Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

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ShineonCrazyDiamond
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Well, sometimes I only get a gallon. You see the difference, and how it doesn't mean anything from one distiller to the next. I am super aware of cuts, and so I wind up cutting very clean. You're already keeping twice what I normally get, at least anothet 25% more than my normal. An extra 5% for me isn't even nearing your end cut. But I'll let you know. If any bourbon can stand up to a "wide" tails cut, it's this one :thumbup:
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by OtisT »

Yes, this whiskey has lots of strong flavors and can tolerate more tails than most.

I’m really surprised some of your cuts are so small, only keeping about 25% of your potential alcohol. Even on my white cut spirits I keep about 45% of the potential alcohol, 55% on the top end for me. I know this is just a difference and not a problem. I just like comparing to see what others do. Talking about making cuts is one subject that just does not go well on-line. I’m waiting for internet 2.0, with smell and taste capabilities.

Keep doing you.

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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Internet 2.0 with smell and taste. Instead of IP address it’s called Mailing Address lol.

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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by tombombadil »

Beerswimmer wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:50 am
ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:43 am Wow. What size barrel? What did you think of it white? Great job!
5 gallons. It's delicious! A bakers chocolate flavor, with caramel and grains. Some sweetness too. I'm very excited to see what happens in the barrel!
I guess the pale chocolate worked out fine after all ha?
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by Beerswimmer »

tombombadil wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:11 am I guess the pale chocolate worked out fine after all ha?
Yeah, very chocolate-y! Using the backset in washes and the spirit runs probably helped a lot.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

It sounds like most of you are using pot stills? Anyone using a flute and making getting a "ready to barrel" in one run? If so, what are you seeing for alcohol % ? Or should I treat this like other whiskeys when making my cuts? I tend to follow the % and taste. If this one carries a difficult taste out of the still, wouldn't it be tough to cut based on taste?
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by OtisT »

IMALOSERSCUMBAG wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:06 pm It sounds like most of you are using pot stills? Anyone using a flute and making getting a "ready to barrel" in one run? If so, what are you seeing for alcohol % ? Or should I treat this like other whiskeys when making my cuts? I tend to follow the % and taste. If this one carries a difficult taste out of the still, wouldn't it be tough to cut based on taste?
It probably depends on what you taste for. This is just my process. I love many of the smells and tastes when doing cuts, but my cut point is about excluding bad tastes that I know to be heads and tails. I taste up and down and when the intensity of the bad taste is too much, that is my cut point. I trust the recipe to have put the good stuff in there, which is why a happy ferment is so important. Otis
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

OtisT wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:14 pm
It probably depends on what you taste for. This is just my process. I love many of the smells and tastes when doing cuts, but my cut point is about excluding bad tastes that I know to be heads and tails. I taste up and down and when the intensity of the bad taste is too much, that is my cut point. I trust the recipe to have put the good stuff in there, which is why a happy ferment is so important. Otis
Thanks Otis.

I've been running 20+/- gallons in my reflux for a while now. Whiskey, rum and sugar washes. I usually let things run for a bit to compress the heads and then throw the first quart into my fire starter jar. Then I taste a bit until I get a start of what I want. I keep that until I start getting a flavor that's a bit off. Sounds like I should be able to do that here as well. Trial and error and practice.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

I have my first ferment going. It's about 25 gallons. I have a few questions:
1 - I got a little rammy and put everything together all at once and didn't wait until 150 to add the barley malt. This is my first real mash. Did I mess things up?
2 - I have a 26 gallon boiler so I plan on charging. Any thoughts on how much head space this will require? I'm thinking on only 20-23 gallons to be safe.
3 - Running a CM column, I'm planing on not doing a stripping run. I've gotten good at running UJSSM and cutting that. Not sure what to look for in taste with this one. Anything I should be looking for on good/bad tastes?
4 - If I run 20 gallons, any thoughts on what I should be able to collect? I'm thinking a gallon or so to be safe.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by still_stirrin »

IMALOSERSCUMBAG wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:03 pm I have my first ferment going. It's about 25 gallons. I have a few questions:
1 - I got a little rammy and put everything together all at once and didn't wait until 150 to add the barley malt. This is my first real mash. Did I mess things up? Did you hold the mash temperature at 150*F until the starch was converted? The iodine check would indicate so. If not, you may not have as much fermentable material as you think
2 - I have a 26 gallon boiler so I plan on charging. Any thoughts on how much head space this will require? I'm thinking on only 20-23 gallons to be safe. With an all grain mash, that is very optimistic. You may see a puke into your column if the boiler is more than 75% full.
3 - Running a CM column, I'm planing on not doing a stripping run. I've gotten good at running UJSSM and cutting that. Not sure what to look for in taste with this one. Anything I should be looking for on good/bad tastes? Collect into at least 20 to 30 jars so you can make good cuts.
4 - If I run 20 gallons, any thoughts on what I should be able to collect? I'm thinking a gallon or so to be safe. Of course it depends on how much alcohol you made in the fermenter, ie - (OG-FG)x130.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

If you put the malt in at 180/190, then the mash is dead.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by zapata »

Yup, do an iodine test to verify, or just assume it's dead if you know you did that. The only recourse is to heat it back up and more malt or enzymes. I'd check the ph too, fairly good chance you've had some bugs munchin on it in the meantime that could have driven it a little low.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

zapata wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:43 am Yup, do an iodine test to verify, or just assume it's dead if you know you did that. The only recourse is to heat it back up and more malt or enzymes. I'd check the ph too, fairly good chance you've had some bugs munchin on it in the meantime that could have driven it a little low.
I have some SEBstar HTL. My alpha. I also have SEBamyl which I believe is also an alpha. I can re heat the 25 gallons. Based other reading I should be able to heat to 150 to add the enzyme. Which of the above is the best.?
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by zapata »

SEBstar HTL is an alpha-amylase, SEBamyl is a gluco-amylase.
If you used the HTL originally, it is a Heat Tolerant Liquid enzyme and so would not have been deactivated. So you just need to reheat the mash to temps and pH suitable for another dose of SEBamyl.

Or did you not use any enzymes originally other than malt? If not then you will need to reheat and use both enzymes or add more malt. I don't know if you can use both enzymes simultaneously, since I've always use the HTL first at high temps to thin the mash out. From memory they prefer slightly different pH, so I would probably do them sequentially. But you don't have to heat all the way back up to geletinization temps, just go to the SEBamyl temp, adjust to HTL pH and add it, stir for a while, then go to SEBamyl ph, add it and hold at temp for an hour or so.

Do an iodine test to be sure, and uh, respectfully, put a little more thought into what your doing. You can't just buy stuff, slap it together, screw it up, try to throw some other stuff in there that you don't know what it is, and expect good results. Well, one day you can, but clearly you aren't there yet. Have a plan before you step into the shed, and follow your plan.

Finally, I will add that many of us feel that while these enzymes certainly have utility, they yield up different results than natural enzymes in malt. They were after all designed and marketed to the fuel/GNS industries and as such are designed to maximize glucose. But many have found that whiskey, like beer, is best made from more complex sugars like maltose rather than glucose, perhaps somewhat yeast dependant, but there are MUCH easier ways to ferment simple sugars than all grain mashing. All grain mashing is a lot of trouble to get thin sugar-shine flavors, especially when you screw it up and have to do it twice. Personally I'd add more malt and save the high tech enzymes for pure corn whiskies which benefit the most from them, and have the least flavor to bother preserving anyway, or for all grain vodkas where the lack of depth won't be missed.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by tombombadil »

I'm finally getting the ingredients together for a chocolate bourbon:
50% corn meal
20% ground steel cut oats
15% 6 row barley malt
5% chocolate malt
5% opal 22
5% opal 44
weizen beer yeast

I guess I might end up with something like chocolate banana bread instead of chocolate sundae.

I'm going to try to distill on the grain (I've got a steam injection setup coming together shortly).
And if all goes well this will fill my first 5 gallon barrel.
I have a baby on the way so it'll likely be the last thing I make for a while. Wish me luck!
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by Beerswimmer »

Good luck!
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

It has been a while since I posted with my "issue". I figured I'd give an update. I was curious so I didn't change the mash that had the malt added at a very high temp. As expected my return sucked. Out of about 20 gallons I got about a quart or so of liker.

I have had two more runs since and have been much more diligent in the process. Both runs have netted me about 1.5-2.0 gallons of 140 proof. Seems a bit low so I am going to use a ph meter on my next mash to see if I'm missing something there. I am keeping deeper into the run but keeping that separate as I'm trying not to let the tails sneak in. Maybe I should keep going deeper? Normally I cut at taste but with this being so new, I'm not sure what I'm looking for yet. Better to keep separate for a while I suppose.

Anyway, I wanted to say thanks for the advise and suggestions.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

I run 40 gallons and keep between 1 and 1.75 gallons. Perspective is everything, ehh?

With that said, though. I'm trying to be more disciplined to cut wider, especially on tails. If my taste buds can agree on even 2 gallons final cut at 62% from 45 gallons mash, then I am ecstatic.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

Perspective is everything. I run my 20+ gallons and think, why so little? Then I do the math and figure 10% of 20 gallons, then realize I was likely conservative on cuts, it's all groovy.

Thanks for the confirmation.

My notes thus far from three runs. First run garbage, we've been though why. Second runs I throw out the first 500 ml as heads, actually I keep them for fire/grill starter. Those tend to run 85-90%. I keep down to about 65%. I have noticed after sitting in the jar a week or so, things to mellow some. I can see the progression of flavors slightly even now. My intention is to run until I get 5 gallons and then barrel it. Then open next Christmas. My son is very excited for next Christmas.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

I might have just finished filling a new 5 gallon Gibbs barrel of this last month for next winter. FIL favorite.

He'll just have to get used to rum this year.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

I have a couple gallons I didn't put in the boiler this time. My thought is to either put in the next run or turn into beer. I am not a beer maker but am, like any self respecting Wisconsinite, a beer drinker.

Any suggestions for tne next steps to turn my couple gallons into beer?.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by OldSmitty »

IMALOSERSCUMBAG wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:09 pm I have a couple gallons I didn't put in the boiler this time. My thought is to either put in the next run or turn into beer. I am not a beer maker but am, like any self respecting Wisconsinite, a beer drinker.

Any suggestions for tne next steps to turn my couple gallons into beer?.

TLDR; This all probably a bad idea. I would stick to stilling. But if you really want to try it, here's my best advice:



You're up against a few issues: grain bill differences from beer, yeast fermentation flavor differences (assuming you didn't use a beer ale yeast), bitterness to balance residual sugars, thin body (stilling is more simple sugar and less residual sugars, and carbonation. Everything that will touch your beer needs to be clean and sanitized. A lapse in sanitation could result in bottle bombs (not kidding). You may already have a potential bottle bomb issue depending on how clean and sanitized your initial processes were.

Before you get too far down the road, are you able to taste a sample to determine drinkability? There's no point in proceeding if it tastes bad. You'll want to be able to draw a sample with as little as possible oxygen. Oxygen is the mortal enemy of beer after fermentation has completed.

1) You need to make a hop tea. Since there are dark grains, I would try to mimic a English mild or brown ale and use fuggles. I normally do 1 oz per 5 gal when making beer. I'd go with about a quart of water and simmer for an hour. You also need to strain out any hop debris.
2) You need priming sugar. Based on the volume of beer, you'll add a certain amount of sugar to a smaller amount of water and boil it. Google priming sugar calculator. They'll ask for temp and I would go with whatever temp the beer is at. You'll add this to your bottling bucket.
3) Pour hop tea, and priming sugar solution into a bottling bucket. Rack (gently transfer via tubing) beer into a bucket allowing it to mix with hop tea and sugar. Gently stirring doesn't hurt.
4) Gently rack beer into each bottle leaving 1/2 to 1 inch of headspace. A bottling wand makes work a lot easier.
5) Leave at room temp for 2 weeks to carbonate.
6) Take 1 bottle, refrigerate for 24hrs, and test. If it's carbonated to your liking, I would refrigerate the rest.
7) Drink this beer within a short time of it being carbonated. The longer you let it sit, the more chance it would have to degrade or make bottle bombs.

GOOD LUCK if you try this!
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by Vintage »

I just ran my 2nd batch of SCB at Christmas using a flute. All my batches are tuned to 16 gallons water, 25 pounds cornmeal and 16 pounds flavoring grains. That generally produces an OG of 1.08. I usually squeeze 14 gallons into the keg boiler. Not much head space, but I'm only running 3 plates so I can see the boil up and react to it by turning down power to the element. I fought this batch though, needing to turn off the element for 5 minutes a couple times. I try to keep the run at 80-85 abv if possible. For the first (8) 8 oz jars (8 oz fores gets tossed first) I fill them half way and empty the parrot, which holds about 4 oz. That way I've reduced smearing as much as possible. I taste as I go with a pipette to meter the alky to water down to about 40 abv and make the cut on the fly based on taste and smell. Most all batches, SCB, HBB, etc., cut within a jar or two of each other. For the tails cut I rely a lot on smell, but I taste them too. I know tails are coming when the abv starts dropping. I'll reflux a couple times to compress a bit, and start dumping the parrot again to prevent smearing. I don't keep track of the quantity as closely on where the tails cut happens, but I'd imagine it's pretty close because I usually end up with about the same amount of product in the end. I pull just about 1.2 gallons of 85 abv after cuts, water it back to 60-65 abv and end up with about 1.75 gallons. I know that's a fairly wide keep, around 60% of the total alky available. I'm starting with a bit higher OG (I think), squeezing a bit more out with the flute, and probably doing a bit wider cuts because that's what my taste likes.

I haven't made the SCB on a pot and flute to compare, but I have with HBB and I couldn't really tell the difference and neither could my buddies. I have about 1/4 gallon of SCB left that's 16 months old and it's fantastic. I've honestly never tasted anything like it. It lacks finish, just sort of drops off, but I'd guess it just needs more time and perhaps to age in a barrel instead of glass and sticks. I have plenty of sipping stock now so it should be easier to keep my mitts off the 2nd batch.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by bluc »

Awesome thread i have been chatting with a mate on and off about a stout grain bill scotch/whiskey for years. I have the ingredients to make some of this choc sundae hopefully on weekend. Might kick me into gear for a Guiness scotch..
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by bluc »

Made my first batch of this. Tight cuts. For oak:
Settled on 15g/l at 60%abv.
85% alligator char virgin american oak.
5% smoked virgin american
5% raw virgin oak
5% med toast reclaimed french oak.
Lets see what a year does to this
2gal.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Good luck. Tight cuts might be regretful down the years. I know, I know. The real secret to good whiskey is like anything else. You have to learn the rules to break them.

A deep cut with a splash of heads will set a bourbon off right for a long nap. But this is a pack full flavor bourbon, so it ain't ever gonna be thin, anyway.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by bluc »

I am yet to make a spirit with deliberate heads or tails left in that I can enjoy... :thumbdown:
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Well, that's why this hobby never ends :clap:
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You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon.
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by bluc »

:thumbup: Yea so many tangents to explore
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Re: Sundae Chocolate Bourbon

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

Last winter (early Feb) I barreled 5 gallons. I had a few tastes as summer rolled on. Every time it seemed to get a little better. Thursday I took another taste, then another. It has come home. I don't know if I can wait another month. My initial plan was to bottle right before Christmas to give to my son and and have available for Christmas cocktails. Can one more month help? I think so, patience I must tell meself.

Saturday I ran my first run for next year. I figure I can get a few gallons ready so when I bottle I can refill the barrel.
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