Peated Whiskey

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OtisT
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Peated Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Howdy folks. I’m making my second batch of peated whiskey and am wondering this; Where and when should I be detecting peat in my distilled product?

Through the distillation process I’ve only gotten occasional faint whiffs of peat so far and wondering if this is normal and if so, when does the peat come back? I completed one “light” batch and started a second heavier batch a few days back. FYI, I do smell the peat in my ferment.

My first batch was roughly 40% peated grains, and those were a “light peat”. The other 60% was a Barvarian wheat LME. Double pot stilled and cut like my normal whiskey. Smelled like a new whiskey, and I did not detect peat in it. Into the barrel it went. I thought maybe I simply did not use enough peat, so I decided a second heavier batch was in order.

My current batch has a grain bill that is all barley, using 50% Simpsons “heavy peat”, 46% 2-row, and 4% Victory malt. I’ve only stripped part of this batch so far, but again I’m not finding any peat smell in my low wines. I am hoping the spirit run will expose the peat of this second batch.

With regard to my runs and cuts, I have read that a lot of the peat smell resides in the deep tails. I ran my strips until I was collecting well below 10%. I did not detect peat there (maybe hiding under my tails smell) but am hopeful it will come out in the spirit run.

Otis

[Note - working with all barley is a wonderful thing. Its been over a year since I have done an AG with no Corn or Rye, and I forgot how easy it is working with just wheat and barley. The grains practically separate themselves from the liquid. :-) ]
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by Wild Bill »

I did a ag scotch with 85% peated malt and the result was quite subtle. I even went a bit further into tails looking for that smoky goodness. While the flavor is there it is in the background. I put a couple of teaspoons of the peated malt directly into 500ml of of oaking strength spirit to see if I can get a bit more of the flavor in the spirit. I will report back.
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by der wo »

I never had this problem. Are you sure the malt was really the heavily peated one? Heavily peated malted barley smells like a cold ashtray. If you store a bag in a room, you should smell it a bit even without opening the bag.
You loose much while fermentation. But in all stages (milling, mashing, fermenting, low wines, new make) you should smell it. Not always a good flavor. IMO there is no good peated malt without aging. No way to accelerate it with homedistillers methods. All my peated malt whiskies (from different malt sources) have fresh distilled a strong naphtalene smell, which still only slowly ages away.

Edit: To bump the peat smell, mazrate a bit peated malt in the low wines a few days before the spirit run. Something like 1kg per 100l low wines.
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by HDNB »

Aye. peat puts fire in new whiskey. time will put the fire out but done right, the heat will remain.

just smoking a wee batch now. it was no trouble to roll it, but it was a bitch to light. :lol: :lol: :roll:
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by JellybeanCorncob »

Hey Otis: A year and a half ago I made a 50/50 peated all malt using half Simpson's and half peated Simpson's malt barley. After a year I bottled it. It had a light peat flavor and aroma. It never had a naphtalene smell like DerWo said. It is good but light in flavor. No depth to it. Where I live I could only find lightly peatd Simpson's malt. I didn't know that they made a heavy peat malt. While I was making the Simpson's peat batch I was busy making friends with a member here from Ireland. He was kind enough to send me some peat blocks from his neck of the woods. After researching smokers I built a cold smoker and smoked my own. WOW, that was the way to go. I smoked 40% of the malt and the result is (so far) a medium peat flavor, even at 6 months the flavor is more complex than anything I've made yet. Well see at a year then maybe 16 months.
I just bought the wood for my new (bigger) smoke box. My next batch will be a 100% peat smoked whiskey.
Otis, If you can find Baird's Heavily Peated malt it's suppose to be heavier peat smoke flavor. Or better yet buy some peat and smoke your own. There is a distillery in Seattle that is using peat from a bog up there. Check this out: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... xoAXbms8Y2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Good luck to you.
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Thanks all. I can verify that the 55# bag of Simpson’s was labeled Heavy Peat. That said, it was not as strong smelling as der wo described and I personally was questioning how heavy it was because I have smelt peated grains that were much stronger that what I had. It did smell stronger than the “light peat” I used in my previous batch. I will see about trying Baird’s next, unless I get a wild hair and decide to smoke my own as some suggest. Maybe it’s time to read up on peat bogs?

I’ll be very happy if I get a descent light but easily noticeable peat smell when all done. I was not looking for a heavily peated drink, but I sure don’t want it to be so light that folks need to search for the peat.

I’m not sure what naphthalene smells like, but I’ll be researching that today. My low wines do smell strong, like normal, but it is an overwhelming smell so maybe what I want is hiding in there waiting to be uncovered.

I have two more strips to do, hopefully today, then I will pot still this soon after and see what I get. I have one last empty badmo barrel waiting for this batch (med toast American oak) then it will be time to whip up another set of barrels before I do more fermenting.

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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by Swedish Pride »

you need to dig deeeeeep in the tails.
i used 2kg 50ppm peated malt in a 40l mash, it plenty peaty, not lagavulin peaty but its undoubtedly a Scotch.

went to deep in the tails the jars were clear again, had about 4 cloudy jars and then i jar of clear stuff that was super peaty and about 20%.
I run a plater so hardly any booze left when you get 20% off the spout.

Hope this helps somewhat
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by bluefish_dist »

My first batch was with 4% bairds heavy peated malt and the fermentation smelled of peat and tasted like a log in a campfire. Turned out great. I did two more batches with crisp medium peat, 100% and 30%. Both were less peat going into the barrel than first batch. going to try some more of the bairds heavy peat to see if it will make a more peated whiskey.
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by der wo »

Swedish Pride,
I am quite sure that there is no Scottish distillery collecting after the tails again into the hearts container. So you surely don't need to dig deep in the tails for peat flavor. A normal tails cut point for a commercial double potstilled peated Malt is 60-65%abv in the parrot.
But though, it's an interesting observation and perhaps worth to try it.
When stripping peated malt I recognized that the peat flavor is strong at the end after most of the alcohol is stripped. If you collect this, you rise the peat level of the low wines and I am sure also of the newmake.
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by zapata »

Keep in mind that the Scott's are also recycling those peated tails. So while they arent putting them directly into the hearts cut, they are collecting and keeping them. Might make a "sweet water" cut more appropriate for those of us without 20 generations of peated tails. (Though with peated malt fare we really call it "sweetwater"?)
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Thanks all.

I did collect deep into tails on my strips and plan to collect deep on my spirit run to see what I get in those late tails. I did not get any noticeable cloudy oil on the stripping runs, but I did collect until what was coming off the still was around 8%. Does anyone think I should have taken it down further? It was a strip run, so I collected in large containers and did not observe changes through the run.

I do plan to keep my spirit run tails that don’t make this cut, to add to my next batch of peated whiskey. So zapata, this batch will have to forego the scotch treatment but my next one...... :-)

This is gonna sound weird, but for some reason this peated ferment and/or low wines are smelling like Bacon to me. I’ve been smelling the ferment and low wines in the house for a week now and just today, as I was squeezing the last grains for my final strip it hit me that it smells like bacon to me. That smell must be the peat but my brain is translating it to bacon. It’s no wonder I have been hungry and craving bacon for days. I actually bought a bag of bacon snacks yesterday at Costco when I ran across them, something I would normally not buy. Damn, I’m hungry again just typing about it. Think I’ll have some bacon treats. I may be experiencing the first reported case of Bacon Brain this season. :crazy:

I’ll take good notes on the spirit run and let you all know how my current experiment with peat turns out.

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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by Oldvine Zin »

It's a strange coincidence but last night a co worker brought a bottle of Westland's peated single malt for an after work sip. I've tasted their other offerings and have never been impressed, to my surprise this was very enjoyable. Might have to try smoking some grain with PNW peat.

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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by The Baker »

Throw a little 'cooked hard' bacon into a jar....?

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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by Oldvine Zin »

The Baker wrote:Throw a little 'cooked hard' bacon into a jar....?

Geoff
a barrel made of bacon lol
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by der wo »

OtisT wrote: I did collect until what was coming off the still was around 8%. Does anyone think I should have taken it down further? It was a strip run, so I collected in large containers and did not observe changes through the run.
What was the wash abv? And the abv of the low wines? "Normal" would be a wash with 8%abv and then low wines with 23%abv. If your low wines are higher in abv, you stopped at least earlier than the large distilleries do. But this cannot be the reason, that you lost all the peat flavor.

When I think of bacon flavor, I think of smoked beers not about Malt Whisky. The malt for smoked beers is smoked normally with beech wood, not with wet peat. The only peated Malt which has a bit bacon IMO is the Port Charlotte. The big three Ardbeg, Lagavulin and Laphroaig don't have it at all IMO.
For me it sounds that your malted barley is the problem. If there is a problem (if you don't like the bacon).
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by Swedish Pride »

der wo wrote:Swedish Pride,
I am quite sure that there is no Scottish distillery collecting after the tails again into the hearts container. So you surely don't need to dig deep in the tails for peat flavor. A normal tails cut point for a commercial double potstilled peated Malt is 60-65%abv in the parrot.
But though, it's an interesting observation and perhaps worth to try it.
When stripping peated malt I recognized that the peat flavor is strong at the end after most of the alcohol is stripped. If you collect this, you rise the peat level of the low wines and I am sure also of the newmake.
ah yeah, was not saying thats what the commercial folks do, just sharing my experience to perhaps help.
I reckon Zapata is bang on the money, so much peat in the tails that it will eventually overflow in to the hearts, much like rum oils.
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

der wo wrote:
OtisT wrote: I did collect until what was coming off the still was around 8%. Does anyone think I should have taken it down further? It was a strip run, so I collected in large containers and did not observe changes through the run.
What was the wash abv? And the abv of the low wines? "Normal" would be a wash with 8%abv and then low wines with 23%abv. If your low wines are higher in abv, you stopped at least earlier than the large distilleries do. But this cannot be the reason, that you lost all the peat flavor.

When I think of bacon flavor, I think of smoked beers not about Malt Whisky. The malt for smoked beers is smoked normally with beech wood, not with wet peat. The only peated Malt which has a bit bacon IMO is the Port Charlotte. The big three Ardbeg, Lagavulin and Laphroaig don't have it at all IMO.
For me it sounds that your malted barley is the problem. If there is a problem (if you don't like the bacon).
My wash ABV was quite high, over 9% (~2.5 lb/gallon), and my Low Wines combined for an ABV of 40%. This was with cutting off when my distillate was coming off the still around 8%. On a more typical grain run in my pot still with a 7.5 ABV wash, my low wines typically average 30-35% when I cut off at 8-10%. Hearing that you end up with 23% low wines, I must not be going nearly as deep as others suggest. I need to consider changing my cutoff point.

Yes, I also don’t associate the smell of bacon with whiskey. I think that what I am smelling is actually the peat, and very likely I am simply not familiar enough with the smell of peated grains mid processing. I do like smoked bacon, so maybe that is how/why my brain is confusing the two. I’m sure after a few more batches and trying different grains I will figure this out.

I ageee, it may be the peated malt that is a bit off. A year or so ago I remember smelling some heavily peated grains that I knew were peat smoked. Strong and very distinctive, and it only took a split second to know exactly what it was. The bag I got recently did not have nearly the peat kick I remember from last year, and the smell of peat was not immediately identifiable as it was previously.

Thanks for all the support folks. You all rock.

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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

zapata wrote:Keep in mind that the Scott's are also recycling those peated tails. So while they arent putting them directly into the hearts cut, they are collecting and keeping them. Might make a "sweet water" cut more appropriate for those of us without 20 generations of peated tails. (Though with peated malt fare we really call it "sweetwater"?)
Hey Zapata. I had a pleasant surprise last night. I was prepping for my spirit run, organizing my stilling room, and found the feints from my first peated spirit that I thought I had already used in my last all feints run. :-). So I can apply a bit of the Scotch treatment by adding some tails to my spirit run charge. I have 1.5 liters of heads/tails transition and 1liter of pure tails to reuse that did not make the previous cut. The previous batch was not as peaty as this current one, but the grains are the same so it should match nicely and not mess with with what the am doing now.

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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by zapata »

Hell yeah, score!

On the 23% low wines, I think derwo meant that would be "normal" for the Scottish distilleries. Maybe he strips that low as well, but it would seem the extreme end of "normal" for most HDers, most simply dont have the patience. I would certainly aim for under 30% at least regardless of wash abv. 23% pretty much demands an abv bump from feints. Without feints, I think 23% would be too low to run through a simple pot still. Off the top of my head 28% seems a minimum for a spirit run still charge.

I was recently tossing some ideas around for this though, and considered a 2 spirit run protocol that allows for capturing deep tails distillate without feints in hand. The first batch of strips are divided into a 28-30% abv cut, call it "high wines" and an about 10% abv cut, call them deep low wines. The first spirit run would be the 28-30% high wines. From there I saw 2 options.
1. The 2nd batch of wash/es could be mixed with the ~ 10% low wines before stripping, and run deep into the low 20's. Mix these low wines with the feints of the first spirit run to yield a 2nd spirit run charge of at least 28%. Combine both spirit runs and you've captured about as much as possible from both batches of wash.
2. OR strip the 2nd batch of wash/es to low wines in the low 20's. Combine these low wines, the previous ~ 10% low wines, and batch 1's feints for a 2nd spirit run charge of at least 28%. Combine both spirit runs.

Either way it requires 2 sets of stripping runs, and 2 spirit runs, but everything is captured, including the late "tails" from the first strip which otherwise cant really be used without feints to bump the abv

I'm considering this for an upcoming single malt because I think somehow I have myself ended up without any malt feints, but I really thought I had some. Maybe like Otis I will find them laying around after all.
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by der wo »

zapata wrote:On the 23% low wines, I think derwo meant that would be "normal" for the Scottish distilleries. Maybe he strips that low as well, but it would seem the extreme end of "normal" for most HDers, most simply dont have the patience. I would certainly aim for under 30% at least regardless of wash abv. 23% pretty much demands an abv bump from feints. Without feints, I think 23% would be too low to run through a simple pot still. Off the top of my head 28% seems a minimum for a spirit run still charge.
This is true, but you overestimate the effect a bit. The spirit still charge is 25-28% (based on data of seven Scottish distilleries). All runs are distilled down to 0 or 1% alcohol. Also the spirit run. This is why the feints are low abv, although the tails cut point is relative early (63% in the parrot).
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

der wo wrote:to another poster: This is true, but you overestimate the effect a bit. The spirit still charge is 25-28% (based on data of seven Scottish distilleries). All runs are distilled down to 0 or 1% alcohol. Also the spirit run. This is why the feints are low abv, although the tails cut point is relative early (63% in the parrot).
Wow, I am glad I ran this spirit run down low, even if I did end up using an embarrassing number of jars to get there. I ran this past the oil/cloudy jars and down to 30% ABV coming off the still when I had to shut down for the day. I started this up again this morning and ran it down to 2% product. I would like to have gone further, but I was worried my element was going to become exposed.

With the air cleared for a day before I finished the run, I had the opportunity to noticed that for the first few jars coming off the still (from 20% down to 9%) that the smell of peat was not that strong and the smell of tails was fairly light. With all the peat (bacon) in the air here from the last week of processing, I would never have noticed this had I done one continuous spirit run. Once I got down to around 8% ABV the peat smell picked up again with a vengeance all the way to the end.

I will need to taste things once this has aired, but based on the smelling jars off of the still I think this will likely be one of my widest cuts, and I will definitely entertain using late tails jars to dilute this to barrel strength. Now that I am over the whole bacon thing, I am getting excited about this batch. :-)

Lesson learned: Next time I make a peated whiskey, I will be running all my strips and the spirit run down low, and will ensure I have the volume in my spirit charge to run it down to 0%. I am curious to know if the peat will still be present in my product at 0 ABV? (cliff hanger)

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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

I made cuts today. Happy to say I figured out a lot about the peat thing and I also used some of the very late tails in the barrel cut. Thanks for your help. I still think peat smells a lot like bacon. ;-)

For the main cut I kept all of the hearts and went fairly far into the tails until I got a bitter taste that I find after first detecting tails and before the cloudy/oil. It was difficult not keeping some of the late heads, they smell so nice, but I wanted to keep all of the heads out of this batch.

Next I looked at my late tails jars, focusing on the jars at the very end that I thought smelled nicely of peat coming off of the still (Jars from 6% ABV down to below 2% ABV.) They all smell of faint tails and a good peat. All things being relative, the later jars smelled more of peat and less of tails. I tasted each of the jars. Not bad at all. No bitter tails. Quite refreshing, being 98% water. I will say I could smell the tails a bit, and I could taste a good amount of peat. It had a good mouth feel leaving a light, smooth coating in my mouth and a taste of peat that lingered for half a minute. I ended up using a little more than 1 liter from the very end of this run to proof down my barrel cut to 62%.

I ended up with 9 Liters of 62% barrel cut peated whiskey. It smelled nicer before I added the tails water, but still not bad at all for new make after proofing. I filled my last empty Badmo style barrel with this run, 6.5 liters. This barrel is American White Oak, Med/Lt Toast. (380 F for 2.5 hours).

I added the remaining 2.5 liters to 2.5 liters of my previous peated whiskey in a toasted/charred Badmo style barrel. The previous batch was a very light peat, and I am thinking this blend will turn out nice. It will be fun comparing the two next year.

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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by Swedish Pride »

good job man!
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Just an update.

I had a few pro distillers over recently and we did some tastings of my recent work, including my two different barrels of peated whiskey. I got quite a chuckle when I mentioned the bacon smell story. They also think it smells like bacon or smoking meat when they make peated spirits, so I don’t feel so silly now.

After a month in the barrel the smell to me is a solid peat whiskey ( no more bacon). I think the bacon I perceive is when there is so much peat in the air my senses are overloaded.

The mix barrel, half light peat and half heavy peat spirits, still smells of new make and peat.

The heavy peat barrel is all peat with no new make smell ( no tails detectable). Not sure if this was simply a narrower cut, or just so much peat I can’t find the tails. Things are maturing nicely. Only about 23 months to go.

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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by bilgriss »

I never smell bacon in a peated malt. It's much more ashy to me, aging into something pleasant with time. Bacon, like Der Wo mentions, seems more from a wood-smoked malt.

Sounds like you are learning a lot, and I'm enjoying reading about your findings!
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by bluefish_dist »

Now that we have a few months on the 2nd and 3rd batches, I have some feedback on peat levels and the result in the finished product. We have now done 3 different barrels, first was 4% heavy peat, balance malted barley. Second was 30% crisps medium peat, third was 100% crisps medium peat.

Run 1, peat at the front, fading to malt, not a lot of smoke.

Run 2, slightly more peat and more smoke than #1.

Run 3, more peat and a lot more smoke. Really coats the tongue.

It appears that the peatiness does not change as much with additional peated malt, but the smokiness does increase with more peated malt. The next one is 75% medium peat and 25% heavy peat. It's almost ready to distill.
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

bluefish_dist wrote:Now that we have a few months on the 2nd and 3rd batches, I have some feedback on peat levels and the result in the finished product. We have now done 3 different barrels, first was 4% heavy peat, balance malted barley. Second was 30% crisps medium peat, third was 100% crisps medium peat.

Run 1, peat at the front, fading to malt, not a lot of smoke.

Run 2, slightly more peat and more smoke than #1.

Run 3, more peat and a lot more smoke. Really coats the tongue.

It appears that the peatiness does not change as much with additional peated malt, but the smokiness does increase with more peated malt. The next one is 75% medium peat and 25% heavy peat. It's almost ready to distill.
Sweet info. What size and style of barrels are you using? If charred, do the think the smoke you detect is from the char or the peat smoked grains, or both?
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bluefish_dist
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by bluefish_dist »

Using 15 gallon #3 char. Different cooperages, all first use. Based on that I think the smoke flavor is mostly from the grain.
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Durhommer
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by Durhommer »

Ok so I used a pound of peated barley malt with some 12 pounds lme the smell and carryover flavor is very strong ashtray/dirty socks grungy I stripped 2 runs and they both have the same characters I'm going to add them2gallon low wines to some 2 gallon 6 row corn oat lowines for a spirit run and age on charred white oak.ive had some good scotch from the store that had this rank smell so I'm hoping I'm on track to have a gallon of peat smoke whiskey
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Re: Peated Whiskey

Post by OtisT »

If your cuts are like mine, ~50% of the run volume is kept in the cut, you should have just enough for a gallon at barrel strength. :-). I hope it turns out well for you.

Mine have been in new badmo style barrels for 15 months so far, and I’m thinking that a minimum of 2 years is in order. Should be ready just in time for summer camping and hopefully another PNW meet and greet. Barrels are American white oak, med toast, med char. These are peat monsters for sure, especially barrel #2, which used a bit more and a heavier smoked grain that what was used for making barrel #1.

I’ve noticed a change in these spirits in last few months with some vanilla and other smells starting to come through, especially noticeable in barrel 1. I’ve been thinking that I was still detecting a hint of tails in the nose of #2, but it may just be the strong smoke throwing me off. Maybe a bit of both, considering I did use sweet-water for proofing down. These are my first smoked grain spirits so it’s a learning experience for sure.

Just had a sip of samples I pulled from the two barrels. Not bad. :-)

Otis
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
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