Neutral Wash

Grain bills and instruction for all manner of alcoholic beverages.

Moderator: Site Moderator

defcon4
Swill Maker
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:09 pm
Location: Blue rock hurtling 'round the Sun

Neutral Wash

Post by defcon4 »

I've just finished building a nixon stone reflux still (based loosely on the Bokabob designs).

I was reading through some of the old threads on <u>neutral</u> washes (not just washes based on sugar) and noticed that most call for tomato paste as a yeast nutrient and epsom salts for magnesium.

Looking at my yeast energizer, it says that it contains the following: DAP, Yeast hulls (biotin), Magnesium Sulphate, and Vitamin B complex. It sounds like these are all the yeast nutrients needed. If I were to use this nutrient mix and sugar alone following the amounts listed in the summary section at the top of the sugar washes section on the home site, would it work as a neutral wash or would I only be duplicating a turbo yeast that would taste bad?

Has anyone tried this?
Towering in gallant fame,
Scotland my mountain hame,
High may your proud
standard gloriously wave,
Land of my high endeavour,
Land of the shining rivers,
Land of my heart for ever,
Scotland the brave!
pintoshine
Distiller
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:30 pm

Post by pintoshine »

I have done just what your are suggesting. The yeast nutrient used alone in a wine must uses the prescribed amount on the bottle, because it already has nutrients to start with. If you are planning to use it alone, you need to double up on the prescribed amount.

For a sugar wash to ferment easily and not have much lag, it is recommended to invert the sucrose first. This is done but boiling for a 1/4 to 1/2 hour with acid. Since you are able to obtain yeast nutrient you should be able to get citric acid also. 1/4 tsp(1 ml.) per gallon(4 L) should be sufficient. This will also lower the ph enough to ward off contamination for bacteria.
It works best if you mix all your sugar in some water with your yeast nutrient and acid and boil it all together.

The nutrients are not usually the cause of the turbo off flavors, its the yeast strain. You will want to use a clean strain that can handle up to 16 - 18% ABV such as the Lalvin EC1118 or Red Star champagne yeast. I have been using Red Star champagne exclusively for two years now and am very happy with it.

I wouldn't go above a starting gravity of 1.100 to 1.110 because the intially high sugar content can stress the yeast due to osmotic pressure. If you wnat it to finish higher and faster then stacking the sugar (incrementally adding) will give better result. This would be such as starting with 2 lb per gallon and later adding two doses of 0.5 lb per gallon after 48 hours each.
This is a total of 32 oz/gallon which is a total alcohol potential of 15%. This staged feeding has been known to stick a fermentation but experimentation is the key to finding the yeast tolerance in your environment. The same setup in my environment may not behave the same with all things duplicated. But I know you can find something that works to your expectations.

The only cleaner wash that I have ever made is the Dr. Stone method of water, sugar, massive amounts of dry yeast, heat and constant stirring.
defcon4
Swill Maker
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:09 pm
Location: Blue rock hurtling 'round the Sun

Post by defcon4 »

thanks pintoshine, thats exactly what I was thinking of doing. I did forget to mention that I do invert the sugar (i use a bit more acid than that and I use an acid blend of tartaric, malic, and citric acids) and I planned on an SG of 1.075-1.080 to give me around 10% ABV, just to keep the yeast as least stressed as possible.

So I'll make a wash with double the yeast energizer recommended on the bottle and use a champagne yeast.

I might even add some well rinsed activated carbon to the wash to make it even more neutral.

The reason I want an absolutely neutral wash is cause the calculators on homedistiller say my column will get 93%ABV from a stripped (50%ABV) wash.
Towering in gallant fame,
Scotland my mountain hame,
High may your proud
standard gloriously wave,
Land of my high endeavour,
Land of the shining rivers,
Land of my heart for ever,
Scotland the brave!
pintoshine
Distiller
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:30 pm

Post by pintoshine »

That sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it turns out. I know it will ferment. The questions is how fast. I have had a lot of sugar washes stick for various reasons. If they get nearly complete and stick I run them anyway and then recycle the whole thing as the next batch adding sugar and more nutrients.

Several have told me, that for the simplicity and cost, the wheat germ and acid wash is about as neutral as one can get. Several I have talked to have had really good success. You might want to try that one once also if you haven't already.
http://www.kretschmer.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow is the one available in the USA. Did I remember correctly that you are in Scotland? I would be interested in knowing what type of wheat germ was available in your area.
I have also tried the tomato paste wash too. I don't like its flavor much. It doesn't taste good to me before it is distilled and the same spoiled tomato taste seems to show up after twice through the column. Maybe it is just me being picky.
wineo
Distiller
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:33 pm

Post by wineo »

You might want to stay away from the malic acid.It causes more heads.I just use citric,or tartaric.The citric is the better inverter.
BW Redneck
Trainee
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:57 am
Location: 1000 acre farm, Ohio

Post by BW Redneck »

I use some of the lactic acid in the backset from the previous batch to invert mine. It works, and it's damn near free. :D
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance... baffle them with bullshit."
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."
"Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see"

20lt small pot still, working on keg
defcon4
Swill Maker
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:09 pm
Location: Blue rock hurtling 'round the Sun

Post by defcon4 »

I'm from Scotland but I live in America currently. I've got some of that kretschmer wheat germ in the fridge, I don't remember what kind of wheat germ was available in the UK area as I was only a wee lad.
I was afraid about stuck mashes with only yeast energizer and sugar, that's why I chickened out and dumped in 6oz of tomato paste into the 5 gallon batch I just started today. I did add 1/2 cup of well rinsed activated carbon though, maybe that will help take care of that tomato flavor before distilling. It's fermenting away at an average speed already so I'll see how it turns out and post the results

Maybe this is why the big vodka makers use wheat, and maybe it's why the DWWG recipe is best. I'll have to make a small batch of it and see how it comes out.
Towering in gallant fame,
Scotland my mountain hame,
High may your proud
standard gloriously wave,
Land of my high endeavour,
Land of the shining rivers,
Land of my heart for ever,
Scotland the brave!
pothead
Rumrunner
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:46 am
Location: at my freakin' computer

Post by pothead »

i never had any tomato flavor in my product when using paste
"Be nice to America, or we'll bring democracy to your country."
"The best things in life aren't things."


"Imagination is more important than Knowledge"-Albert Einstein
User avatar
Tater
Admin
Posts: 9678
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:19 am
Location: occupied south

Post by Tater »

pothead wrote:i never had any tomato flavor in my product when using paste
I havent either.
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
birdwatcher
Swill Maker
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:27 am
Location: Ontario

Neutral Wash

Post by birdwatcher »

tater wrote:
pothead wrote:i never had any tomato flavor in my product when using paste
I havent either.
Me neither.

G
My sugar wash for ethanol is under the Tried and true recipes forum.
defcon4
Swill Maker
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:09 pm
Location: Blue rock hurtling 'round the Sun

Post by defcon4 »

Well I'm testing my reflux still with some other stripped washes right now and the still itself isn't looking too good. I may have to scrap it as it was a poor design anyways, I tried to use copper that I already had lying around but I didn't expect it to screw up this bad. I'm currently collecting 87% ABV off of a 45-50% ABV still charge. I could accept 90% but 87% is pushin my limits. :(

Nice to know that tomato taste doesn't carry over though. Maybe it's because ya'll have columns that output 95.7%ABV :)
Towering in gallant fame,
Scotland my mountain hame,
High may your proud
standard gloriously wave,
Land of my high endeavour,
Land of the shining rivers,
Land of my heart for ever,
Scotland the brave!
defcon4
Swill Maker
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:09 pm
Location: Blue rock hurtling 'round the Sun

Post by defcon4 »

Ok, now I've got some 91% and 92% coming off. Still leaves a lot to be desired though. As soon as I get more money, I'll be itching to build a proper column. Maybe a 4-5 foot tall 1.5 inch diameter column.

I'm anxious to see how well the carbon in the tomato ferment removes the flavor.
Towering in gallant fame,
Scotland my mountain hame,
High may your proud
standard gloriously wave,
Land of my high endeavour,
Land of the shining rivers,
Land of my heart for ever,
Scotland the brave!
pothead
Rumrunner
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:46 am
Location: at my freakin' computer

Post by pothead »

even in my potstills I never got any tomato flavor.

My advice, slow it down.
"Be nice to America, or we'll bring democracy to your country."
"The best things in life aren't things."


"Imagination is more important than Knowledge"-Albert Einstein
wineo
Distiller
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:33 pm

Post by wineo »

I have heard a few say they could taste it.I have never ran one with the paste.I have 2 washes going with potato water,and it works for a neutrent.
I havent distilled them yet,but they should be clean.Once I do a few more of them,to make sure they ferment good,I will be posting the recipe.One is done,and was fermented at 64f.It never stopped,but took 20 days.The 2nd one is at 1020 and its been 12 days.Its cold in my basement,so its taking longer.
defcon4
Swill Maker
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:09 pm
Location: Blue rock hurtling 'round the Sun

Post by defcon4 »

Cooler ferments usually produce fewer congeners and off tastes too.

Makes me wonder if it would possible to get an ULTRA neutral wash by doing a sugar wash with lager yeast and fermenting at lager temperatures, at those temps though, there would definitely have to be a good amount of nutrients (maybe use the DWWG recipe), and it would be required to do a large 2 liter starter for a 5 gallon batch and perform a very thorough diaceytal rest.

I won't try that till much later in the future though.
Towering in gallant fame,
Scotland my mountain hame,
High may your proud
standard gloriously wave,
Land of my high endeavour,
Land of the shining rivers,
Land of my heart for ever,
Scotland the brave!
wineo
Distiller
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:33 pm

Post by wineo »

Not that it would be the same,but i did a corn malt ferment with lager yeast,and it tasted really spicy and sweet.I potstilled it.I didnt do the long rest.Ive been fermenting my sugar with 1118,and have been getting really clean stuff.Im going to try some distillers yeast on the next batch,but dont know if it will do as good in the cold.I have a pound of it.
User avatar
Tater
Admin
Posts: 9678
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:19 am
Location: occupied south

Post by Tater »

defcon4 wrote:Cooler ferments usually produce fewer congeners and off tastes too.

Makes me wonder if it would possible to get an ULTRA neutral wash by doing a sugar wash with lager yeast and fermenting at lager temperatures, at those temps though, there would definitely have to be a good amount of nutrients (maybe use the DWWG recipe), and it would be required to do a large 2 liter starter for a 5 gallon batch and perform a very thorough diaceytal rest.

I won't try that till much later in the future though.
the distillers yeast works well at higher temps with no ill affects added to taste.
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
pintoshine
Distiller
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:30 pm

Post by pintoshine »

I have found that long fermentations at any temp and high sugar with any yeast can introduce off flavors. Lower sugar 1.080 or so, fast ferment which requires 75 to 80 F and good quality nutrients is the key to a good neutral.
ausmarty
Novice
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:11 pm

Post by ausmarty »

I have used turbo yeasts for years and have just distilled a tomato paste wash "bird watchers recipe" and I must say I couldn't say that it was any better or worse than a turbo wash
CoopsOz
Distiller
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:00 am
Location: Didjabringyabongalong

Post by CoopsOz »

You saved yourself $8 bucks though!
It is most absurdly said, in popular language, of any man, that he is disguised in liquor; for, on the contrary, most men are disguised by sobriety. ~Thomas de Quincy, Confessions of an English Opium-Eater, 1856
HookLine
retired
Posts: 5628
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:38 am
Location: OzLand

Post by HookLine »

CoopsOz wrote:You saved yourself $8 bucks though!
That is the main reason I use tomato paste, etc, instead of Turbos. $$$
Last edited by HookLine on Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.
ausmarty
Novice
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:11 pm

Post by ausmarty »

Yep, I sure did save 8 bucks :D, I thought the idea of the tomato paste wash was to get a cleaner spirit, I'll keep doing it this way to save the dollars, but if there's a recipe out there that will give me a cleaner spirit I would sure like to know about it.
I have made several stills and have settled on the vapour control type mainly because it is so easy to control and very stable throughout the run
HookLine
retired
Posts: 5628
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:38 am
Location: OzLand

Post by HookLine »

ausmarty wrote:I have made several stills and have settled on the vapour control type mainly because it is so easy to control and very stable throughout the run
I haven't tried any other type of reflux still, but I certainly find my VM still very easy to use and very stable and predictable through the run.
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.
wineo
Distiller
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:33 pm

Post by wineo »

Im suprized the birdwatchers wash wasnt better than the turbo.Did you let it clear?I have been making a wash with mexican sugar{raw} thats real clean,and taste good.I have been potstilling it.It is so clean that the only part I threw out was 200ml of forshots.I collected to 35% and kept it all.I have been saving it up for a 2nd run.I watered down 1 batch for drinking{40%} and its better than any vodka you can buy,by far.When I do a 2nd run,it will just get better,but its going to be a while,I still have 22 gallons to strip first.
ausmarty
Novice
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:11 pm

Post by ausmarty »

The wash was quite clear when I distilled it ,with a reflux still it doesn't make a huge amount of difference as i'm pulling it out at 95%, I'm not saying the product was bad, all i'm saying is that I couldn't say it was better or worse than a turbo yeast.
I geuss like everyone else I strive for perfection, but i think there's only so far you can go
birdwatcher
Swill Maker
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:27 am
Location: Ontario

Neutral Wash

Post by birdwatcher »

HookLine wrote:
CoopsOz wrote:You saved yourself $8 bucks though!
That is the main reason I use tomato paste, etc, instead of Turbos. $$$

Exactly,

Have a good day.

G
My sugar wash for ethanol is under the Tried and true recipes forum.
Still_Crazy
Bootlegger
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:38 am
Location: 7th Floor, West Wing, nervous hospital

Re: Neutral Wash

Post by Still_Crazy »

birdwatcher wrote:
HookLine wrote:
CoopsOz wrote:You saved yourself $8 bucks though!
That is the main reason I use tomato paste, etc, instead of Turbos. $$$

Exactly,

Have a good day.

G
Ok everyone using paste then and not tomato sauce? I used paste a few times and now have two 5 gal ferments going using sauce. Tomato sauce is sure easier to add ie just open and pour in opposed to digging out the paste and mixing well with water then adding to the fermenter. I think the sauce was 19 cents for 1 8-oz can.
Don't have the cans in front of me at the moment so can't say what the difference is. I'll look at the cans this evening and will check the SG on both washes. They are in the 'hot box' chamber running since Sat. OG was 1.075.

p.s. what about Ketchup (or less commonly catsup) also known as Tomato Ketchup :?: It's in the fridge right next to the lemon juice.
~ After all these years, a drop in time helps soothe my mind ~
HookLine
retired
Posts: 5628
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:38 am
Location: OzLand

Re: Neutral Wash

Post by HookLine »

Still_Crazy wrote:Ok everyone using paste then and not tomato sauce?

p.s. what about Ketchup (or less commonly catsup) also known as Tomato Ketchup :?: It's in the fridge right next to the lemon juice.
Correct, I use tomato paste.

What is the difference between tomato sauce and Ketchup? I thought they were the same.
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.
arkansas
Bootlegger
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:17 pm
Location: Arkansas

Post by arkansas »

Ok,

Tomatoe sauce, off the back of the can,

tomato puree(water, tomato paste), water, less than 2% of: salt, citric acid,spice, tomato fiber, natural flavor.

Just happened to be making sloppy joes tonight and like mine with tomato sauce better than paste, just cut the water.
:D
Uncle Jesse
Site Admin
Posts: 3924
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:00 pm

ketchup

Post by Uncle Jesse »

Ketchup has more sugar than coca cola, from what I've been told.
If only the best birds sang, the woods would be silent.
Post Reply