High Ester Rum

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SaltyStaves
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by SaltyStaves »

If it was fruity, as opposed to creamy, then it may be what you are after.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

My final strip is complete. I collected 12 liters of low wines this run, for a combined total of 32 liters of low wines.

The boiler was much more full this run, maybe 13+ gallons. I put the 2 TBSP of butter in at the beginning of the run and the entire run was clear with no foaming. :-)

It will take a few days to clean up the mess I have made before I can think about doing the spirit run. I'll be back soon. Otis
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

SaltyStaves wrote:If it was fruity, as opposed to creamy, then it may be what you are after.
It was very fruity, but I don't think the fruit smell came from the infection. I have two sets of dunder bi-products. One was infected dunder, the other is fresh dunder that was mixed with feints before any infections formed and left to age. At 36% ABV, there are no infections in the latter. They both came to smell of juicy-fruit over time, so infection can't be the cause of that juicy-fruit smell.

I am curious about the two very dominant smells I have noted so far: Juicy-Fruit in the aged dunder and ripe banana in my low wines. I am wondering if the precursor to banana is the juicy-fruit, or if it came from a totally different source? Because the banana only appeared after distillation, could this be Fisher esterification taking place?

I'm looking forward to my spirit run, and more fun with esters. Otis
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by SaltyStaves »

Any banana aroma I have had in my wash or low wines, has never made it through the spirit run (unfortunately).
My latest batch ended up as banana vinegar, so I have some of that put aside (as dunder) for testing.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Stargazer14 »

Be enjoying your progress, I just wanted to throw in my experience with your 'stalled' ferment -
I drink many fine commercial rums (El Dorado 12yr and Dos Maderos are profiles I love) and it is a fact one can make even better drink at home.
Making a lot of rum, I strive for high flavors, usually do about four to five - 5gal buckets, using 1 gal molasses plus a few lbs of raw sugar per 5gal.
that yields me about 5ltr of finished drink for the barrel after 4 strip and a final spirit run.

I might add just a little DAP and sprinkle of epson if I remember but found the molasses usually has plenty of nutrients. Also use old dunders in ferment and spirit run.

My reason for writing is this - I have found my ferment goes good for about 2 to 3 days, then slows down, but I am in no hurry and wait up to 2 or 3 weeks for it to finish on its own.
I keep reading how many people think their ferment has to finish in 3 or 4 days and if it doesn't, something must be wrong!
My experience of long slow ferments has been very rewarding and I encourage others to maybe hold off on dumping in more food and yeast should it slow down,
just make sure the ph is not seriously low and let the soup work itself out. Wonderful things come from it!
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Re: High Ester Rum

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SaltyStaves wrote:Any banana aroma I have had in my wash or low wines, has never made it through the spirit run (unfortunately).
My latest batch ended up as banana vinegar, so I have some of that put aside (as dunder) for testing.
Damn, I was worried about loosing that smell in the spirit run. It is so nice right now. If I also lose it in this batch, it will make a good case for a single run Rum next time. :-). Either that, or possibly save a few of the stripping hearts jars from the first run and spike the final product with these set asides? Hmmmm. Otis.
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Re: High Ester Rum

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Stargazer14 wrote:Be enjoying your progress, I just wanted to throw in my experience with your 'stalled' ferment -
I drink many fine commercial rums (El Dorado 12yr and Dos Maderos are profiles I love) and it is a fact one can make even better drink at home.
Making a lot of rum, I strive for high flavors, usually do about four to five - 5gal buckets, using 1 gal molasses plus a few lbs of raw sugar per 5gal.
that yields me about 5ltr of finished drink for the barrel after 4 strip and a final spirit run.

I might add just a little DAP and sprinkle of epson if I remember but found the molasses usually has plenty of nutrients. Also use old dunders in ferment and spirit run.

My reason for writing is this - I have found my ferment goes good for about 2 to 3 days, then slows down, but I am in no hurry and wait up to 2 or 3 weeks for it to finish on its own.
I keep reading how many people think their ferment has to finish in 3 or 4 days and if it doesn't, something must be wrong!
My experience of long slow ferments has been very rewarding and I encourage others to maybe hold off on dumping in more food and yeast should it slow down,
just make sure the ph is not seriously low and let the soup work itself out. Wonderful things come from it!
Thanks Stargazer. That ferment wisdom all makes sense. I did add epsom salt, but will add DAP up front next time just to be safe.

After 4 months of not stillin, I was in a bit of a hurry. Next Rum I make I will repeat this recipe if I plan to let the ferment run it’s full course. This is probably better for ester production anyway, giving acids and alcohols more time to do their thing. That said, I seemed to get some good smells from this fast ferment anyway. If I intend to do a fast ferment again next time, I may also try reducing the white sugar by half.

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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Stargazer14 wrote: I was worried about loosing that smell in the spirit run. It is so nice right now.
Dont be disappointed by one change in smell, over the next 12months or longer your rum will change again and again as it oaks and ages.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by zapata »

Ethyl butyrate and isoamyl acetate are 2 classic "juicy fruit" esters. Isoamyl acetate is also more often described as banana, probably depending on concentration or other contributing flavors present.
This website will actually let you search for chemicals that smell or taste like juicy fruit (or whatever really :)
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/odo ... fruit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Yummyrum »

Might have mentioned a few posts back about the niceness in those first few jars .... I love walking into the distilling area and smelling that stuff ... I leave the fores and early hearts jars there ... I like it stinking out my space .

But its not going into my mix .
Like Salt bush said ... give it a few months after six to nine and the Rum will develope its own special Rummyness
The Bananas is a tease . :econfused:
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

Help me, I’m torn. I have Sulfuric Acid.

Since reading the “creating esters with pure acids” thread I have wanted to know what sulfuric acid would do to a spirit wash with some backset in it. Note sure I want to bet the farm on it, so am contemplating splitting low wines into two runs, one with and one w/o sulfuric acid. Anyone want to talk me out of this before I potentially ruin some good rum?

I did a small test last night. 100 ml of backset/feints mixed with .3ml of sulfuric acid. That is maybe 3x what der wo recommended as a starting point for a ratio. I heated both to about 140 F to help the reaction. I noticed a difference in smell, but I could not put a name to it. Both still smelled fruity and like backset (nice). After about 10minutes the mix with Acid began to lighten in color, almost cloudy. A short time later I noticed a sediment was forming on the bottom of the jar with acid. The cloudiness was from small white fiberous strands that formed and began to settle in the acid jar. 12 hours later no further change. Still, both smell good. Still a slight difference in smell I can’t name, but nothing surprising and neither had turned offensive to me.

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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by CatCrap »

Best of luck. Defintely will keep an eye on this post. Thanks for posting with so much detail.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Pikey »

OtisT wrote: ...........

Damn, I was worried about loosing that smell in the spirit run. It is so nice right now. If I also lose it in this batch, it will make a good case for a single run Rum next time. :-). Either that, or possibly save a few of the stripping hearts jars from the first run and spike the final product with these set asides? Hmmmm. Otis.
Great thread this

Otis, I'm wondering - if the taste of your first run is so good, might it be worth keeping a portion of the low wines and fortifying it with some doube distilled, rather than using a little of the low wines to add flavour to your double distil ?

I regularly do single distils on both white rum (very low flavour) and whisky and I get decent aging abvs by adding the heads and tails from the previous run into the boiler along with the wash. I also ferment to higher abvs before doing that, somewhere around 12% maybe ?

That together with my high rise pot still column and a little (I believe) passive reflux gives me an easy 60% abv level in hearts - plenty high enough for "Oaking" and retains much of the flavour which double distil dilutes.

Just a thought 8)

I've bookmarked this thread as I'm wanting to make great "Fruity" rum and really interested in the methods explored here.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by der wo »

Was the backset infected? If not, perhaps this is the reason, that there is no strong difference?
If yes, perhaps it's a lactic infection? Lactic acid and ethyl lactate smell similar.

But anyway it will be a nice experiment. I am not sure, how much it changes, when there are no or not the right acids.

0.3ml sulfiric acid in 100ml is much. But no problem I think. And yes, the acid cauuses substances to fall out. Perhaps like acids + proteins? Like if you try to make tee with milk and citron?
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

Pikey wrote:Otis, I'm wondering - if the taste of your first run is so good, might it be worth keeping a portion of the low wines and fortifying it with some doube distilled, rather than using a little of the low wines to add flavour to your double distil ?
Great idea. I only have a small amount of low wines that were not all mixed together, but was able to save 500ml of hearts from a strip run with lots of banana smell and molasses taste. :-)
Pikey wrote: I regularly do single distils on both white rum (very low flavour) and whisky and I get decent aging abvs by adding the heads and tails from the previous run into the boiler along with the wash. I also ferment to higher abvs before doing that, somewhere around 12% maybe ?

That together with my high rise pot still column and a little (I believe) passive reflux gives me an easy 60% abv level in hearts - plenty high enough for "Oaking" and retains much of the flavour which double distil dilutes.
I will be looking to do something similar. I like the smell profile of the single distill product and want to bottle that. :-) Otis
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

der wo wrote:Was the backset infected? If not, perhaps this is the reason, that there is no strong difference?
That could be it. This dunder was uninfected. I decided not to test with the acid on this run. I want to try a few more tests on this first, and besides, I can't create too many side tests and still fill my Badmo barrel. ;-)
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Re: High Ester Rum

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Spirit Run - High Ester Rum

I completed my spirit run last night, incorporating several steps that may help produce more esters.

The charge consisted of 32 liters of 30% ABV low wines and a 6 liter mix of feints/dunder (36% ABV) that has aged for 4 months. I am expecting to collect 13 liters at 70% average ABV.

I am using my 2” VM still. Reflux will only be used for warmup and to pull foreshots. 1.5 scrubbies in the column for packing to compress foreshots. Reflux will be turned off once foreshots are collected.

The boiler went through a long warmup, approx 1 hour from start to first vapor.

The still was left on low power, ~2000 W, under 100% reflux for one hour to promote Fischer esterification.

While under reflux, I collected 125 ml of foreshots over one hour. That was about 1 drip/ sec. reflux was turned off once foreshots were collected.

The rest of the run was normal, pulling at a rate of 100 ml/ minute or 10 minutes/liter. No issues and no weirdness. I collected 12 liters.

Time to let the jars air for a few days while I plan my next steps.

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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

What did it smell/taste like coming off the still???????????????????????????? Man it's like a cliffhanger interrupted by a commercial break!
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

I am looking for some wisdom on the barrel aging of my rum. Opinions welcome as well. ;-) I know this all comes down to what I like, but I am curious what you like in the way of barrel aged sippin rums.

I have two barrel options available for my rum at this time. Both are Badmo style barrels, and I intend to let this soak a good long time. One is toasted(M)/charred(M+), and one is just toasted(M). I hope to make a few more barrels including a natural wood and a light toast barrel head. This would take me some time to setup and make a batch of barrels, but it could be worth the wait for the right wood.

My gut tells me go with the toasted barrel. I think the char would suck too much of what I have been trying to add. Just a theory.

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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Saltbush Bill »

American oak medium toast is my personal preference, and others who have tasted it enjoy my rum.
French oak imparts to much of a sweet taste for my preference, having said that I know a lot of people who do use FO.
What ever you use I wouldn't use a char, smokey flavours have no place in rum in my opinon. Keep heavy toasts and chars for whiskies and UJ type products.
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Re: High Ester Rum

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Single Malt Yinzer wrote:What did it smell/taste like coming off the still???????????????????????????? Man it's like a cliffhanger interrupted by a commercial break!
Sorry bout that. The short answer is I don't have much to report now. Those damn small jars had me busy swapping, labeling, recording, covering, etc. and I did not spend a lot of time sampling as I went. I did smell jars as I went, but the product was so strong I mostly burnt my nose. I can say that I don't get banana any more, but to be fair I have not gone looking for it yet under all that burn and higher alcohol. In the next two days I will give them a good smelling and report back.

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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Shine0n »

I agree with salty, med toast American white oak is the way to go.
As you know I love my rums and expecially the funky kind, I'm glad to see you've started this thread and I'll be subscribed for the duration, I've played with ratios and found that when I use low wines at 35% then add 25% infected dunder for the spirit run it gives me the best flavors so far.
I'm not planning to change anything on my rums as I've spent alot of time in 2017 trying to perfect it, it's nice, clean, good flavors and a bit funky on the back end.

Nice work, great details, hopefully the rum you've been looking for.

I'm not the biggest fan of dark rums, there was something special that happened for mine around 6 months and BAM!!! The rum became special, very nice and complex, wonderful vanilla, caramel, molasses, buttery, the only thing was the the pineapple aromas disappeared after only a month. Bummer but I've made the best rum I've ever tasted and now you're well on your way to doing the same.

The hardest part you'll find is not wanting to taste it, I had only 1 quart of it left to bring to S3-18 but I opened the back door to my truck and it rolled out and smashed on the concrete. SHIT!!! now I'm in a rush to get another wash going and have 8 months to get it aged but it's doable and I hope you have the chance to come to the gathering so you can have a pour and I hope you bring yours so we can compare.

Anyway brother, I'm definitely subscribed to your venture with rums and look forward to helping and learning.

Shine0n
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

Summary of Cuts

I was able to do two cuts in total from this batch of rum. I let all the jars air for 3 days. Jar volume loss progressed from 7% at the head up to 25% at the tail.

1. White Cut – I assessed the main collection and decided where to make cuts for a white rum as well as where to make cuts for barrel aging. I mixed the white cut first and pulled 600 ml at 71% to set aside for drinking. About 1 liter after being proofed down to 40%. The white cut is 30% of the total run volume, from 34% to 63% in location.

2. Barrel Cut – I mixed in the remaining cut jars with my white cut which resulted in ~8 liters at 69% for barrel aging. Diluted to 62% I filled my Badmo barrel (med toast, no char) and I have 1 liter left to play with. The barrel cut is 55% of the total run volume, from 26% to 80% in location.

I’m no rum expert. In general I am encouraged that the rum is pleasant with no offensive odors or tastes, and I think it will turn out real nice. It is really quite more subtle than I was expecting, which makes my white cut pleasant but less “Rummy” than I would like. Even the barrel cut has only a slight molasses rum and bottoms smell to it and I am underwhelmed by both the rumminess and the character right now. I’d give it a “meh?” I have confidence that time in the barrel will make this a fine drop because there are some good smells/tastes in there.

Much of the fruitiness and any trace of banana are gone after the spirit run. As mentioned earlier, this is much more subtle and neutral than I was expecting.

Detailed notes from Cuts

Whether ester or something else, below are some of my observations of individual jars while making cuts. I mostly had half pint jars for 400ml/3% sized fractions. I track everything by % through the run so the number of jars and the volume of each jar become irrelevant for my needs.
Bottom half of run laid out of cuts
Bottom half of run laid out of cuts
Jars and diluted sample cups for making cuts
Jars and diluted sample cups for making cuts
Hearts to Heads Cut (% refers to how far through the run a jar is)

@ 47% Heart of hearts. Most neutral. Detect slight bottoms and molasses – super light rumminess
@ 36% Last “neutral” jar with no sweet or trace of heads. No more bottoms. Slight Molasses/rum still
*** White Cut Here ***
@33% First trace of sweet and chemical (maybe the same thing?)
@30% Something new and pleasant I can’t describe
@28% Last detectable molasses. Good sweet.
*** Barrel Cut Here ***
@25% Flat sweet
@22% Sharp, chemical sweet starts. No need to go further.
@22% New chemical smell. OUT for sure.
@19% Something new and even nastier
@17% Kill me now, I’m done

Hearts to Tails Cut

@55% Slightly sweet rummy
@58% little sweet
@61% Sweet mixed with hint of bottoms
@63% same
*** White Cut Here ***
@66% First light hint of Real Bottoms. Something spicy, like cinnamon?
@69% Bottoms light. Something spicy, like cinnamon?
@72% Step up in bottoms. Spice gone?
@74% Bottoms plus Something New and pleasant I can’t describe
@77% Bottoms plus Same new thing
@80% More intense bottoms
*** Barrel Cut Here ***
@83% OUT – too much butt for me

In a few days I plan to sit down with my two blended cuts and see if I can describe what I detect in them when all stewed together.

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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Shine0n wrote:around 6 months and BAM!!! The rum became special, very nice and complex, wonderful vanilla, caramel, molasses, buttery,
Caramel and Buttery are the two that I think I taste most in my rum, I don't ever remember getting pineapple at any stage of the process. New make rum to me tastes pretty ordinary at best,
OtisT wrote:I am underwhelmed by both the rumminess and the character right now. I’d give it a “meh?”
Time and oak bring out the rum flavours, just give both of them time to do their jobs. 12 months from now I'll be surprised if you recognize it as the same spirit that left the still.
PS I would have oaked it all , Ive aged white rum for up to two years and not tasted a great deal of improvement.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by butterpants »

Awesome writeup, TY
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by SaltyStaves »

OtisT wrote: Much of the fruitiness and any trace of banana are gone after the spirit run. As mentioned earlier, this is much more subtle and neutral than I was expecting.
I think you've played a high risk game and walked away with something to show for it. :thumbup: You infected your wash before pitching the yeast and that always carries a risk with no guarantee of success.
I did that (unintentionally) and tried to use the failed wash as a kickstart for my muck pit. I'll have to wait to see if it pays off.
I have 5 gallons of low wines that I know will make a perfectly nice but boring rum (if I run them now), but I'm hoping that my muck pit can add something to make it special (before the spirit run(s)).

Its less risk this way. If I run a small amounts through my little gin still, it will give me a few goes to get it right.
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Shine0n »

I'm too scared of mucking up a whole wash, that's why I use the dunder to low wines way as I know what I have and can control the amount of funk going in.

I have 3 pits going and one is going to be really good just from the smells coming off it, I have 2 5 gal pits that I used Swiss cheese culture in and a lacto, my large pit 15 gal I used raw potatoes and soil from the garden and it's very funky.

I split it and add 25% dunder to total volume of low wines and it's given me the best rum I've made to date, sadly it's all gone now so I'll have jump in with a couple 30 gal washes to strip very soon. I have 180 lbs of blackstrap so I should be good to go.

Glad to see others going the same path with muck pits, although our protocols differ, we're after the same reward... Bold, flavorful rums.

Keep up the good works, I'll be watching this thread :thumbup:
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by OtisT »

SaltyStaves wrote:
OtisT wrote:I think you've played a high risk game and walked away with something to show for it. :thumbup: You infected your wash before pitching the yeast and that always carries a risk with no guarantee of success
I am not as daring as you think. :-( I killed the infection in my dunder by bringing it up to approx. 160 F along with some water and the sugar i was dissolving for the ferment.

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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Sub'd!..

har druckit för mycket
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Re: High Ester Rum

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

OtisT wrote:I am not as daring as you think. :-( I killed the infection in my dunder by bringing it up to approx. 160 F along with some water and the sugar i was dissolving for the ferment.

Otis
Next time go wild! Maybe put the infected dunder in after a day or two to limit sugar losses.
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