Corn and Rye bourbon method

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Corn and Rye bourbon method

Postby Midwest » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:42 pm

I have been running UJSSM now for 9 generations and feel comfortable in running the still and still learning on making good cuts. I would like to take the next step into all grain. I have been looking at Jimbo's easy ½ barrel and intend to try that initially. That being said, I have been doing extensive reading and want to put together a mash bill that incorporates 20% Rye. I'm laying out my procedure step by step and would like for anyone that could, look it over and help me tweak it, shoot holes in it and make corrections. Thanks in advance.

Ingredients
32lb corn, Dent corn milled to coarse meal with Corona mill
8lb malted Rye
18 gallons water
4 gallons backset (or combo of water/backset to reach proper Ph)
8ml SEBamyl GL
10.5ml SEBstar HTL

Fill my spare Keggle electric boiler with 18 gallons of water.
Bring the temperature of the water to 150 degrees and add it to the fermenter.
Stir in the 32Lbs of corn
Adjust the Ph to 6-6.5 if necessary
Add 10.5ml of SEBstar HTL (.36ml x 32lb corn)
Raise the temperature of the mash to 190 with steam injector. Hold temperature at 190 degrees for 90 minutes. Stirring frequently.
After 90 minutes add backset and/or water to adjust the Ph of the mash down to 5 increasing total volume to 22 gallons.
Cool mash to 145 degrees
Add malted Rye
Add 8ml SEBaml GL ( .36*20lb. The additional 20lb grain will get enzymes from Rye)
Cover and insulate for 80 minutes, or until Iodine test shows clear, stiring occasionally
Reduce temperature to 70-85 degrees depending on yeast.
Pitch hydrated yeast cover and begin ferment.

I'm looking to eventually make a bourbon with a flavor profile similar to a Four Roses single barrel. I know they use a little more Rye in that specific grain bill but this is going to be my first rye attempt and wanted to keep it simple. I also notice that some distillers grain bills, When I do the Diastatic math it doesn't add up. Is it a common practice in commercial distilling to supplement there malted grains with liquid enzymes? That is the only way I can make some posted grain bills work.

Another question. I know that Jimbo ½ barrel method will bring his water to 190 and then add into a fermenter and mix in the corn. Is that method of conversion going to yield close to a same conversion as the above mentioned method. It sure is simpler. Also if doing it the Jimbo ½ barrel method, would it be additionally beneficial to also use some HTL and Gluco enzymes to help things along?

Thanks.
Last edited by Midwest on Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Corn and Rye bourbon method

Postby seamusm53 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:27 pm

I know some 'whiskey' designations are forbidden to add anything but water, grain, and yeast. Some are allowed to 'adulterate' the process with flavorings, etc.. I don't know if any use added enzymes other than malt. The malted rye should be at least coarsely cracked or ground to allow maximum extraction of both the amylase and the starch. The 80 minutes may or may not be long enough to convert all of the corn and rye starches. I'd recommend a starch test - if still 'blue' just hold it longer at 145. Since you aren't trying to make a commercial product it can't hurt to add other anzymes for starch conversion as long as you do it at the proper temp for that particular enzyme.
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Re: Corn and Rye bourbon method

Postby Midwest » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:11 pm

As far as I can tell,from my limited research, the liquid enzymes are not imparting any flavor into the product. I can’t see any advantage to using liquid over a distillers malt or adjusting the mash bill or incorporate a barley malt. Other than from a purist point of view. It’s my understanding barley malt doesn’t impart any flavor either. I may be wrong and if I am please correct me so I will have it right.
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Re: Corn and Rye bourbon method

Postby StillerBoy » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:20 pm

Midwest wrote:Another question. I know that Jimbo ½ barrel method will bring his water to 190 and then add into a fermenter and mix in the corn. Is that method of conversion going to yield close to a same conversion as the above mentioned method. It sure is simpler. Also if doing it the Jimbo ½ barrel method, would it be additionally beneficial to also use some HTL and Gluco enzymes to help things along?

Your grains bill is a little short of the 2 lbs / gal, it will still give you flavour.. I add by milled grains to the pot, which had been warned up to 80 - 85*F, I heat my required water to boiling roll, then add it to the grains, stir them will with an paint stirrer, which will give me a 185 -190*F temp, which I let sit for 90 min, stirring every half hour, then adjust Ph to 5.8, add HTL( at 5.8 once the stir is finish, the ph will be 5.9 - 6, the ideal ph recommend) then stir every hr until the temp reaches 150*F, adjust ph to 4.8, and by the time the ph adjustment it done, the temp will be around 140*F, I add the GL.. and my conversion are always in the 1.065+ range..

You may want to check out these link, as it a combination of these two that I use..
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=49869
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65703

Mars
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Re: Corn and Rye bourbon method

Postby BayouShine » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:26 pm

Midwest wrote:I can’t see any advantage to using liquid over a distillers malt or adjusting the mash bill or incorporate a barley malt.

Mash this gain bill with and without liquid enzymes and get back to us. You'll quickly see the huge advantage to using the HT liquid enzymes.
Midwest wrote:It’s my understanding barley malt doesn’t impart any flavor either.

Nope. Barley has a distinct flavor, just like every other grain variety.
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Re: Corn and Rye bourbon method

Postby Midwest » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:43 pm

What my sentence should have read was I don’t see the advantage of the distillers or barley malt OVER the HTL. I got it backwards. I think the liquid enzymes seem the way to go.

On a grain bill when there using 5% barley malt does it add a significant flavor profile? I could still use it for flavor and still use enzymes
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Re: Corn and Rye bourbon method

Postby StillerBoy » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:10 pm

Midwest wrote:On a grain bill when there using 5% barley malt does it add a significant flavor profile? I could still use it for flavor and still use enzymes

I've done the mashing both ways, and I didn't see enough of a different in flavor to mash the malt at a lower temp by itself.. now I mash all the grains at the same time and temp.. I just mash to meet the ph in the liquid enzymes way..
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Re: Corn and Rye bourbon method

Postby BayouShine » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:25 pm

Midwest wrote:On a grain bill when there using 5% barley malt does it add a significant flavor profile? I could still use it for flavor and still use enzymes

With that low percentage, I'd say most people wouldn't even notice a difference in flavor. On the other hand, 5% is not nearly enough DP to convert the rest of the grain bill so you'll have to contend with that.

You can absolutely use it for flavor and still use enzymes to help with starch conversion. The liquid enzymes will make your mashing much more efficient, not taste different.
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Re: Corn and Rye bourbon method

Postby Cu29er » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:24 pm

.

You need to cook the corn at a much higher temperature.
Water to rolling boil 200F+
Add corn while stirring and don't let temp drop below 180F (slow down speed of adding corn)
Keep stirring and try to get temp up to 190-200F but don't let it scorch

insulated wrap for as many hours as you can and when temp hits 150F mix your fine ground barley malt
Stir a few times every hour until you hit 120F
Let cool or add cold water to get down to yeast pitching temp
Let 'er rip.

Seems best performance is 2.4 to 2.6 lbs/gallon, however you can go 3 lbs/gallon and get more output but less efficient.

If using all barley instead of corn then do the working high temps around 165F+
.
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