My agave spirit

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Brian Boru
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Brian Boru »

Someone else suggested 21 Missions agave syrup. What is the brix of the nectar? Did you dilute with water before fermenting your wash?
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by pope »

Yes dilute, 8:1 water:agave as a starting point, then check your brix. If you read back over this I'm fairly certain we covered dilution and brix/starting gravity.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Brian Boru »

Thanks! You did, although you added some cooked agave which I assume adds some fermentable sugars. I talked to the guy at 21Missions and they suggest 9:1 dilution for a wash with an ABV of 5%. I generally shoot for 8-9%. Is there any reason not to go with a wash that starts around 15 Brix?
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by jonnys_spirit »

More chance that it’s going to stress the yeast and stall but experimentation and sharing of results is encouraged. I’ll do smaller ferments of blue agave and mix in some backset and boiled trub from last strip, adjust pH, and use a pocket full of shells to prevent a crash.

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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Brian Boru »

I was thinking that might be the case. I plan to use saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast and add a LAB at the end. I might try a 7:1 dilution to get higher ABV and see what happens. I'll add some yeast nutrient and get a yeast starter going before pitching.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by jonnys_spirit »

That’s the great thing about hoe-made. You can customize however you like. I’ve also used the agave syrup with a couple smoked sweet potatoes purée’d into the wash. They don’t really add any sweet potato flavor but the subtle smoking does and some natural nutrient. Since i have gravitated towards smaller ferments and stretching out the process over time my low-wines end up sitting around for a while so i throw a couple toasted and charred sticks in the carboy sometimes. Does it help/hurt? It makes me feel good lol.

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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Brian Boru »

In know someone who used agave nectar and added brown sugar to get the ABV up. His result was pretty good. I want to try the pure agave though. I'm a blanco guy. I want the agave spirit flavor. I'll let my pot still and single malts speak through the wood.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by StuNY »

StuNY wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:06 pm
jonnys_spirit wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:26 pm I chatted with someone at 21 Missions about their various products and AF protocols for a good 30 min. Seemed very knowledgeable. Ended up ordering 2x 5gallon buckets of their Organic Raw Agave, Org-agave-nectar-black , dark-amber 55 and a bottle of their Raw Agave Terpenes 3 Lbs. agave-terpenes.
Cost me a couple hundred bucks shipped and I’ll do it again. Always interested in experiences and other suppliers too.
Cheers!
Jonny
I have a batch I just started based on your other post Jonny. I used the terpenes from 21 missions but had gotten a good deal on 4 gallons of the Wholesome Organic Blue Agave at Restaurant depot so using that with it. The guy at 21 missions was very helpful- I pestered him a bit about exact ratio's etc. He mentioned that additional terpenes can be added for the spirit run or even after when putting it up for aging. Ever try that? I am planning to put the same dose I put into the wash into the boiler for the spirit run.

Fermenting now, smells good! Holding it at 85f with SafTeq Blue yeast. I am planning to make half silver, then the other half aged on oak for a bit to see how the flavors develop.
Update on my results:
(I used Wholesome Organic Blue Agave, 21 Missions terpenes and SafTeq yeast. Ferment at 85f and starting gravity was 1.52)
The silver was surprisingly good when I finished it back in July. Drinkable straight but in a margarita it passed for pretty good commercial stuff.

Just tasted my Rapasado today after 5 months on once used bourbon oak. I didn't rechar the oak like I usually do because I thought it would darken it too much and I was after a light golden color. Well tasting is complete and this is a pretty darn authentic blue agave tequila! Really great for sipping with all the complex flavors. I was really surprised to get this result using the Agave syrup.

Just put in an order from Restaurant Depot for 4 more gallons of the Wholesome- The silver was a pretty big hit with friends and family but this is going to really be special!
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by rubberduck71 »

Restaurant Depot you need a membership for? If so, how much is it?
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by StuNY »

It doesn't cost anything but you have to be a little creative with the application. It is intended for businesses of course. Any business can be used though even if having nothing to do with a restaurant! I get all my corn meal there for bourbon too. $18 a 50lb bag waiting for you to pull up and get put in your car. 50lb bags of sugar etc. for the vodka as well. Might as well call it "distillers depot" haha!

Blue agave is not cheap though... $52 for a two gallon case. (makes about a gallon of 62% abv for me)
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

Ordered premium dark Azul raw agave 45 & terpenes from 21 Missions. Have SafTec Blue yeast on hand.
A guy from 21M called me as a courtesy to let me know that my order was split into two shipments a day apart. I was on the road so we wound up talking for 20-30 minutes. Nice guy.
He was very adamant on the 1:9 agave:water ratio for successful ferments. He said any more would be too much, because this raw nectar has a pure sugar (6-sides?) vs a processed (5-sided) sugar. He said you get more bang for the buck at this ratio, any more can result in unfermented nectar, i.e., less yield.
He recommended step feeding the nutrients over the course of the ferment vs adding the nutes all at once.
He said bread yeast would work if you don’t have tequila yeast. I’ll probably use both.
He said you could add the terpenes to the wash - but placing them in the vapor path like a gin basket would be better, the spirit run, and to the final product as well.
The current website info states “1/2 cup (180 ml) terpenes per 5 gallons wort.”
Earlier in this thread, I believe 60 ml terpenes per 15 gallons was a max dose, so I’m undecided on how much terpenes to use.
I’m going to wait for summer weather to kick in good before I start any all agave ferments.
I wanted to post up this info while it was still fresh in my head, so please excuse the rambling.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by StuNY »

Sounds like you are good to go 8Ball! After some confusion about the amount of terpenes I called the guy to make sure before I ran my first batch and he confirmed 20ml/5 gallons of water for distilling. The higher number is intended for beers. Also, my last batch I put another 20ml/5 gallons per his advice in with my low wines for the spirit run. Might be better to add it once the hearts start coming out- may try that next batch. Terpenes must be the key to getting a decent Tequila taste, mine have come out great!
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Re: My agave spirit

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StuNY wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:56 am Sounds like you are good to go 8Ball! After some confusion about the amount of terpenes I called the guy to make sure before I ran my first batch and he confirmed 20ml/5 gallons of water for distilling. The higher number is intended for beers. Also, my last batch I put another 20ml/5 gallons per his advice in with my low wines for the spirit run. Might be better to add it once the hearts start coming out- may try that next batch. Terpenes must be the key to getting a decent Tequila taste, mine have come out great!
Thanks StuNY! That does clear things up regarding different doses of terpenes. Waiting until the hearts show up to add terpenes sounds like a good plan to maximize flavor.

I’m thinking ahead of getting some fresh pine needles and soaking the terpenes in them. Then dosing the low wines with the pine needle—agave terpenes essence & wrapping the needles in some copper mesh. Then place the needles in the riser loosely with a couple scrubbers to hold it in place.

I’ve heard that folks south of the border use pine needles as agave adjuncts ...
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by StuNY »

Sounds interesting- let me know how the pine needles work out!
Also note that when I referenced the 20ml/5 gallons in the low wines the 5 gallons represent the original wash- NOT the low wines. Basically putting whatever amount you put in the original ferment into the low wines.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by 8Ball »

It’ll be awhile, but I’ll post up when I do. Going to do a baseline first, then will try a small one with the pine needles. I’m sure the pine varieties all differ but maybe not so much to make a difference.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Hectorlandaeta »

Did an experiment about 2 weeks ago I wanted to share with the collective. Half "Bulk Raw Blue Agave Dark Brewing Nectar UWC 45" from Missions 21, half inverted sucrose syrup by volume, approx. the recommended tarpenes dose as per Missions 21 page, and Lallemand Distilamax TQ.
My theory was that yeast selection and ferm params were going to be more influential of final product than sugar source, and compared to the full agave + tarpenes run it's "almost" the same, so confirmed the hypothesis.
Both runs were done on a 240v x 2.5 kW fired boiler and 3" x 4 bubble cap plated flute column at very low to no reflux, with extra copper exposure in the form of 1 x 6" x 6" + 1 x 3" x 6" stages half-filled with "Bokakob's rigatoni" (3/8" soft copper pipe cut to about 3/4").
Both runs took 2.5 hours each, at about 12 gallon fills, 100% power till first plate filled (about 45-55 minutes) and 65% for the rest of the run.
Noted the yeast liked more the inverted sucrose wash as fermentation was more active for longer, both in the starter batch and the final volume ones.
Alcoholic yield was also a tad lower for the full agave wash. Average ABV was about 69% for the full agave and 76% for the inverted sugar one, IIRC (notes not at hand). Fermentation time was 12 days for each. Collected volume was about 1.6 gallons on both. Used 3 drops of Defoamer 105 on each boiler charge.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by StuNY »

Cool experiment- so how did they taste?
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Hectorlandaeta »

Apart from very similar one to the other, like something resembling more a reposado in smoothness than a white or silver tequila. A friend compared the invert sugar one to 1800 silver tequila.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by StuNY »

Interesting. Curious about your fermentation. What was your sg when you started fermenting? I've been told to keep it really low so start mine around 1.050. I use the SafTeq Blue and keep my fermentation at 85f. Mine take about 10 days to finish fermenting but it is pretty linear- no real slowing down just decreasing sg slowly until finally ending at 1.000. Left my last batch half silver, the other half I aged on used oak for a month and now have left "resting" for a few months. Haven't had a taste of that one yet so anxious to compare the two!
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Re: My agave spirit

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I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the terpenes dosage rates stated so far. On the 21 Missions website, one page recommends 180 ml per 5G wash. On the actual terpenes description page, it states 20 ml per 5G. I have a bottle of terpenes and have added 1ml/L to some previously made agave spirit and it tastes good. So, I’m wanting to think that 21 Missions means add 20 ml/5G of distilled product. But when I spoke to them recently, the guy said 20ml/5G added to the wash pre-ferment. I just don’t understand how so little (20 ml) in a ferment will make the difference since it tastes very similar to the 21M raw dark agave. Is anyone else faced with this dilemma? I know StuNY responded previously verifying that 20ml works, but has anyone-tried adding more?
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Hectorlandaeta »

StuNY wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:48 am What was your sg when you started fermenting?
17° Plato, so 1.070 according to an online table I found. Full agave nectar washes are supposedly intolerant to high gravity washes, but I assume that's nearer 19 °P. At 17 it worked fine, with no lag on the yeast starters that were done at an even 14° P (1.057). I have the custom from my brewing days of dividing the re-hydrated yeast in at least 3 different vessels, in this case, 3 amber gallon jugs, that I taste for any bacterial infection or off-taste, and visually confirm yeast activity by amount of dead yeast sediment at the bottom before pitching to full volume batch, typically 12 gallons, but sometimes that is the starter for the 48-gallon final volume batch. Normally I pitch at 48 to 72 hours, and bubbling activity can be seen at the blow-off hose within 5-10 minutes. Fermentation temps for this batches were an even 76 °F on average, but it got significantly lower at night and a tad nearer 80 at noon. I don't measure ferm end by wash gravity but by yeast activity. The last couple of days I use to give the fermenter some shakings so as to break the osmotic layering the yeastie beasties tend to form when hard at work. The first couple of days I give the fermenters more of a big shaking to add some oxygen to the solution. I forgot to mention I thoroughly oxygenate my wash prior to pitching with a Blichmann inline setup and an air pump instead of O2 bottle. Used to do it with a pressure washer but water measuring got to be a tad tricky. The last works better with bigger batches, but hitting a narrow gravity window gets hit or miss.
Last edited by Hectorlandaeta on Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Hectorlandaeta »

8Ball wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:17 am I know StuNY responded previously verifying that 20ml works, but has anyone-tried adding more?
I tried with less (10 ml per 5 gal.) and you barely could appreciate its influence. 20 ml/5 gal. seems the lower taste threshold limit, IME. I always assumed that they were to be used in the wash, not in the spirit.
I'm not 100% sure but I believe those expensive tarpenes are to store sold agave nectar what molasses is to refined sugar. Guy from Mission21 just found a nice niche at which to even the score a bit with some crazy gringos.
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Re: My agave spirit

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Hectorlandaeta wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:05 am
8Ball wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:17 am I know StuNY responded previously verifying that 20ml works, but has anyone-tried adding more?
I tried with less (10 ml per 5 gal.) and you barely could appreciate its influence. 20 ml/5 gal. seems the lower taste threshold limit, IME. I always assumed that they were to be used in the wash, not in the spirit.
I'm not 100% sure but I believe those expensive tarpenes are to store sold agave nectar what molasses is to refined sugar. Guy from Mission21 just found a nice niche at which to even the score a bit with some crazy gringos.
I’m inclined to agree with the niche part. The taste is very similar to the raw agave. Sweet and a little “greener.” I have enough raw agave for multiple runs so after I do a baseline without terpenes, I’ll do one with the 20ml/5G dose in the ferment AND spirit, then I’ll bump it to 100ml/5G in a small 3G test ferment to see what happens.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Hectorlandaeta »

8Ball wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:43 am I’ll do one with the 20ml/5G dose in the ferment AND spirit, then I’ll bump it to 100ml/5G in a small 3G test ferment to see what happens.
Do you really like how it tastes? I mean, tequila's supposed to be a clear spirit, no? Your's would be an agave-infused tequila or something.
Anyway, I'm not into purity of styles or anything, if that floats your boat, then by all means man! Do wait a couple of weeks before blending or infusing any of your spirits as IME aging changes their character quite appreciably.
Also in my particular experience with my flute column, tails get to have and further develop a rather interesting taste, not too far removed from one spirit I once was fortunate to try "at the source", done the traditional way, cooking the whole agave 'piñas' by bagging and burying them shallowly in the desertic lands where they're harvested, pressing the stone mashed pulp with a "tamunangue" (long basket used also to press cyanogenic tapioca pulp into casava flour) and then distilled in a copper pot over hardwood coals. IME agave wash tails are good even without any alcohol in them just for that reason. Perhaps more so than the tarpene nectar. But of course, YMMV. Experimenting is where it's at in this hobby!
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Re: My agave spirit

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Hectorlandaeta wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:49 am Do you really like how it tastes? I mean, tequila's supposed to be a clear spirit, no? Your's would be an agave-infused tequila or something.
I’ve done regular all blue agave nectar (from Amazon) stripped&spirit, then aged a couple months on raw, seasoned white oak & pear wood. It tastes good, but misses the ‘tequila’ taste.

Then I read this thread on 21 Missions agave & terpenes. Have my 21M agave, SafTec Blue, & terpenes on hand but waiting on warmer weather before starting.

Do I really like how it tastes?? Dunno yet. Just trying to get as close as I can get to an agave spirit without digging up some pinas’ and cooking them myself.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: My agave spirit

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8Ball wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:12 am Have my 21M agave, SafTec Blue, & terpenes on hand but waiting on warmer weather before starting.
I think it benefits from warm temps - I'm pretty rusty so without looking at my notes I am going from memory when I say these were some of my warmest fermentations. At ~$6 bottle finished it was always good enough and cheap enough to keep slamming margaritas with homemade stuff (plus I was making my own triple sec too), unfortunately that means there's not much around to refresh my memory of how much I liked the taste, but the lack of samples is a strong indicator of success. I remember I cut it too smooth for mixing but I always felt finer in the morning than anything off the shelf.

I think I'm feeling a return to the hobby after a covid-long break and I know I've got a tote of syrup and plenty of terpenes gathering dust, and a jar of tequila yeast in the freezer, maybe it's time to sweep the floor and fire up the still again...
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by Hectorlandaeta »

8Ball wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:12 am Have my 21M agave, SafTec Blue, & terpenes on hand but waiting on warmer weather before starting.
I fermented mine in winter, but then again this winter in South Florida has been warmer than usual. Even so, I had to resort to a space heater to keep yeast chugging along. I've seen a brewer friend from upstate NY use cheap Walmart electric blankets to wrap his fermenters and it worked fine.
I've never used the Fermentis yeast but the Lallemand one gets just marginally more esteric from one extreme of the recommended temp band to the other, as I tried out with leaving a starter gallon cold and having another under the space heater's influence. That test was by undistilled taste and smell alone, but I believe I can tell the difference. But with a different yeast must surely YMMV.
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Re: My agave spirit

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StuNY wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:27 am Sounds interesting- let me know how the pine needles work out!
Also note that when I referenced the 20ml/5 gallons in the low wines the 5 gallons represent the original wash- NOT the low wines. Basically putting whatever amount you put in the original ferment into the low wines.
I wound up putting about a dozen pine needles from fresh planted baby trees into a 750ml bottle of clear agave @ 50% about 4 weeks ago. These were new growth needles in the springtime. I can verify that the taste is very good and seems to bring out a lot of the natural agave flavor. Sorta like adding a little salt with the lemon so to speak. I’ll definitely do this again.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by pope »

8Ball plenty hot these days - did you get your 21 Missions batch fermenting or is the finished product the one you put needles in? I've been removing the 2020 dust from my garage and thinking of getting things going again. With everything going on I quit cold turkey so I've got some agave and molasses vinegar I have to dump, but maybe I can live vicariously through your successes?

I have a 21 Missions jug in the corner just waiting for water and yeast, once everything is sorted I might have to get into another round....
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Re: My agave spirit

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I've got some 21 Missions Agave and Terpenes I'll be fermenting pretty soon. Interesting about the pine needles but I'll have plenty of spirits to experiment with after I get through the syrup and terpene runs... I'll do a small batch or three to start which they suggest to keep about 1.036 or so for starting gravity if I remember correctly but I'll try adding terpenes to the spirit run and maybe some other approaches to get more of a range from blanco through anejo style to maybe more of a stronger flavored mezcal..

Cheers!
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