Makers Bill

[Swedish Pride]

I was not going to do a write up on this one since it's nothing new, it's an existing grain bill and very close to NChootch's burboun as well if i remember correctly.
But as TurtleLA wanted to know I thought I'd oblige, if nothing else you can all see how's shoddy my protocol is.

So grain bill
14kg flaked maize
3.2 kg malted wheat
2.8 kg malted barely

75L water
5l backset
15ml of both enzymes
1TBS epsom salt

Fill keg up to the brim (50l) from the hot water tap.
Bring it up to just under boiling temp 95C or 203F.
dump water on the maize already put in to the barrel, stir, add first enzyme, cover.
After 90 min add a gallon of backset to drop PH for second enzyme, stir to get temps down to add malt and second enzyme, took a good 30 min.

note, could not get a good PH reading, with all the crap floatign about in the mash, I have a ph test that you add a solution to a sample of the mash, hard to see the proper colour with suspended bits of corn in there, I added the shell of two eggs to counter act the PH if it got to low.

So after a total of two hours of steeping the corn, I added the Malt and the second enzyme at around 62c /145f.
Stirred to make sure there was no doughballs, cover over night.

Make up two yeast starters, the primary one with Barkers a secondary one with lager yeast.
Reasoning behind this is that after a few days the temps get to low for the bakers to work properly, but the lager yest works well at lower temps.
This is the first time I tried this, might be a bust or might be brilliant.

in the morning I added 25 l of water, stirred and added yeast and 1TBS of epsom salt

OG 1.030
Shocking OG again, I bet this is due to not using the full amount of water initially to help with the convertion, I have to make a sacrifice to the enzyme gods and hope they bail me out again and keep working throughout the fermentation.
Reason for not adding all the water initially is that I don't have a wort chiller to bring her down to pitching temps and need to add water for this.

did a check after two or three days, can't remember, was down to 1.01 and around 22C/ 72f. A bit to cold for bakers so I added the lager yeast.
Was bubbling away slowly yesterday, will see what the gravity is tonight, may run her if around 1.

[der wo]

-what was the temp after stirring the maize in? Perhaps too low for the maize?
-was the first enzyme high temp alpha? If not, it was too hot perhaps?
-why adding the second enzyme (glucoamylase I think) at 62°C? It's too hot. I think 55°C is good
-what was the final volume? If it was 90l, you should have got OG 1.060.
-without the 25l in the morning, you would have with good conversion OG 1.085. As you mentioned, this means, you mashed very thick.

In your situation, after realizing this low OG, I had pitched in some more of both enzymes. So it would be sure, that there are enzymes working while fermentation.

[Swedish Pride]

82c / 180 f when I added maize
yep, high tep ones from enzymash
Temp should be ok for second enzyme, I have bookedmarked 3dog's enzyme temp chart, i take it as gospel http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p7305818
final liquid volume was close to 80l, yes, should have gotten better conversion, didn't think of adding more enzymes when i was pitching... next time i screw up i will (meaning next mash)

[der wo]

Probably you are right about the SEBamylGL. Anyway, normally if you had too high temps it would result in a good OG but high FG. But it looks, that you will get a good FG. So I think the problem was the gelatinization. I don't know, how it is exactly with flaked maize, but a low OG normally is because of too low temp or short duration gelatinization.

[Halfbaked]

SP I bet it will be fine drop. I would drink that.

[skow69]

I have never used flaked maize, but I thought the advantage was that it got gelatinized during the "flaking" process. Is this not true? Could someone explain how raw corn gets turned into flaked maize?

[Swedish Pride]

I hope so, I'm not a bourbon drinker really, may have to gift it away if I don't fancy it.
Don't know why I play around with grainbills instead of going for a T&T, I'm just a bit slow.
Have to fail a few times on my own before I take advise ....

[der wo]

I have never used flaked maize, but I thought the advantage was that it got gelatinized during the "flaking" process. Is this not true? Could someone explain how raw corn gets turned into flaked maize?

I thought this too. I have heard, they do something with steam and roll it. But I don't know, how long the steam treatment is, what means, how complete the gelatinization is. Something like cornflakes is cooked of course, but not the animal feed flakes.
But the results of SP are obviously pointing in this direction for me.

[Swedish Pride]

Don't think it's the maize that is to blame, I had the same low OG on a Irishish mash that used the same protocol http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=57347
I think I just need to mash in with the full amount of water to get the OG up to where it should be at and risk the wild ferment

[der wo]

Perhaps.
Of course, mashing with the whole water is easier, but with the amount you took not impossible.

I recommend you, next time cook the maize. Perhaps loosen it up a bit with a small portion high temp alpha before boiling.

BTW: Is it really true, that Makers use malted wheat, not unmalted?

[Swedish Pride]

actually i'm not sure, I just assumed it was as i felt it was a low amount of malt with just the barley.
Don't have the amenities to boil the maize, if I do this bill again I will use all the water initially, that should give it at least an hour's longer high temp rest, best i can do bar boiling in 3kg batches, and I'm far to lazy for that

[der wo]

I don't think their wheat is malted.
The usual amount of malt in bourbon is between 8 and 14%. If you have 6-row Gibb malt, apparently it's enough. But anyway, they add enzymes to accelerate the conversion.
You have 33% malted grains in your grain bill, plus you added enzymes. So the amount of dp should be no problem. If the numbers (duration and temp) you gave us are correct, there must be another explanation.
With my mashing protocol I can convert everything with 20% 2-row (it has a little less dp than 6-row, but I take the highest dp 2-row available) without using enzymes. I always use polenta or corn flour and always cook it. And I start mashing with 80% of the water (SG ca 1.095), so I can add 20% backset after conversion (SG ca 1.077). I had a few problems with high FG at the first trials, but never with a low OG.

[Swedish Pride]

got a decent yield, stripped over the weekend, got 4 x imperial gallon jugs full, at about 30%, happy enough with that.
Better protocol would improve that for sure.
Will have to do the spirit run next weekend, don't have time during the week.

[Swedish Pride]

Only got around to running it this weekend.
Got just under 5l at 65%,will tuck it away for a while, might have a bit for xmas to see where it's at

[Swedish Pride]

had a wee nip there now, it's bloody fantastic.
Have spent time on ex bourboun oak that had a second filling of cherry and some time with jd chips, some time with apple wood.
Also been topped up a few times with AG Corn and a mixed AG grain bill.

Will be hard to replicate but will last some time, have lots of other stock

[Pikey]

note, could not get a good PH reading, with all the crap floatign about in the mash, I have a ph test that you add a solution to a sample of the mash, hard to see the proper colour with suspended bits of corn in there, I added the shell of two eggs to counter act the PH if it got to low. ............

You canget a decent ph meter for around £10 from any decent Garden centre - wot the gardeners stick in the ground to measure their soil. Saves all that pissing about and is a great bonus f you're colour blind like me !

[rad14701]

note, could not get a good PH reading, with all the crap floatign about in the mash, I have a ph test that you add a solution to a sample of the mash, hard to see the proper colour with suspended bits of corn in there, I added the shell of two eggs to counter act the PH if it got to low. ............

You canget a decent ph meter for around £10 from any decent Garden centre - wot the gardeners stick in the ground to measure their soil. Saves all that pissing about and is a great bonus f you're colour blind like me !

Many soil pH meters will not work in liquids... In fact they don't even work properly in freshly watered soil... The meters I have explicitly state this fact and I even had to prove it to myself years ago... Thought I'd try it instead of using test strips or the sample and drops method, both of which I had readily on hand... It took days for it to work properly in soil again and I only inserted it about two inches into my hydroponics water... You need the appropriate meter for liquid pH measurement, not a soil meter...

[Pikey]

Perhaps they've improved since then. Mine works fine in liquid and has no such warning on the accompanying literature.

[sparky marky]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B01C5O ... UTF8&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

£12 for this one.

[Swedish Pride]

Just drained the last of the demi, it's stunning at this point.
Unfortunately it's not mine to keep, I promised to make a mate some makers, still have not sent him his bottle yet so this will have to be his.

Will have to have an other go at it soon and hide it away for another 7 years

[Bradster68]

Just drained the last of the demi, it's stunning at this point.
Unfortunately it's not mine to keep, I promised to make a mate some makers, still have not sent him his bottle yet so this will have to be his.

Will have to have an other go at it soon and hide it away for another 7 years

That's good to hear. I got about 5 gallons of wheated makers aging on oak now. Only 2 months old, hopefully it turns out as well

[Wildcats]

I bet it'll be a hell of a whiskey Brad.

[Bradster68]

I bet it'll be a hell of a whiskey Brad.