Ma's Old Genebra

Grain bills and instruction for all manner of alcoholic beverages.

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Ma Flodder
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Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

I wanted to make an oude genever / korenwijn for some time but couldn't find any decent recipes. This drink has been made for hundreds of years in Belgium and the Netherlands, nowadays 99% of products on the market are made from malt wine bought from the firm Filliers in Belgium, and high strength ethanol bought from Germany or Russia. This is neither "authentic" nor "possible" for us home distillers so I decided to make my own recipe where we make our own malt wine and substitute sugar for the industrial ethanol.

Ingredients / 100 liter (26.4 lbm) of mash:

Malted barley 15kg (33 lbm)
Malted rye 10kg (22 lbm)
Malted wheat 6kg (13 lbm)
Juniper berries 1kg (2.2 lbm)
Coriander (seeds) 500gr (1.1 lbm)
Liquorice sweet root (chopped) 50gr (.1 lbm)
Invert sugar from 8kg (17.6 lbm) sugar

Step1: Mashing

-Mash the grains in 75 liters (19.8 US gallon) of water at 65°C (149F)
-Rest at 62°C (144F) for 80 minutes
-Rest at 72°C (162F) for 15 minutes
-Lautering
-Add invert sugar
-Boil for 15 minutes

-No filtration

Step 2: Cooling 23 - 24°C (73F)

Step 3: Ferment on the grain 28 – 30°C (83-86F) 5 days

Step 4: Filtration

Step 5: Distillation in potstill: striprun until 18% ABV (36 proof)

Step 6: Dilute to 35% ABV (70 proof), macerate spices for 24 hours

Step 7: Distillation in potstill: spirit run with spices in the boiler; make cuts

Step 8: Dilute to 62% ABV (124 proof)

Step 9: Age for 1 up to 15 years on new oak barrels (or speed age)

Step 10: Dilute to 42% ABV (84 proof)

All comments are welcome!
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Odin
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Odin »

Ah, nice. Korenwijn! I'd try to skip the sugar if you want to mash the grains. Goal abv 7.5 to 8%. No higher. Malted barley, yes, but maybe wheat (mooth) or rye (spicy). 30:70 on malt vs rye or wheat.

I'd also mash at 60 and 63 C. Bit lower than you propose to get more sugars converted into fermentable ones.

Regards, Odin. :thumbup:
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

Hello Odin,

yes you're right, 8kg sugar gives 4.7% ABV of it's own so that's too much. I forgot to add that with this much rye an extra rest at 40 degrees C is needed if you use a beer brewing machine with a pump or it will gum up completely. Has happened to me on a brand new pump :shh:

I use a 25L (6.6 US gallon) beer brewing machine and a boiler of the same size so this is a lot of hard work for me to make, 4 brewing sessions, 4 strip runs and 1 spirit run. I'll collect some more comments before I'll update the recipe above - including remarks on the mashing temperatures and grainbill.

Now it's time for a cigar, and make a few more fermentation vessels. :wink:
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Odin »

If you want to do the old ways, also incorporate sour mashing in the procedure, Ma!

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Kareltje »

Good start!
I have a chickenfeedferment at the moment. Might turn a bit of it to genever.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

Update to the grain bill:

Malted barley 10kg (22 lbm)
Malted rye 10kg (22 lbm)
Malted wheat 11kg (24 lbm)
sugar 2kg = 4.5 lbm

So less barley, more wheat, keep rye the same to keep my brewing machine happy, only a bit of sugar which is added before the boiling phase, after mashing. I'm going for a modern version so no sour mashing. Optional mashing step: half an hour at 40 degrees with just the rye to prevent gumming, before going to the next step where barley and wheat is added and the normal mashing begins.

Question for Odin: you suggest mashing at 60 and 63 degrees C (140 and 145.5F) while I mash for a whopping 80 minutes at 62C (143.5F) degrees. Is that going to make a big difference? I think I've read half of the Internet but can't find any decent looking advise, other than mashing at a lower temperature compared to what beer brewers do - which is 65C if I'm not mistaken, and I already do that.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Odin »

Beer brewers want some of the sugars to be unfermentable to create some sweetness in the beer. Dextrins. Since sweetness does not translate while distilling, and since dextrins just give you lower total alcohol yield, in general, distillers mash at lower temperatures.

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

Hello Odin,

yes I knew that - that's why I use 62 degrees instead of 65 or so. But do you think splitting my 80 minutes at 62 degrees up into X minutes at 60 degrees and Y at 63 would matter? If so how many minutes for X and Y?
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

After having done a bit more research rye seems to benefit from mashing between 50 and 61C, barley 60-62C and wheat 52-66C; β-amylase most productive between 60 and 65C. Source: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I will therefor split the current mashing step of 80 minutes at 62C into 40 minutes at 60C and 40 minutes at 62C to get more benefit from the rye.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by der wo »

You could get very good numbers, if you would mash with two waters. Because:

1. The liquid remaining in the malt after the second lautering is very unsweet.
2. You can use two different temperatures. The first mash very cold (water 60°C, with grain ca 55°C). This will flush many active enzymes into your fermenter. Second water very hot (75-90°C). This will solve all the starch, the alpha amylase will break it down incomplete to dextrines but fast. And the enzymes of the first water will convert the dextrines complete while cooling down and while the fermentation.

This is similar to how the Scots mash their whisky.
Last edited by der wo on Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by der wo »

Ma Flodder wrote: .
.
-Lautering
.
.
Step 3: Ferment on the grain 28 – 30°C (83-86F) 5 days
.
.
Hm :problem: Lautering AND on the grain?
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

@der wo: I meant sparging, not lautering :lol:

But maybe I should forgot about the "on the grain" bit, I'm open to advise.
Do remember that I use a brewing machine, lautering is easy.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by der wo »

So you sparge without lautering?
Or you sparge and then you pour the grains back and ferment on the grain?
Do we have different definitions about the terms lautering, sparging and on the grain?
For me lautering is to filter out the grains and particles.
Sparging is an optional step at the end of lautering. To wash out the spent grain.
On the grain is fermenting without lautering.

You can ferment on or off the grain. Malt whisky is normally off the grain, Bourbon on the grain. The process of mashing will be different.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

I get it, difficult to discuss in a foreign language. I think I'll do the lautering with sparging, so off the grain it is. That's what I also do with my Scotch-style single malt whisky.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

An updated recipe, unfortunately (or not) I can't edit the original at the start of this thread.

Ingredients / 100 liter (26.4 lbm) of mash:

Malted barley 10kg (22 lbm)
Malted rye 10kg (22 lbm)
Malted wheat 11kg (24 lbm)
Juniper berries 1kg (2.2 lbm)
Coriander (seeds) 500gr (1.1 lbm)
Liquorice sweet root (chopped) 50gr (.1 lbm)
Invert sugar from 2kg (4.5 lbm) sugar

Step1: Mashing

optional step to prevent gumming:
-Mash only the rye in 75 liters (19.8 US gallon) of water at 40°C for 30 minutes

-Mash all the grains at 62°C (144F)
-Rest at 60°C (140F) for 40 minutes
-Rest at 62°C (144F) for 40 minutes
-Rest at 72°C (162F) for 15 minutes
-Lautering, sparging with 20L of water at 78°C (172F)
-Add invert sugar
-Boil for 15 minutes

Step 2: Cooling 23 - 24°C (73F)

Step 3: Ferment 28 – 30°C (83-86F) 5 days

Step 4: Filtration

Step 5: Distillation in potstill: striprun until 18% ABV (36 proof)

Step 6: Dilute to 35% ABV (70 proof), macerate spices for 24 hours

Step 7: Distillation in potstill: spirit run with spices in the boiler; make cuts

Step 8: Dilute to 62% ABV (124 proof)

Step 9: Age for 1 up to 15 years on new oak barrels (or speed age)

Step 10: Dilute to 42% ABV (84 proof)
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by der wo »

Ma Flodder wrote: -Mash all the grains at 62°C (144F)
-Rest at 60°C (140F) for 40 minutes
-Rest at 62°C (144F) for 40 minutes
-Rest at 72°C (162F) for 15 minutes
-Lautering, sparging with 20L of water at 78°C (172F)
-Add invert sugar
-Boil for 15 minutes
Will give you a beer, not a whiskey. Many unfermentables. It's a slightly modified beer mashing without hops and with added sugar.

Step 6: Dilute to 35% ABV (70 proof), macerate spices for 24 hours
Will dilute the flavor. If you want vodka, it's ok. But if you want whiskey, strip as long until the low wines abv has dropped to the desired strength.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

Hallo der wo,

what kind of mashing scheme do you propose? A few (Scotch) whisky recipes that I've used successfully are almost identical. Adding a part sugar/ethanol is very normal for genevers, and I know many home distillers in Scotland who add a bit of sugar to their whisky mash.

Step 6 (dilution) is of course only needed if it's stronger. I've received a lot of advise not to macerate genever spices above 40% ABV, I think even from Odin.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by der wo »

Because you refer to the braukaiser page: Look at the b-amylase activity graph:

After 40min 60°C 65% of the b-amylase is dead.
After 40min 62°C from the remaining 35% 80% is dead, so you have only 7% b-amylase left. But not all starches are solved, because the temp was too low.
Then with 15min 72°C perhaps you get all the starch solved, but all the b-amylase is dead, so you don't get it full converted...
The boiling finally kills the a-amylase too, so there is no hope, that anything could happen during cooling down and fermenting.

My advice is stop beer brewing and start whisky mashing.

For example (of course you can scale up) for 12l mash and 3kg malt, around 7-8% alcohol:
-Heat 7.5l water to 60°C. Shut the heat off and insulate the boiler. Add 3kg malt.
-Stir occasionally. Wait at least 1.5h. Then lauter in the fermenter.
-Second water: If you lautered 6l, now you need again 6l for total 12l (6+6=12). If you lautered 5l, now you need 7l. Heat it to 80°C, shut off, add the wet grains and wait (and stir occasionally) again at least 1.5h.
-Now lauter IN ANOTHER bucket. Then slowly mix the second water into the first. Slowly, that there are no hotspots. And the total temp must not get over 55°C.
-Wait and stir occ. until the temp has dropped to 30°C. A iodine test will give you a very bad result now perhaps. But the enzymes of the first water will finish the job the next days easily.
-Aerate and add yeast.
Ma Flodder wrote:Step 6 (dilution) is of course only needed if it's stronger. I've received a lot of advise not to macerate genever spices above 40% ABV, I think even from Odin.
For a more neutral taste dilute, for more aroma strip longer. Malt whisky normally is stripped from 6-8% mash to 20-25% low wines without dilution. The stripping run is finished not at 18% in the parrot, but perhaps 1 or 2% in the parrot.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

Thanks der wo! I think I need to read that several times, and figure out how to that with the equipment that I've got.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by der wo »

Yes. Sorry, I don't have experience with grainfather or similar machines. I use the pot of my still with an agitator and for lautering curtain cloth (BIAB cloth).
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

iodine test.JPG
Iodine test seems fine using my process - have to admit I use high temperature tolerant amylase during the cooking phase. Will try der wo's process when I find time :D
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by der wo »

The iodine doesn't tell you, if everything will get fermented.
After fermentation measure the FG. Then we can see how efficient the mashing was.

High temp amylase helps. But why during the cooking phase? It will give you a better iodine test but not much more fermentables. To use it while the beta-amylase is still alive would be much better.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

Hallo der wo,

just following the amylase's instructions - add during cooking phase for 30 minutes. I can add it earlier on the next batch. This -is- fun, learning a lot... :D
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by der wo »

And the instructions say, you should add the other enzyme (glucosidase) after the high temp alpha has liquified the starch. The other enzyme would have been more beneficial with your mashing protocol.
This is the general problem, the enzymes for making the sugars fermentable need lower temps than the enzymes for liquifying. So the best way would be to start with high temp and then cool down. Otherwise it's like trying to sculpture a statue by starting with the details. But starting hot works only with adding enzymes. Or with tricks like a two water method to safe enzymes for later (what I do for malt whisky) or to safe a part of the malted barley and add it to the mash after cooking (what I do for Bourbon).
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by Ma Flodder »

der wo wrote:And the instructions say, you should add the other enzyme (glucosidase) after the high temp alpha has liquified the starch.
Correct - but that's in my yeast. I'm using Alcotec α-Amylase Enzyme with Alcotec Single Strain Whisky Yeast which has glucoamylase.

EDIT: SG after mashing, before fermenting: 1.060; no sugar has been added this time.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by der wo »

Ma Flodder wrote:I'm using Alcotec α-Amylase Enzyme with Alcotec Single Strain Whisky Yeast which has glucoamylase.
You are working with all tricks. :D
Ma Flodder wrote:EDIT: SG after mashing, before fermenting: 1.060; no sugar has been added this time.
Sounds good. 8% is possible.
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by fdx »

Hi all
I realize this is a rather old thread, but hoping I could get some help :)

I tried this recipe, although I skipped the invert the
Sugar and instead used high fructose corn syrup to bring the gravity to 1.090.
From the grains alone I ended up with 1.060.

This is my first time doing grains done quite a few rums and Gins and played quite a bit with the corn fructose syrup. So not sure what to expect.
On the first day after pitching the yeast, the grains formed a pillow on top, which clogged the airlock and blew the top of both my fermentation tanks 50L each.
I estimate I lost 12 to 15 liters there. And a bunch of the grains. So lesson learned, fermenting on the grain requires a LOT of head on the fermentation tank.
So I split the content into 3 tanks. 50/50/40L.

No I’m finding really confusing this grain pillow on top. I thought the yeast would break down most of it.

It’s been a week and the gravity has not gone down much, it’s currently at 1.060.

I used EC1118 which is what I had in hand.

Every now and then I get my drill with a paint mixer into the tanks to get the grain pillow to break and stay down, but only for an hour or so.. after that it forma again. So I guess that’s what’s expected.
I’m a bit worried that it might start to rot.

Any advise?
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Re: Ma's Old Genebra

Post by still_stirrin »

fdx,

Have you checked the specific gravity since it’s been working? I suspect it is falling quite rapidly.

The grain cap will eventually sink as the fermentation completes. The grist (ground grains) are held buoyant by the rising CO2, so it’s not surprising that there is a cap. Breaking it apart is a good idea but you really don’t need to aggressively stir the wash with your paint stirrer.

Usually, grinding the grains finer will help to prevent the formation of the cap as the finer “meal” will remain more fluid allowing it to move and “breathe” better. So next time you ferment “on-the-grain”, grind the grains finer and see if that helps.

In conclusion, we’ve all had ferments that overwhelmed the airlock. It’s a mess. And you do lose a little of the mash in the process. But, it is a “lesson to learn”, so congratulations….you’re a little wiser today than yesterday.
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