp.

Once the water is at the right temp, I add DME or LME, stirring with a sanitized paint stirrer until I get the SG I want, add the yeast energizer, low temp amylase, and yeast and set it aside.

After a few days the fermentation is complete, so I remove the heating blanket, give it a day or two to allow the yeast to settle, and transfer the wash to my kettle using a clear beer floating dip tube and some pressurized air.

Never had a problem or a bad batch.

[JakeB]

Thanks Jimmayhugh, I did a protein rest myself, my boiler is pretty limited so I was worried I might get a boil over... Only other thing I added was some anti foam, for the same reason. Turned out really well for me... Glad you had good results too.

[JakeB]

Ok so update. I just stripped my 2nd batch of this. I saved the trub in a sterile jar from the first batch and washed it twice with sterile water. I used 4kg of golden light dme again, but this time topped with dextrose to SG of 1.85 instead on 1.090 and pitched the trub from the last batch as my yeast pitch. Like before I reached FG of 1.001 in 4 days, but this time I racked it off the trub before adding a clearing agent and cold crashed for 2 days. Racked a clearer wash in to my boiler. Run went pretty much the same. I slowed it down to a spirit run speed half way through the strip and took off a 200ml sample. This time my sample had less malt sweetness and the grain flavor was closer up front. Interesting, not sure if I pulled my sample at a different time, reusing trub for yeast, or if allowing the yeast more time to flocculate made the difference. I liked both samples in any case. Getting pretty excited about doing a spirit run with this. I collected 3.5 to 4l at about 100 proof low wines from each of 2 stripping runs, and saved 1l of cleared wash at about 11 -12% from each ferment. Hopefully next weekend I will have time to blend all that and proof it down to 80 for a spirit run. Really excited as result so far is fantastic. I bought some medium toast French oak wine aging staves for aging this. After I blend cuts, I'm going to age the result, I'm hopeful this will be a fine spirit in a couple months. I also did wind up getting a pack of Omega Hothead kveik yeast, so after another neutral batch (going to give tffv a try) I'm going to do this again, but with the hothead. Should be interesting.

[subbrew]

I've done both DME and LME washes with very good results. I also like the fact that the wash can be made without boiling the wash. I usually just put the water in my fermenter, a 15.5 gal SS keg that has a 4" TC opening, wrap my PBL30 heating blanket around it, and set the Jonhson controller to the yeast's preferred temperature, and let the water come up to temp.

Once the water is at the right temp, I add DME or LME, stirring with a sanitized paint stirrer until I get the SG I want, add the yeast energizer, low temp amylase, and yeast and set it aside.

After a few days the fermentation is complete, so I remove the heating blanket, give it a day or two to allow the yeast to settle, and transfer the wash to my kettle using a clear beer floating dip tube and some pressurized air.

Never had a problem or a bad batch.

Curious as to why you added amylase? LME and DME have already been mashed so should be converted. Does the amylase convert some of the residual maltose in LME and DME?

[JakeB]

I've done both DME and LME washes with very good results. I also like the fact that the wash can be made without boiling the wash. I usually just put the water in my fermenter, a 15.5 gal SS keg that has a 4" TC opening, wrap my PBL30 heating blanket around it, and set the Jonhson controller to the yeast's preferred temperature, and let the water come up to temp.

Once the water is at the right temp, I add DME or LME, stirring with a sanitized paint stirrer until I get the SG I want, add the yeast energizer, low temp amylase, and yeast and set it aside.

After a few days the fermentation is complete, so I remove the heating blanket, give it a day or two to allow the yeast to settle, and transfer the wash to my kettle using a clear beer floating dip tube and some pressurized air.

Never had a problem or a bad batch.

Curious as to why you added amylase? LME and DME have already been mashed so should be converted. Does the amylase convert some of the residual maltose in LME and DME?

Hey Subbrew, not sure where Jimmayhugh went, but I did notice that when calculating for this recipe on brewers friend, it was supposed to finish at 1.018 due to unfermentable sugars in the malt extract. In beer this would add body. In a still it increases risk of a puke due to foaming. I used liquor quick whiskey pure which contains amyloglucosidase enzyme (according to the package) which they claim continues to break down sugars during the ferment. I was pleasantly surprised to find mine finished out at 1.001instead of the calculators predicted 1.018, presumably because of the enzymes. I held my wash between 120 to 140f until protein settled during mixing this up to further reduce chance of puking (stated out looking creamy, after 30 - 40 minutes it settled to clear dark brown colour, with creamy sediment at bottom). I suspect the unfermentable sugars in malt extract is why Jimmayhugh added enzymes to his. Just a guess, perhaps he will chime in later.

I can also say, though a bit expensive (DME is $11/kg where I am) this wash comes out with a really nice flavour, so far anyways. I will report back again when I do my spirit run as I have only taken small samples by slowing the stripping run half way through so far, those samples tasted great.

[jimmayhugh]

I've done both DME and LME washes with very good results. I also like the fact that the wash can be made without boiling the wash. I usually just put the water in my fermenter, a 15.5 gal SS keg that has a 4" TC opening, wrap my PBL30 heating blanket around it, and set the Jonhson controller to the yeast's preferred temperature, and let the water come up to temp.

Once the water is at the right temp, I add DME or LME, stirring with a sanitized paint stirrer until I get the SG I want, add the yeast energizer, low temp amylase, and yeast and set it aside.

After a few days the fermentation is complete, so I remove the heating blanket, give it a day or two to allow the yeast to settle, and transfer the wash to my kettle using a clear beer floating dip tube and some pressurized air.

Never had a problem or a bad batch.

Curious as to why you added amylase? LME and DME have already been mashed so should be converted. Does the amylase convert some of the residual maltose in LME and DME?

Hey Subbrew, not sure where Jimmayhugh went, but I did notice that when calculating for this recipe on brewers friend, it was supposed to finish at 1.018 due to unfermentable sugars in the malt extract. In beer this would add body. In a still it increases risk of a puke due to foaming. I used liquor quick whiskey pure which contains amyloglucosidase enzyme (according to the package) which they claim continues to break down sugars during the ferment. I was pleasantly surprised to find mine finished out at 1.001instead of the calculators predicted 1.018, presumably because of the enzymes. I held my wash between 120 to 140f until protein settled during mixing this up to further reduce chance of puking (stated out looking creamy, after 30 - 40 minutes it settled to clear dark brown colour, with creamy sediment at bottom). I suspect the unfermentable sugars in malt extract is why Jimmayhugh added enzymes to his. Just a guess, perhaps he will chime in later.

I can also say, though a bit expensive (DME is $11/kg where I am) this wash comes out with a really nice flavour, so far anyways. I will report back again when I do my spirit run as I have only taken small samples by slowing the stripping run half way through so far, those samples tasted great.

What he said. I should have been more precise that I was using glucoamylase to break down the unfermentable sugars that remain in DME and LME. I've has a OG of as high as 1.100 ferment down to 1.005-1.001 using it, with very little off-taste.

[subbrew]

Thank you for the responses. Totally answered my questions. I have yet to do a wash with barley and had not thought about the puking that residual maltose would cause.

[JakeB]

Ok so update on my DME run. I did my spirit run last weekend and haven't had time to post here yet. I ran very very slow for the first 100ml collecting (and dumping out) 100ml of foreshots around 170 proof (keep in mind I'm using a t500, so even when in pot mode I still get some reflux). Took about an hour to collect that at less than 1 drip/sec. I used both a scr and modified reflux to achieve that run speed. I then sped it up to a more than 1 drip per sec to a drip drip spurt sort of speed and collected 4 250ml cuts jars before switching to 500ml cuts for 3 jars, then another 9 250 ml cuts. The heads seemed to be all gone by jar 4, then the cuts were fairly neutral gaining more and more barely flavour starting around jar 6 until about jar 12, then the sweet flavors came until jar 14 at which point ABV was getting low and I was getting more of a wet paper bag flavour. Jar 16 was only 10% ABV and was terrible. I decided to keep jars 4 through 13 and about 100ml of 14. 14 was still sweet, but also a bit tailsey. After blending, I wound up with around 3l at around 68%, which I proofed down to 55% and put exactly 4l of in a glass jar with glass lid and PTFE taped gasket and 1 medium toast French oak wine aging stave that I had also used very briefly on one of my earlier test runs. The stave is about 10" long, but only .25" thick, I used it for about 30 min on an earlier test sample mostly to get it like a second use cask. I have been temp cycling the spirit (room temp one day, then a hot water bath for around 4h the next, then room temp, then fridge the next day and so on), and will do that probably for about 90 days. To be honest, at first I thought I had left too much tails in there trying to chase that sweet malt taste. I tried it again after 24h and it was much cleaner and pretty much what I was hoping for. In total I got 4l at 55% plus about 800ml at 40% white. I plan to compare the aged spirit to the white after aging is complete. I plan on about 90 days with temp cycleing, but will check it after 30 days, and probably every 2 weeks after that until satisfied.

[JakeB]

My all DME spirit run has been aging 18 days now, with temp cycles. I had a little taste last night and it is getting pretty good. It has a distinct taste of its own with a sweet malt finish, the barley flavor has toned down quite a bit. It starts more like a Scotch, but I still get a strong sweet malt finish. Now that it has mellowed some I think I can taste a little bit of tails in there. It is still enjoyable but next time I will narrow down the tails end of the cut, getting a bit less sweet malt, but also cutting out a faint tailsey kind of taste that is still in there with the cut I made. It is getting really good despite a slight tailsey taste on the finish. I will let this go at least 30 days, but at this point I doubt I will keep it on wood the full 90 days I was initially talking about. I need to try out a TFFV (hoping to make something my wife likes), then I think I'm going to do this again, but using Omega Kvick Hot Head and some glucoamylase instead of of Liquor Quick Whiskey pure, doing 3 or 4 strips instead of just 2, and narrow out the tails end of the cut.

[JakeB]

Ok, if anyone is still interested, today is one month aging exactly. I have lost about 500ml to the "angels share" (in my case that's just me testing it as it ages), and it has got to a point where I'm not sure it will get much better. I had stopped temp cycling after about 4 full cycles, so I did heat cycle on Tuesday, room temp yesterday and fridge today. I think tonight, I am going to pop it in the freezer for a couple hours, then pull my oak out and proof it down to 40%. I tried some last night, and the taste has developed to a point where I can no longer taste barley in the sence of tasting raw grain or cereal, it is more like a Scotch with notes of vanilla, Carmel, oak barrel spice and just a slight hint of cinnamon, it still has that sweet finish but does not come off quite as malty as it did at first. As far as the tails I was concerned about, there is still just a slight hint of that wet paper bag kind of tails taste in the finish, but it is only detectable (to me anyways) when it is diluted down to 15% or so. There is no heads bite at all, 55% barrel strength seems similar to commercial whiskey at 40% as far as bite. I think next time I do this, I will make my tails cut a little more conservative loosing some of the malty sweet to get rid of the tails taste. I already bought some Kvick Hot Head for the next batch, which is supposed to leave a slight honey ester. I am currently working on 2 batches of TFFV, then I think I will try version 2.0 of this with the same DME, Kvick Hot Head, Gluco Amolese, and tighter cuts, aged with the other stave of medium toast French oak I have.

[rubberduck71]

Ok, if anyone is still interested, today is one month aging exactly. I have lost about 500ml to the "angels share"

sounds awesome! Pictures???

[JakeB]

Ok, if anyone is still interested, today is one month aging exactly. I have lost about 500ml to the "angels share"

sounds awesome! Pictures???

Still trying to figure out the image hosting thing. Got a free photobucket, but it does not allow direct link...

If you are thinking of trying this, know that this wash is pretty expensive, but also easy and worth the cost imho. Round here, DME costs $11/kg, I used 8kg in total, and a bit of dextrose (optional, I used it to get to desired SG). I used 1 $7pkg of specialty yeast (that included enzymes to help break the maltose down further, used the trub from my 1st strip batch to inoculate my 2nd). There are probably better options, but I got 2 medium toast wine aging staves (about 10" long, 1.5" wide and .25 thick) from Amazon for $20, I used 1 of those. This batch was about $110cad all in, yield was around 4l at 55% of some very nice tasting whiskey (after aging).

I will use the other stave on my next batch of this using Kveik hot head ($15cad) and some glucoamylase. I expect that batch will total more like $120, and I might get a little less since I plan on being slightly more conservative with the tails side of my cuts. Hopefully the next batch will taste even better!

[JakeB]

So, I did another batch of this. I got a new 50l barrel to ferment in, so I did a double batch all at once. I'm thinking next time, I will do 2 double batches and strip them both in to 1 spirit run to get a full boiler charge without adding water. I made a few changes, and so far the difference is interesting. First I used 8kg of golden light dme in 40l wash, added 1kg of dextrose for a SG of 1.81 (I will probably leave the dextrose out next time, and try LME instead). I switched up the yeast, I was happy with the whiskey pure, but I did want to try the hot head... I pitched 1 pack of Omega Hot head, let that get a 12h head start, then pitched 1 pack of whiskey pure. This time it took longer, about 6 days to get to 1.01 FG. I let it rest another 2 days to get it to settle, but did not clear it at all. In to the boiler and stripped, I take forshots even on stripping runs, so I took off 150ml very slow, then cranked er up for each strip, resulting in 1 gallon each of 40%abv. For spirit run, I put the strip plus another approx gallon of water in just to keep my boiler above the minimum charge. I did not reserve any wash this time. I took 200ml of foreshots, then 6 150ml cuts, followed by 3 500ml followed by 8 more 250ml cuts. Heads were completely gone by jar 4, 3 wasn't bad but I put that in faints anyways. 4 actually had a hint of tropical fruit, maybe guava? This time I found some light honey esters in jar 10, then sweet malt in 11 and 12, jar 13 and 14 were malt with a hint of caramel. All of jars 12 through 14 seemed to also have a hint of spice this time. Jar 15 on were definitely tails... not much crossover between tails and sweet flavors this time, and a bit less sweet overall. I blended jar 4 through 14 and proofed to 62% this time. That gave me 1 gallon, plus a little bit, maybe 400 - 500ml. I had saved some white from last time, at 40%, so I proofed down a 20ml sample and tested them against each other. I think this time it is going to come out a lot cleaner, but less malt sweetness and less grain, but with the addition of a bit of honey in the sweet cut, and a bit of spice. I was worried about it being sharper, but it is actually much smoother despite the spice, a bit less sweet, but I can't detect any tails this time. I think smaller cuts at the beginning and end has paid off in that regard. I think probably the reserved wash added sweetness, could be just from going deeper in the tails, but this time there was a clear distinction from sweet end of run flavors and nasty tails. I think the yeast might be where that spice came from (almost pepper, but not quite) but it is hard to be sure, the honey and guava definitely were expected from the yeast, though not enough to notice it after blending. Note I put it on the exact same type of oak stave (French oak, medium toast, 1st use), but this time at 62%, instead of 55%. Should be interesting in a month or so...

[opus345]

Wondering about using Angel yeast with this recipe?

[shadylane]

Once the water is at the right temp, I add DME or LME, stirring with a sanitized paint stirrer until I get the SG I want, add the yeast energizer, low temp amylase, and yeast and set it aside.

Curious as to why you added amylase? LME and DME have already been mashed so should be converted. Does the amylase convert some of the residual maltose in LME and DME?

I can think of a couple reasons why Gluco helps.
It makes more of the LME and DME fermentable.
The yeast get's the job done and flocculates quicker and much more completely.
Ya don't want spent yeast and trub getting boiled when making a fine Whiskey.

On a side note.
I highly recommend lME and DME for smaller batches.
It lets you have success right off the get go while your learning,