"Less/No Malts More Pure Grain Using Liquid Enzymes"

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"Less/No Malts More Pure Grain Using Liquid Enzymes"

Post by moosemilk » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:40 pm

After trying some successful runs of Booners Casual All Corn, I have decided to try it with other unmalted grains alone and in mixes. Rather than clutter up the booners thread, woodshed made a great suggestion to start another so here it is. There are a few of us exploring this territory and one gathering area to share some success or failure, and tips, I feel would be a great benefit.

In my area, there is no local source of malted grains. Shipping can get expensive, especially when needed in our volumes. So enzymes make sense! I am currently using sebstar HTL and sebamyl GL.

Grain ratios, mashing protocol, anything to do with using no malts and all liquid enzymes, even fermenting and nutes/yeast could be up for discussion.

I'm at work now, typing on a phone, but wanted to get this going. I'll come back later and repost, in a bit more detail, of what I have experienced (posted most in booners so far).

One bit of advice right away, and I'm not the first to find this: using 100% all unmalted barley at 2lbs per gallon will slime you.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by woodshed » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:42 pm

Cool moosemilk. Working on a few things myself that will fit here nicely.
Thanks for starting this thread.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by thatguy1313 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:27 pm

Following with interest. Booners will be my first attempt at AG once everything is up and running. Not long off now. Just waiting for Uncle Sam to give me my money back :problem:
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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by shadylane » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:38 pm

Good idea moose.
But don't overlook the use of Liquid Enzymes with Malt.
Start the mash protocol with Alpha amylase at it's preferred temp and pH,
Then add the malt at the best temp and pH for using the natural Beta amylase.
Then add liquid Gluco amylase to finish of the conversion.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by shadylane » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:44 pm

moosemilk wrote: One bit of advice right away, and I'm not the first to find this: using 100% all unmalted barley at 2lbs per gallon will slime you.
And give you Poppie forearms.
I've been using 1.75lbs per gallon. The yield is lower but it easier.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by thatguy1313 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:50 pm

shadylane wrote:
moosemilk wrote: One bit of advice right away, and I'm not the first to find this: using 100% all unmalted barley at 2lbs per gallon will slime you.
And give you Poppie forearms.
.
I don't know why my brain insisted on interpreting this as "poopie forearms" but I was confused for like 13.5 minutes
:eh: :crazy: :lolno:
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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by moosemilk » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:59 pm

shadylane wrote:Good idea moose.
But don't overlook the use of Liquid Enzymes with Malt.
Start the mash protocol with Alpha amylase at it's preferred temp and pH,
Then add the malt at the best temp and pH for using the natural Beta amylase.
Then add liquid Gluco amylase to finish of the conversion.
Good point as well. I have also used malt with the enzymes and unmalted grains. It allows me to use enough of my expensive rye malt for some flavor and conversion, while using the enzymes for further conversion. That way my malt lasts longer, and I get the conversion, with flavor. It's a win-win for me.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by shadylane » Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:02 pm

Popeye forearms.
Back to "No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes" before we get spanked for Hijacking.
Posting with moose

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by HDNB » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:27 pm

Been in the background discussing this for a while with Moosemilk. the enzymes are a lot of fun to work with. i did use some malt in my recipe, but not for conversion, just because it was there.
the first experiment worked out nicely, but i will wait for the OP to give a thumbs up if it was a resounding success or not.
Two more experiments will be underway, one with, one without the malt two row.
This is going to be a great thread!
forgot to add the tip: barley and oats foams and pukes spectacularly!
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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by woodshed » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:36 pm

The enzymes ability to still work hard in conjunction with the yeast during fermentation is really nice. With the Ultra Ferm I am using now I am routinely hitting .991 or .990. Never had that happen before even with the Seb products. That is maximizing the grain allowing for smaller grain bills.
All for less cost. And the enzymes are cheaper than malted grains.
Used in conjunction with some malt provides the best of both worlds.
Sweet.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by rager » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:06 pm

ill be following this thread, I gotta look into these enzymes a little more. the fact that are used with regular malt and low lower the amount of malt needed sounds good in my book from a cost perspective .

cheers everyone

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by Brutal » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:23 pm

woodshed wrote:The enzymes ability to still work hard in conjunction with the yeast during fermentation is really nice. With the Ultra Ferm I am using now I am routinely hitting .991 or .990. Never had that happen before even with the Seb products. That is maximizing the grain allowing for smaller grain bills.
All for less cost. And the enzymes are cheaper than malted grains.
Used in conjunction with some malt provides the best of both worlds.
Sweet.
Those numbers are craaazy. I'm going to order some of those asap.

I've got a plan that mostly fits this thread. I'm going to do one more all corn on steam just to make sure I am getting the volumes right, and then I want to do a big batch of "bourbon." I've got about 25 pounds of a few various malts that I've had on the shelf for too long to trust them to convert starches on their own. I want to do a 100 pound grain bill of 75% corn, and 25% the rest of these malts (one is actually torrified wheat, not malt.) I plan to combine all the grains, Sebstar, and the water first, then heat it up in steps with a good 30 minute rest at 150. Hold at 190~ for an hour, then add the Sebamyl on the way back down at 150~. Should result in very good conversion, no chance of infection from malt bugs, and hopefully some great flavor. Looking forward to sharing the experience of it all here with you good folk, and sharing the result in Colorado with any and all good folk who make it in June.

Great thread Moose. Lets post this bitch full of awesome boys!
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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by woodshed » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:42 pm

Was hitting .993 with SEB, a fine product. These are more concentrated though. I'll post up a photo tomorrow so you all can see.
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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by woodshed » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:05 pm

I'm thinking next up for me is millet. Just cause. I have no idea what flavor profile it offers but my gut says it would be good with corn.
Never ignore that feeling.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by Fidget » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:57 pm

woodshed wrote:I'm thinking next up for me is millet. Just cause. I have no idea what flavor profile it offers but my gut says it would be good with corn.
Never ignore that feeling.
Millet is relatively cheap round here...be interested to hear how you get on,

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by shadylane » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:52 am

Keeping the corn from turning into a pot of glue while it's cooking, is one of the benefits of using high temp Alpha.
The high temp Liquid Enzymes are cheap enough, a small dose can be added during the cooking step.
It will be denatured by the heat but not before it thins the mash down quite a bit.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by LBHD » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:58 am

Need some sort of high temp proteinase for rye! Anyone know a biochemist?

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by 3d0g » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:48 am

LBHD wrote:Need some sort of high temp proteinase for rye! Anyone know a biochemist?
Why protease (I assume that's what you meant)? A high-temp beta-glucanase is what you want. SEBflo-TL works perfectly at rye gelatinization temps.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by Jimbo » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:02 am

woodshed wrote:I'm thinking next up for me is millet. Just cause. I have no idea what flavor profile it offers but my gut says it would be good with corn.
Never ignore that feeling.
Shed, Koval's bourbon is 51% corn and 49% millet. Its an interesting twist. Their straight millet I preferred white over the oaked version. Which was odd. Anyway, youre results will certainly vary. They use 6 plates for their whiskey and pull it off at 85-90% if I recall. So high that they have to use weird wording to get around some regulations. Like the rye whiskey, they have to say Whiskey, and put Rye n the next line cause its distilled at too high a proof. They think the cleaner taste appeals to more people...... I think they are compromising quality, but to each his own..... Anyway, Im babbling again. Out.
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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by Halfbaked » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:04 am

Millet makes very fine drop. Its taste fruity and not at all what I expected. It has very fine berry. The interesting thing (and it may have been me) the smell does not match the taste. The taste is lots better than the smell. If you do a millet might I suggest that you make good notes and do a thread. I think there is interest in it.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by woodshed » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:14 pm

I will do so Halfbaked.
Will have beta gluco available soon for those nasty thick mashes.
Think all rye or barley.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by thumper123 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:48 pm

This thread is very welcome. I've been trying to get more people into using enzymes for quite awhile. ALL the craft distillers in my area use them, and I have it on good authority that major distillers also do. I believe they are the answer to cheap sacchrification of grain. I am currently using enzymes supplied by Mile High, and I couldn't ask for more. I use alpha and glucose amylases to achieve what used to cost me big time in malts.

A little effort is needed to adjust the PH between the addition of the alpha and glucose, and an added initial expense might be a good PH meter if you don't already have one. Ph seems to be very important. I started out with strips and quickly learned the approximate quantity of backset needed to adjust my washes, but there can be surprises so it pays to check, check, check. Your hydrometer will teach you more than you can read on this forum.

After all those years using malt for my AG creations, I did find however, that I missed the flavor of 6 row and wheat malt so I still use enough to satisfy my tastes. That's still a whole lot less than I used formerly though, and a hell of a lot cheaper. One guy on the forum thought it might be nice to use only enzymes for conversion so that the true flavor of corn would be unimpeded. Neat idea.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by woodshed » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:52 pm

Sounds like Booner's :think:

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by Jimbo » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:09 pm

yep see booners for all corn and enzymes.

the jury is still out for me on enzymes. They sure are convenient, but my favorite drop is still my wheat single malt. I have not been able to duplicate that with wheat grain and enzymes. There's something about barley malt in bourbon also. Malt definitely contributes its own flavor, and its not a bad flavor /sarcasm. An interesting experiment I want to do is to make one of my beer recipes with rolled barley and enzymes and use no malt. And then compare the flavor side by side with the malt version. Should be pretty revealing about what straight enzymes and lack of malt are taking away, if anything, from the flavor of these drinks we make
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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by woodshed » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:26 pm

I think some malt is needed in anything other than the all corn. Even then some malted corn changes the flavor. Cool thing about the zymes is the ability to use less malt. More as a flavoring agent than for conversion.
Higher yield also a bonus with the zymes. Gotta like more bang for your buck.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by MichiganCornhusker » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:39 pm

Jimbo wrote:An interesting experiment I want to do is to make one of my beer recipes with rolled barley and enzymes and use no malt. And then compare the flavor side by side with the malt version. Should be pretty revealing about what straight enzymes and lack of malt are taking away, if anything, from the flavor of these drinks we make
I did something like that a month or two ago. I did 100% versions of the various grains, unmalted, using enzymes. At the same time I pulled off about a gallon of the wort and boiled it up with an equal amount of malted barley, and a small amount of hops, and then primed it and bottled it just like beer. So I have oat, rye, wheat, corn, and barley beers that have been sitting ever since. I got a little discouraged because I scorched the 100% rye spirit, so I set the experiment aside. With all my other irons in the fire, I sorta forgot about them. I'm headed out of town, but I'll have to remember to get into them beers when I get back. Of the other pure grain spirits that didn't scorch, I really liked the oats and the barley.
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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by murdoch » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:30 pm

I am in the process of a mixed mash so to speak. It consisted of the following.

15# of cracked corn
5# of sweet feed - had it left over and figured why not.
Combined all in BOP at 180. I used the liquid enzymes. Kept it in the 85° range. Starting SG was 1.08 and it finished at 1.00. Transfered to secondary after it cleared and if all goes well I will strip Friday. Very anxious to see what the outcome is. This is my very first attempt with no sugar. Just conversion and the molasses in the SF. Will post results after I strip. It's simply amazing to me that you can actually see the Sebstar HL shred through it when you add it in.
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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by thatguy1313 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:51 pm

I was interested in trying this on sweetfeed. I like "rumsky" I'll probably make up my own "wet cob" to try it with. Very interested in your results.
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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by shadylane » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:27 pm

I made a small batch of sweet feed that was converted with enzymes and didn't much like the flavor.
But an experiment using home made wheat malt and enzymes was a hit.
The wheat malt was just past the chit stage and looked like it was going to mold, so I dried and toasted it.
The malt was under-modified and would have been unusable without adding enzymes.
I definitely liked the flavor of the shine and will be doing the experiment again.

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Re: No Malts, Pure Grains With Liquid Enzymes

Post by thecroweater » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:54 pm

No malt means no Malt flavour to me it just taste wrong, not bad but not right, all corn may well be way different as I have never tried it but what I did regarding other grains I'm not in a hurry to repeat
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