Kasha Whiskey

Grain bills and instruction for all manner of alcoholic beverages.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Kasha Whiskey

Postby Odin » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:56 am

My thoughts have been wondering towards buckwheat for quite a few times over the last years, but I never really gave it a try. That's about to change! I just found a good source to Kasha. Kasha is roasted buckwheat. I like that "roasted" addition, because I expect it to add nutty, rooty flavors, especially at the back of the taste pallet. In short: I am hooked on giving this a try. If any of you want to follow this thread, chime in, or do parallel experiments, please be my guests. The party is open to all with good intend and a merry mindset!

Here's the approach I'll do:
- Buy 5 kilo's of Kasha;
- Put it in warm water and boil it for 15 minutes;
- Put it in a 30 liter fermentation bucket;
- Add cold water to bring total temperature wise to around 85C;
- Add high temp enzymes and stir and let it sit for 45 minutes;
- Add more cold water to bring temp to 65C;
- Add low temp enzymes and stir and let it sit for another 45 minutes;
- Add more cold water to bring total content to 25 liters;
- Given the 64 to 65% of total starch in the Kasha, I hope to convert that;
- Maybe I need to grind it, not sure. Maybe the roasting and boiling is enough to open things up enough for extraction and conversion;
- The recipe can also be done as a sugar head. Don't use enzymes, just dissolve 3.5 kilo's of sugar and then top up with cold water to 25 liters total content;
- In both cases: boil 5 grams of yeast into a yeast nutrient and add that to the mix;
- Now sprinkle 15 grams of dried baker's yeast on top and let the fermentation begin!

Especially on the sugar heads, I expect pH to crash easily, so pH monitoring is probably important. I'd go for pH 4.0 to pH 4.5. I'll also pitch the yeast at around 30C to create some extra fruity notes to balance out nicely (or that is the goal) with the more rooty, nutty flavors I expect to come over from the roasting process.

Fermentation should take a week, no longer. The goal is to achieve a 7.5 to 8% result. After that a quick strip run and then a finishing run. Maybe some backset from generation one to start a backset/sourmash cycle. The sourness of the backset may help esterification on next generations. And the taste transfer will definately boost taste as well. If you use backset on follow-up generations, no more yeast starter will be needed. You may need to pre-adapt those second, third, etc. generations with bicarb to prevent further pH crashes.

All right. Let the fun times begin. I'll order the Kasha today. I expect to start mashing later this week. I'll let the fermentation run its course next week, when I am away anyhow. Of to Utah to give another distillation workshop. Distillation will take place after I come back.

Regards, Odin.
Attachments
SAM_1925-768x512.jpg
Kasha before cooking.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby fizzix » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:53 am

You haven't steered me wrong yet Odin. I see buckwheat at my grain shop and will have to call them to see if it's roasted. (Their website doesn't show Kasha.)
Between you, ShineonCrazyDiamond, and others, I'm going to be playing catch up for quite a while as my To-Do list is gaining length.
This topic is Bookmarked.
..Making the devil's water since 2017... Never bash another distiller. Ever.
"And when you lose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown." -Dogs, Pink Floyd
User avatar
fizzix
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:08 pm

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Kareltje » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:23 am

Do you by any chance know if normal buckwheat can be sprouted? I would like to make a pure buckwheat all grain.

And I wonder if addition of some buckwheat honey makes it even better. It is almost black and has a very peculiar taste, a bit like the smell of very good matured cow's or horse's manure.
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
 
Posts: 1398
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Odin » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:49 am

If they don't have the roasted version, Fizz, you can roast it yourself. Buy buckwheat and put it for one hour in the oven at 160C. Or better yet: put it under water and put it in the oven for like 13 hours, Maillardizing it.

Kareltje ... the aged manure ... smells like home to me. ;)

Not sure if it can be made to germinate. it's a seed rather than a grain.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby HDNB » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:12 am

Kareltje wrote:Do you by any chance know if normal buckwheat can be sprouted? I would like to make a pure buckwheat all grain.

And I wonder if addition of some buckwheat honey makes it even better. It is almost black and has a very peculiar taste, a bit like the smell of very good matured cow's or horse's manure.


the roasted will not grow of course. doubt you'll get whole seed from a grocer, likely de-husked and cleaned. but on-line! http://www.johnnyseeds.com/farm-seed/gr ... -966G.html

that's for common buckwheat, i unnerstand there are some more exotic varieties too.

where is that ester thread? buckwheat is high in lysine, wonder what the ester is like? mebbe a good adjunct grain for other recipes.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
 
Posts: 5267
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby StillerBoy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:29 am

Darek Bell at Corsair does a buckwheat bourbon.. and states that buckwheat can be malted..

quote from his book.. " this bourbon adds buckwheat to the mix. Buckwheat has been used in several craft beers and Japanese shochu. It adds a nutty flavor that is quite distinctive and somewhat similar to pistachios. This flavor can be pushed by toasting the buckwheat first. Buckwheat can be malted easily, but has significantlly lower enzyme for starch conversion than barley, and usually less than a third."

His grain bill is 55/25/20, corn/buckwheat/malt..

Mars
StillerBoy
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby aircarbonarc » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:20 pm

Now you have me curious also, I might be looking for some Kasha myself and working that into a grain bill in the near future. The flavor description sounds like something with alot of potential to add some complexity to a lovely whiskey.
Rum!
aircarbonarc
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:11 pm

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Odin » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:33 pm

My feeling as well. Going all kasha to see where it takes us. Diving in to multiple grains in the grain bill and the role buckwheat and kasha may play there? Interesting as well!

Update: Kasha is ordered. Should be in tomorrow or the day after!

Regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Odin » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:45 pm

For EU members: this is the kasha I ordered:

https://www.pit-pit.com/kasha.html

Regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby fizzix » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 pm

Odin wrote:If they don't have the roasted version, Fizz, you can roast it yourself. Buy buckwheat and put it for one hour in the oven at 160C. Or better yet: put it under water and put it in the oven for like 13 hours, Maillardizing it.
Odin.

Even I can work an oven! It's not like that washy machine thing the wife keeps me from. You taught me 2 things today Odin: Maillardizing and roasting. Grateful for your lessons!!
..Making the devil's water since 2017... Never bash another distiller. Ever.
"And when you lose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown." -Dogs, Pink Floyd
User avatar
fizzix
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:08 pm

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Odin » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:36 pm

I won't teach you washing ;).

Dive into Maillard please. There should be a thread or two I started on this. It is an amazing chemical thing every distiller should explore and preferably put to its good use. It adds up to 25% of taste to (especially) tails oriented drinks.

Important addition: if you go MR: stay at around 95C. Below the boiling point of water.

Roasting is probably great too, because, if nothing else, it brought the ingredients through at least two MR zones: one while heating up, the other when cooling down.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby RedwoodHillBilly » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:42 pm

The Maillard reaction is a very good thing, especially for meat :D

If it were me, I would grind the grain to a flour to increase the efficiency. I found that moving from a brewers crush to a flour grind increased my brewhouse efficiency from the upper 70% range (i.e 77% or so) to the low 90% range (i.e 93% or so). But to each their own (and it depends on equipment available).
John Barleycorn must die.
"and little Sir John in the nut brown bowl proved the strongest man at last.
The huntsman he can't hunt the fox, nor so loudly to blow his horn
and the tinker he can't mend kettle nor pots without a little barleycorn."
User avatar
RedwoodHillBilly
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 910
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:30 pm

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Odin » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:51 pm

Thanks for sharing! Yeah grinding may be a good idea. But as stated before ... taking the "easy" route of just boiling as a starting point. A less than perfect conversion results in less feremntable sugars. Lower yield, but - in combination with a direct fired still - more Maillardization

Odin.

PS: I'll be chiming back in when the kasha arrives!
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby RedwoodHillBilly » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:10 pm

Odin wrote:Thanks for sharing! Yeah grinding may be a good idea. But as stated before ... taking the "easy" route of just boiling as a starting point. A less than perfect conversion results in less feremntable sugars. Lower yield, but - in combination with a direct fired still - more Maillardization

Odin.

PS: I'll be chiming back in when the kasha arrives!


True, if you have more unfermentables you will see more results from caramelizing the sugars and proteins :) (Maillard reaction). Whether this is a good thing or not, you will have to tell me after your experiments.
John Barleycorn must die.
"and little Sir John in the nut brown bowl proved the strongest man at last.
The huntsman he can't hunt the fox, nor so loudly to blow his horn
and the tinker he can't mend kettle nor pots without a little barleycorn."
User avatar
RedwoodHillBilly
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 910
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:30 pm

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Kareltje » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:17 pm

Odin wrote:Kareltje ... the aged manure ... smells like home to me. ;)
Yes! :thumbup:

Not sure if it can be made to germinate. it's a seed rather than a grain.

Odin.

HDNB wrote:
Kareltje wrote:Do you by any chance know if normal buckwheat can be sprouted? I would like to make a pure buckwheat all grain.

And I wonder if addition of some buckwheat honey makes it even better. It is almost black and has a very peculiar taste, a bit like the smell of very good matured cow's or horse's manure.


the roasted will not grow of course. doubt you'll get whole seed from a grocer, likely de-husked and cleaned. but on-line! http://www.johnnyseeds.com/farm-seed/gr ... -966G.html

that's for common buckwheat, i unnerstand there are some more exotic varieties too.

where is that ester thread? buckwheat is high in lysine, wonder what the ester is like? mebbe a good adjunct grain for other recipes.

The roasted version will not germinate anymore, of course.
I doubt indeed if the seed that you buy in a organic food store will germinate and I do not want to buy 1 kg to try.
But HDNB: thanks! You made me think of other sources!
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
 
Posts: 1398
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Odin » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:41 am

Interesting developments! So I bought a new pot. 5 gallons. Expecting to boil the Kasha in there. But with no success! This stuff soaks up water like a camel after a desert race! Almost burned the contents. Could take it off the fire right in time. Trying to move it around took so much force it bended my spoon. Consequence? Going to make a sugar hear out of it. Here are some pics ...

Regards, Odin.
Attachments
IMG_5069.JPG
IMG_5070.JPG
IMG_5071.JPG
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Odin » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:06 am

Just put it in the bigger fermenter, added 4 kilo's of sugar, and topped off at a bit over 30 liters. Baker's yeast (boiled) as nutrient. Baker's yeast (22 grams) sprinkled on top.

The nutty smells, when boiling the Kasha, are amazing!

Regards, Odin.
Attachments
IMG_5073.JPG
IMG_5074.JPG
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Odin » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:08 am

First lesson ... don't try to boil 5 kilo's of Kasha with 10 liters of water. Even though that's what you read online, it won't work. Gets to be a porridge in seconds. Better approach (for the next cycle): 2 kilo's of Kasha with 8 to 9 liters of water.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby aircarbonarc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:54 am

Odin wrote:First lesson ... don't try to boil 5 kilo's of Kasha with 10 liters of water. Even though that's what you read online, it won't work. Gets to be a porridge in seconds. Better approach (for the next cycle): 2 kilo's of Kasha with 8 to 9 liters of water.

Odin.



Would adding enzymes to the porridge and using a mixer on a drill help with the thick porridgeness?
Rum!
aircarbonarc
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:11 pm

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Odin » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:59 am

I don't think so. I think this sttuff, maybe especially because it got roasted, just soaks up tremendous amounts of water.

Regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby aircarbonarc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:31 pm

Odin wrote:I don't think so. I think this sttuff, maybe especially because it got roasted, just soaks up tremendous amounts of water.

Regards, Odin.


Ok I may try it as 10% of my grain bill.
Rum!
aircarbonarc
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:11 pm

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Odin » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:01 am

Fermentation is well under way. Here is a picture.

Regards, Odin.
Attachments
IMG_5123.JPG
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby Wino2Distill » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:01 pm

I visited a pure buckwheat whiskey distillery in Brittany two years ago (Distillerie des Menhirs). I believe they claim to have invented it. They call buckwheat black wheat (blé noir) overthere. Well made but not my cup of tea. I don't think that it was roasted.
Starting out with an Essential Pro Series II - 8 Gal Kettle
User avatar
Wino2Distill
Novice
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:43 am

Re: Kasha Whiskey

Postby fizzix » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:40 am

Odin (or anyone)~
I'm crunching numbers on your Kasha recipe and maybe you can help.
Roasted buckwheat has a PPG of 30. ----> buckwheat PPG = 30
25 liters = 6.58 gallons. ----> 6.58 gallons
7.5% would equal a start gravity of 1.058 (assuming a finish of 1.000). ----> points = 58

Applying PPG formula: [ (gallons x points) / buckwheat PPG = pounds of grain required ] should reveal how many pounds of roasted buckwheat is required.
(6.58 x 58) / 30 = 12.7 lbs. required (or 5.76 kg.)

Am I missing something in my calculation? Or just nit-picking a 0.76 kg difference?
(I was thinking maybe this could finish lower than 1.000, too.)

(You're one of my heroes here. This not a criticism!)
..Making the devil's water since 2017... Never bash another distiller. Ever.
"And when you lose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown." -Dogs, Pink Floyd
User avatar
fizzix
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:08 pm


Return to Recipe Development



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: linkdex [bot] and 10 guests